St165 Or St185

[BP_Birmingham]

My old intrest is Supras i can rebuild them with my blind folded but ive lost intrest in them and my new intrest is the Celica GT4

As i grow up watching Group B rally cars fly round Sutton Park back in the 80s, i have an intrest in Rally cars.

I wish to mod a ST165 or ST185 but looking for which i can make fast and handle better so on.

i like the look of the ST165 but the ST185 may grow on me "if its better"

ive read the ST165 is lighter then the ST185?

How hard is it to find a ST165 that i could buy?

Which every i pick i would like to use the ST205 top end as ive read its the way to go for more power.

I also wish to take the car to Santa Pod and do afew runs when ever the jap shows are on and round rally tracks.

i would be intered in you veiw in the pros and cons of each car? "i dnt want to hear as you do on other web site about your brothers dads mate round the couner has a sister whos mother went with a guy who drove a Celica story" :meet:

i need to know the truths between the two cars?

If any of you can :hokus-pokus: a few web sites up to help me out i would be thankful for you help

[daktari]

Hiya BP. If no ones said it yet. Welcome to TOC and the Celica forum in general I cant really tell you much about the 165 i`m afraid. It`s not a car that i`ve ever felt an affinity towards.

But as far as the 185 is concerned i think it`s very much a case of try it 1st then decide. I was actually after a Supra when i found the GT4 (Or it found me) and i wasn`t really interested in it until the then owner persuaded me to take a test drive. Wow. Instant convert to the 185 cause....... I really haven`t stopped smiling since. I`ve done a few mods here and there, changed the wheels from 15`s to 17`s and now 16`s. Currently doing a few minor engine mods and bits and pieces, which means it`s off the road more than on at the moment. The ultimate plan is to use 205 engine and tranny as these are just that bit better and stronger than the 185`s. I could just uprate the present engine and box but with 125K on the clock i think i`d be looking at replacing a fair few major components. Better to buy 2nd hand low mileage and start from there.

If you want specific information then the place to go is GT4OC

The guys over there will answer pretty well any questions you`ve got.

Incidentally. In my opinion the 185 is the sexiest looking generation GT4. Theres one or two 205 owners that will disagree with that.

[BP_Birmingham]

thanks for the welcome :)

by sexy looks of st185 you mean like this

My Webpage

ST165 pics bellow to give an idera what kinda look im after

My Webpage

ive been reading down fall of the ST165 and it was cooling engine bay down and all they did to the st185 was use vent in the hood bigger intercooler,which could do in the ST165. and ST205 used water inject cooled intercooler.

Can i throw eather of these cars round on tarmac,gravel or mud at speeds of 70+ ?

ive never owned a 4WD so wouldnt know,only owned FWD and RWD which i dnt bother me doing power side,handbrake turns and other at high speed on tarmac and gravel roads.

Been looking at meets the club has had and found members pics theres one im intresting in talking to but when i search it cant find member http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/gallery/album01/acc

[daktari]

thanks for the welcome :)

by sexy looks of st185 you mean like this

My Webpage

ST165 pics bellow to give an idera what kinda look im after

My Webpage

ive been reading down fall of the ST165 and it was cooling engine bay down and all they did to the st185 was use vent in the hood bigger intercooler,which could do in the ST165. and ST205 used water inject cooled intercooler.

Can i throw eather of these cars round on tarmac,gravel or mud at speeds of 70+ ?

ive never owned a 4WD so wouldnt know,only owned FWD and RWD which i dnt bother me doing power side,handbrake turns and other at high speed on tarmac and gravel roads.

Been looking at meets the club has had and found members pics theres one im intresting in talking to but when i search it cant find member http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/gallery/album01/acc

←

Think Jons no longer a member. :( Yes these cars can be driven without mercy and take quite a lot of punishment. However, when they break, you`ll be looking at a lot of money to put `em right again. Having said that, they`re pretty robust. I`ve seen a few put through their paces at various events. You can achieve quite a lot with just a few low cost mods.

[GTForbes]

daktari's right, either car will be good, the 50:50 split of power from front to rear means that it is very stable no matter how much punishment your giving it.

as with every car their are some problem areas, the 165 i believe rust is the biggest killer :( but hte 185 has a galvanised body ;)

the 185 is the heaviest of all the GT4's but looks the best IMO

the 165 and 205 don't use a water injected intercooler it's a water cooled intercooler, which is better for cooling than the 185 interwarmer but you could get a CS/RC 185 which has the charge cooler ;)

the only times i've ever really broke traction in my four has been on snow/ ice or under hard acceleration in the wet, but then i am pretty gentle with the car most of the time as i don't earn the best of wages to pay for anythin i could break.

as for repair costs, you know toyotas and should know that they are very well over engineered, their are simple things that wear out with age but ingeneral they don't break unless modified with out proper preoration

[Cubic Incubi]

The GT4 story.

Carlos Sainz took the drivers cup in the 165. To commemorate the victory, the WRC ST185 version was produced (Carlos Sainz in Europe, RC in Japan and Group A in southern Hemisphere) to rid the car of problems the ST165 had - it has larger chargecooler, bonnet vent and revised bumper for cooling. In addition GTFours were also sold as general road going cars, with an 'Intercooler', 'bonnet scoop' and normal bumper. the general ST185 for road use is not a WRC copy. but it is 4wd and turbo'd.

Generation 6 was launched and followed with the WRC edition upgrades, chargecooler etc. All gen 6's are the same other than the WRC edition, all gen 4's are the same - it is only gen 5's which have the WRC and normal road versions - the gen 6 ST205 versions have very slight differences and arent realy worth worrying about.

In addition, the gen 5 came in wide body with bigger wheel arch bulges.

.......................

Obviously as each generation was phased out and the new introduced - certain problems that had arisen were developed out - by the time the 3rd revision 3SGTE was produced, it had a much stronger block and better head - hence it can handle 400BHP all day long. some have more than 600BHP. The main difference between the Gen 5 WRC cars and the road version is the charge cooling - ST185 road version will need a FMIC or WI to handle 260 - 300BHP effectively.

So, the first question is how do you want to appear?

In the gen 4 - you are old skool alltrac crew, and 3rd revision power can be transplanted and suspension uprated - ive yet to here of a rev 3 transplant into a st165, ots of st185 powered 165's though, in fact i'm doing one myself - I've a engine and tranny from a WRC Carlos Sainz GT4.

IMHO the gen 4 is the grandaddy - looks the best by far and started the whole thing.

I drive a 185 daily, not an rc or cs, just the road version, and its very good as an all rounder with more power than a stock 205 and only a chargecooler away from a Carlos Sainz - I was considering water injection, but theres now no point as i'm building a proper GT4, so all my modding money is going into that.

The ST205 is the grandson - a newer better tweeked carbon copy of a toyota legend.

The ST165 started it and the ST185 WRC edition won everything in its sight, it was such a great car.

the second question, how much can you afford to spend to buy it, and how much will you reserve to spend on it.

the 3rd question, in real terms, how much power do you want it to have and how fast do you expect it to be.

all must be considered before even looking at GT4's.

They drink fuel like a V8, but i expect you know that.

Expensive to maintain.

Gp 17 insurance.

Highly addictive!!!!!!! I havent had a supra, but ive had a 2.8i rwd merc and that was fun - not half as much fun though as a 4wd 4 pot screamer.

[daktari]

Highly addictive!!!!!!! I havent had a supra, but ive had a 2.8i rwd merc and that was fun - not half as much fun though as a 4wd 4 pot screamer.

I changed from a modded BMW e28 M5 Approx 320BHP to the GT4 and i know which one is more fun.

No way i`m ever going back to 2WD. :D

[Cubic Incubi]

No way i`m ever going back to 2WD.  :D     

←

definately.

I want a car I can actualy 'drive' without fearing i'm gonna be in a ditch when giving it beans. RWD is cool if you like bum wobble and clenched teeth, but for pure performance style keeping line on a road and maintaining power 4WD rules.

Anyone can go fast in a straight line. Roads however are not straight and the GT4 is a fantastic point to point vehicle and swallows up the horizon.

Its got everything, adequate power, adequate handling, adequate styling on an adequate budget.

It is so damn under rated and fairly unkown to the general motorist.

You would be very very surpised with a modified 165 - the stock is a very solid car if in good condition, a few tweaks and its gotta be a whole lotta laughs when pushing 250bhp +...

[nell boy]

I,ve got a stripped down 185[Jap import]...

There are no extra electrical bits..e.g. No elec windows,sunroof,arial,central locking etc..

As an import she comes with a couple of horse power more than the U.K cars[but no srevice history]..

The body work was great when i got her and she hadn't been fiddled with in any way[no mods]..

She drives super and has always started fist turn..Not to mention the people who've told me what a great looking car she is...

Join the GT4OC for more info,and there 'For Sale' forum is a godsend for parts..e.g

Carlos Sainz complete exhaust £30

Carlos Sainz susspension £40 ;)

Have fun with whichever one you go for,personnally the 185 has it all for me.

[BP_Birmingham]

Old skool is in my blood. 165 is 150kgs lighter than 185 in standard form? i was thinking front mounted intercooler what do you think?

im looking at and pricing steel rods forge pistons light flywheel port and blanced head unrating fueling mapable ECU bigger turbo metal head gasket uprated legs and spings it would be stripped out inside bucket seats and cage.

handling is impotant which is better 165 or 185

[Cubic Incubi]

to be honest the 165 is a great handler, but i think the 185 is more aggressive, 165 seems to handle it with ease like its no great feat whilst 185 takes it head on a hammers out the corners,.

the list you are pricing, is it for the 165 engine? it would be a very nice project but i would consider a later engine from 185 or 205.

a 185 JDM engine can take about 280BHP safely on stock block internals and cams, all you need is FMIC or Chargecooler, stage 1 CT26 turbo and a remap of the ecu, oh and bigger brakes are a must, 165 had 180bhp at the flywheel, so over 240 and the brakes definately need uprating - 165 with big brakes look cool since they have small-ish arches....

If you want to stay 165 power you will need better charge cooling, FMIC is the best option, possibly combined with WI for activation when choosing to run high boost levels.

165's running 185 engines are becoming quite popular for obvious reasons - more power and strength whilst remaining 3SGTE.

i'm aiming for around 320BHP minimum at the flywheelwith 185 CS power in the 165 - with those figures drive train loss can be forgotten about once it pounces, as they tend to do off the line and gather pace.

it sure would be cool to have another 165 project happening in the club!

[BP_Birmingham]

i was thinking on the lines of 185 block read it was stronger with 205 head and im looking at what B.H.P te block take but seems to be in head where power is that right? (still reading up) and if im changing the conrods and pistions does s make a diffance what block i use?. im looking into CT26 Turbo with TO4 compressor wheel,im still looking at Turbo upgrades so any help would be greatful.

im looking at what works best and how fast or times do after upgrades, i dnt want to spend £1,000 to gain couple of B.H.P when i can spend the money on Brakes to less the braking point.

I like the idea of point to point speed. im not someone who daydreams of doing 200mph

thank you for your help :)

[GT4 BOOSTER]

Hiya BP. If no ones said it yet. Welcome to TOC and the Celica forum in general    I cant really tell you much about the 165 i`m afraid. It`s not a car that i`ve ever felt an affinity towards.

But as far as the 185 is concerned i think it`s very much a case of try it 1st then decide. I was actually after a Supra when i found the GT4 (Or it found me) and i wasn`t really interested in it until the then owner persuaded me to take a test drive. Wow. Instant convert to the 185 cause....... I really haven`t stopped smiling since. I`ve done a few mods here and there, changed the wheels from 15`s to 17`s and now 16`s. Currently doing a few minor engine mods and bits and pieces, which means it`s off the road more than on at the moment. The ultimate plan is to use 205 engine and tranny as these are just that bit better and stronger than the 185`s. I could just uprate the present engine and box but with 125K on the clock i think i`d be looking at replacing a fair few major components. Better to buy 2nd hand low mileage and start from there.

If you want specific information then the place to go is GT4OC

The guys over there will answer pretty well any questions you`ve got.

Incidentally. In my opinion the 185 is the sexiest looking generation GT4. Theres one or two 205 owners that will disagree with that.     

←

the 185 is a good looking motor no doubt about that , i wanted a st205 as its a more modern car aimed at the younger driver :P :P

[daktari]

Best i get something more befitting my age then.........

[Cubic Incubi]

185 block with 205 head has been done, i can't however define the exact specifications of required additional work required, i suggest a trip to GT4OC to get the exact info from those who have the 3sgte hybrids - that sounds like a very good plan and sound like an excellent project :D

[BP_Birmingham]

i read up on what it intails to make the 205 head fit on a 185. i also know i may be needing to strip the engine loom and start a fresh which is esay enough.

The Question is do i start a new thread or carry on with this one? as i would like to go into detail building a competition car from bare Shell and bare block.

[BP_Birmingham]

going back to all 165 being the same.

Does this mean that i can strip a FWD 165 of every nut and bolt and and fit the 165 GT4 bit on?

i plan on striping a car and have a roll cage fitting then spayed, whilest i work on stripping the engine ready for moding.

im thinking hill climbing, sprint racing and rallying and its the rally rules ive to read up on.

Did you know theres a GT4 165 that won the Welsh Sprint raicing? If that anyone on here or reading this can you leave a message as ive looked on the net for you but with on joy so far.

ive made a list of how much i can mod a bottom end and its £1003 -steel crank.

[james_corolla_cuthbertson]

Hi BP_Brimingham,

I have a 165 and thought I'd offer my opinion!

If you are looking to purchase - as people have said, look for rust - being the earliest GT4 they have had plenty more time to rust, plus the rust protection is not a patch on the more recent toyota treatments.

Pros:

Lighter as standard, less to strip to make it lighter

Cheapest to aqquire in the first place - don't feel so bad tearing it all apart!

The original GT4!

Not so many (often over-priced and ineffective) bolt-ons - so not so tempted to take the easy, but expensive root!

The cons are just about everything else, but of particular note, the stock brakes are woeful for a such a fast, heavy car!

From what you say, you seem to want to build a full-on competition vehicle, in which case you should consider the full TTE parts list as, depending on the rules you may have to keep the 165 spec parts such as block and head, which limits your options. So although there are better cranks, rods, pistons and heads out there today, the TTE prepared cars were the 165s that won rallys! Group A has always been limited to 300hp and 1200kg so, you can reach those figures easily with the stock car, but to make it reliable go for the top bits. The other thing is the gear and transfer boxes - they are the weakest of all GT4s so with a competition car, they will have to go especially in a rally application where the engine should be tuned for torque (group A cars were putting out 400+ftlbs depending on the particular stage) otherwise lots of things will get snapped. Think the group A box was a 6-speed getrag unit.

The weight distribution of the car (very important contributary factor in the handling!) is approx 60:40 front-rear - mainly due to the transverse arrangement of the drivetrain, so it very easy to lose weight at the back, but much harder to lose a proportional amount from the front. You may end up with a very nose-heavy car, which may suit your driving style, but might not.

The suspension setup is pretty conventional (independent McPherson all-round), but effective. The later cars had the super-strut system, which although great on the road (I assume!) - TTE had difficulty getting it to work reliably in competition (in the st205 I believe), swapping back to the conventional setup for some stages.

To be fair there is not much difference between the 165 and 185 when you're preparing a competition vehicle because you should be replacing everything with the good stuff anyway!

As for the 205 head, it lends itself to a much fatter torque output because of the smaller diameter inlet ports - port velocity! The casting itself is very good quality and flows extremely well especially compared with the early 165 head - so it can also support much higher top-end outputs. Still room for improvement thought, so get your die-grinder out!

You seem confused about what you actually want your car for - decide exactly what you want from it and read the rules because these will tell you what you can get away with and ultimately how much you will have to spend. If you just want a fairly-good street-strip machine then there is simply no need for steel cranks etc - these are just for reliability in extremly harsh driving conditions!

As for ECU/Loom, you'll need a programmable unit, so you will be starting from stratch anyway.

Finally, the 162 (fwd) and 165 (4wd) shells are similar, but unsure if you could build a gt4 from the 162 Shell (provisions for rear diff, prop tunnel etc) although, seeing as most of the drivetrain will go in the bin then it would be a cheaper option!

Sorry I went on for so long, hope it's helped!

James

[Cubic Incubi]

wouldnt be worth converting a fwd 162 into awd.

just find a decent 165 with no chassis corosion and use that as the project car.

[Hardcore-starlet]

just find a decent 165 with no chassis corosion and use that as the project car.

Yeah but whats the chances of that!

All 80's Toyotas suffer form alot of corrosion, i know.

[nell boy]

ST185...Nuff said

Galvanised body

Scobby bashing/Audi tt mashing/Evo eating beauty on wheels

NOT 'ARF POP PICKERS..LET'S ROCK ;)

[BP_Birmingham]

Hi James no it wasnt to much just gave me things to think about. i cnt find anything about Rally Group specs and what is aloud due to not having a lot of time to search for them. I would like to Rally a Celica but was told it would cost alot of money to Rally? other things i like are Sprint and hill climbing,i like things that have lots of corners. nose front heavy im used to with the mk3 Supra.

Ive been asking people who i meet which Celica do you like or would you own. So far 100% have said Gen4.

I know people go on about rot on the gen4 but my FWD Gen4 had rot till i got the welder out now its solid.

[FlatOverCrest]

Dear All,

Newbie here! and interestingly this post may interest BP as I have just bought a GT4 Rally Car...Project ongoing! See my main post!

Regards All

NDC

[Cubic Incubi]

my 87 'D' reg Gen 4 Tarag Celica is rust 95% free, all body panels are rust free. chassis is spotless.

My 89 'G' reg Gen 4 GT4 Celica is 90% rust free, 5% in normal body panels, wheels arches, top of window pillars, sun roof (to be welded up any way for Shell rigidity) and the rest spread about chassis and components.

She's getting fully sttripped to a Shell, new brake and fuel lines, petrol tank is plastics, grind, weld, sand, bondo, roll cage, undercoat, first color coat, second color coat, suspension, hubs, brakes etc, rebuild steering rack, drop in fully rebuilt CS gearbox and CS rev 2 3SGTE w MHG, arp headware, Cams uprated for low down torque and fast delivery of results, plugs, leads, dizzy, starter, inlet manifold ported, rail, injectors, fuel pump, catch can, vac lines, rad hosing, bigger rad, FMIC, enahust manifold, down pipe, exhaust, Turbo able at 1.6 bar, water injection, Nitrous Oxide, external wastgate, Battery relocation to boost, big fire extinguisher, straight intake, remove AFM, cold ait box with ram air, additional bonnett vents, final gloss color coat and laquer, few sets of wheels with tyres for diffferent events, bucket seats for Me and the Wife and a big grin.

Then once the car has been measured and had fun with, the original engine will go back in which over time will be fully rebuilt with uprated internals and hardware. 'Proper' gear box. Bigger grin.

Motoring mayhem and laughs to the finish line, probably all for under £15K for the entire project build and original engine rebuild. Most of the labour will be done by myself.

Cheers

:D