Thank Goodness We're Not Buying In The States...

[alanbradley]

As above... it's long, but well worth reading.

Thank goodness it's not happened over here yet!

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/artic...62/article.html

A

[Moffmo]

damn read the first two pages, will print it off and read it later

[scionic]

Read that a long time ago.

Are you sure that doesn't happen there?

Doesn't really matter all that much because you still pay more for cars than we do in the end and not all dealers are like that here, beleive me.

Actually the "Scion" dealers work on the same principle as Saturn does. The price is set like it would be on a toaster oven or a TV. There are no creative add-ons or aggressive haggling on either side. My car said $14,250 on the window. I added satellite radio as my only option for $500. I paid $14,750 plus tax, that's it, which incidentally would barely get you a 1.0 liter base model Yaris there.

There are lots of evil salesmen and dealers here, it's just up to you not to be a moron and fall for their lies and manipulation. On every car before this one I simply did my homework, found out dealers actual cost and decided on a price in my mind. Go in for the car and tell them what I am willing to pay, if they try to play games I give them one more chance, then I leave.

Very easy to avoid all that nonsense detailed in the article really.

[alanbradley]

Now for years I thought "we pay more for cars, its not fair" but recently I've realised that we pay more for cars than in the uS not because we're getting totally ripped off by the manufacturers, but because we actually get better cars.

When I say "better" I mean better engineered, more sophisticated and better assembled vehicles with more features (not necessarily more equipment like a fancy radio, but less "headline" stuff like sliding rear seats and a trip computer). I say this having compared the comments of US Echo and Canadian Echo and Echo HB drivers with my/our own experience of what should be similar cars.

I'm not saying the cars sold in the US are crap - they're jus not the bargains they used to be ;)

A

[scionic]

Uh well Alan...I paid the equivalent of 8,080 pounds for my car and it's got the 1.5 liter, power windows/doors, air conditioning, ABS, traction control, stability control, electronic brake distribution, 160 watt 6 speaker satellite radio with an MP3 capable CD player and an immobilize/alarm with remote control key fob. And it's built in Japan and top quality. In fact the xB is a bit nicer than the bB they get in Japan.

What does the least expensive Yaris 1.0 come with? As I remember air conditioning isn't even standard.

I'm not sure what you think is different about what we get here. There are a few isolated cases. The Echo didn't come with everything your Yari do, but then again all the Echo's came with the 1.5 liter standard and started at just a shade over 5,000 pounds.

The majority of cars are the same except for minor options differences and we generally get the more powerful engines as standard.

I can guarantee you in they don't build special "less well engineered" and downgraded quality versions of every car made just for the US market. We got the Echo simply because Americans don't usually like hatchbacks. Generally speaking though, the economy/entry level cars sold in Europe and the UK are available with more options then they are here. For example you never see SAT NAV as an option on inexpensive cars here.

[Red Yaris 54]

Very interesting reading..........................................I am not so sure that it is not happening over here already.............but of course, not at Toyota dealerships ;)

[alanbradley]

Least expensive Yaris model in the UK:-

Toyota Yaris T2

Standard Equipment:-

998cc engine

3 Doors, Seats 5 (3 on sliding rear seat, all with 3-point seatbelts)

ABS and EBD

Power Steering

Drivers Airbag

No Aircon

Radio Cassette (2 speaker)

Engine Immobiliser

13" wheels with trims

Heated rear window

Rear Window wash/wipe standard

Manual Locking

Transponder engine immobiliser

Security etched windows

Rear Foglamp, electric headlight levelling

Map lights

Trip Computer

3 Year, 60,000 mile warranty

12 year, unlimited mileage anti-corrosion warranty

Cost: £7,295 on the road (ie including taxes, registration plate, 1st registration fee, blah, blah, blah) (that's USD13,375)

It should be possible to buy this car, with all taxes and registration included for £6,880 (USD12,614)

Toyota Echo HB 3dr (Canada, the closest spec vehicle I could find in North America)

Standard Equipment:-

1496cc engine

3 doors, Seats 4 (2 on "fixed" rear seat, both with 3-point seatbelts)

ABS

"Manual" Steering

Driver and front passenger airbags

No Aircon

Radio Cassette (2 speaker)

14" Wheels with trims

Heated rear window

Rear window wash/wipe optional

Manual Locking

No Anti-theft system (Not even as part of an option package)

No Etched Windows

No rear fog lamp

No map lights

Clock

3 Year, 37,000mile Warranty

5 Year, unlimited mileage anti-corrosion warranty

Cost:-CAD12,995 (USD10,266) plus taxes, meaning that in Ontario (picked as I know people who live there) you're looking at is being 12,995+1,010+registration (don't know how much that is...) CAD14,005 (USD11,064) I hope you realise how hard it was to find that number in amongst all of the vearious lease options (see the original link <_< )

Here's my source for the echo Toyota Echo HB spec and for the Yaris I worked my way through the Build a Car choosing the lowest spec for everything...

Phew... that was a marathon of research, but the essential outcome (as I see it) is that, apart from a bigger engine and a passenger airbag the specs for the 2 show that the Canadian Echo HB is of a lower spec than the equivalent base model here in the UK. Admittedly the canadian car is a couple of hundred pounds cheaper but there's only a few hundred dollars price difference - one that can be explained by the spec difference.

As I said, they're not the bargains they used to be ;)

A

[scionic]

Ah, OK. I can see what you mean there.

I think what threw me was the bit about "better engineered, more sophisticated and better assembled vehicles"

That's the part I don't agree with and I'm not clear on what your basis for that is. <_<

We don't get the Echo hatchback here though, you're right. The closest thing would be the Ist/Scion xA which is functionally nothing more than a 4 door Yaris hatchback in a slightly different shape.

That comes with everything I listed for my car, except for the alarm, stability control and Electronic Brake Distribution for 7,150 pounds

Like I said though, European and UK buyers expect a higher standard spec for subcompact cars because people of much higher income buy them there then do here. The Scions actually have an unusually high spec for such cars here in the U.S. where their equipment level would be just about average there.

As another basis for comparison, a T-spirit Yaris Verso which is mechanically identical my car in a more aerodynamic shape is 12,270 pounds.

For 4000 pounds less than the T-spirt Verso I get everything it comes with (minus foglights) but PLUS the 1.5 liter engine, stability control, a much better stereo with satellite radio, 15" wheels and a stiffer suspension with a thicker rear anti-sway bar.

A little "apples to oranges" but these are quite literally the same car except for shape.

[alanbradley]

Ryan,

You're right about that comment, I've wondered about it since I typed it... What I was trying to say s that there's a greated "detail" to the engineering of our models. I don't really know how to explain it, but its things like the mechanism for sliding the rear seats in a Yaris, the fact that they include a trip computer and the digital instruments rather than analogue dials - the little bits that add expense without actually being 100% necessary.

I still haven't explained that very well, but I hope you can see what I mean. As an product designer and as an engineer I think of these things as "better engineered". As regards "better assembled" I am comparing the quality issues of things breaking and falling off with the experiences of the people on Echodrivers - they really do seem to have quality issues that just aren't there in the Yarii belonging to TOC members.

I hope that clears those points up - I understand there's a certain amount of backpedalling and re-phrasing on my part

Alan

[Demonic Angel]

Hmmm dont like the sound of that at all!

Still - it kinda reminds me of that exposee done on Yes Car Credit - I knew they were bad before it and now I really know and I would never ever buy a car from them if my life depended on it!

Its not just America though - high pressure sales is everywhere.

[Al J]

The majority of Canadian Echo hb drivers I've spoken to via the Net would kill for a similarly specced Echo to the Yaris sold over here. OK, the T2 is the base model here but not badly kitted out for all that. Go up the Yaris range and you start to get many features that are only available, if at all, on the highest spec model over there. Trip computer, digital dash, electric windows, leather steering wheel and gearknob. alloys. Colour coordinated door mirrors, bumpers with integrated protection strips, range meter, etc. There are differences, subtle as some may be and it would seem that the quality is lower on our US friends' sedans in particular.

By the way, scionic, the Scion bB is not just a Yaris with appalling dress sense. It is a different vehicle albeit with some common mechanical parts. The number of US sedan owners wishing they could get the hatchback and are now keeping their fingers crossed because it seems they may be getting the new mkII Yaris/Vitz would indicate that they don't see the Scion as a viable and suitable alternative either.

To not get that point, is to probably miss what owning a Yaris is all about.

[Moffmo]

errr

Scionic.... you cant get the tsport?

right?

[scionic]

errr

Scionic.... you cant get the tsport?

right?

←

All Echo's come with the 1.5 liter here. They don't have the lowered chassis though.

We don't get the 1.0 or 1.3 models because American's will not buy something that slow I'm afraid.

[scionic]

The majority of Canadian Echo hb drivers I've spoken to via the Net would kill for a similarly specced Echo to the Yaris sold over here. OK, the T2 is the base model here but not badly kitted out for all that. Go up the Yaris range and you start to get many features that are only available, if at all, on the highest spec model over there. Trip computer, digital dash, electric windows, leather steering wheel and gearknob. Alloys. Colour coordinated door mirrors, bumpers with integrated protection strips, range meter, etc. There are differences, subtle as some may be and it would seem that the quality is lower on our US friends' sedans in particular.

By the way, scionic, the Scion bB is not just a Yaris with appalling dress sense. It is a different vehicle albeit with some common mechanical parts. The number of US sedan owners wishing they could get the hatchback and are now keeping their fingers crossed because it seems they may be getting the new mkII Yaris/Vitz would indicate that they don't see the Scion as a viable and suitable alternative either.

To not get that point, is to probably miss what owning a Yaris is all about.

←

I know what my car is. It's my car. It's obviously not a Yaris.

I do know there is a small contingent of Echo fans who want the Vitz to come to the U.S. but considering Toyota sold about 4,000 Echo's last year here, it doesn't seem likely. Especially considering there are no significant differences between the Scion xA and the Vitz it would be redundant to offer both I'd think.

I think the problem I have with some of the subtle suggestion made here is that it's being implied that we get cars of lesser quality here and that is b*sh*t I'm afraid. It's possible there are some small differences between the Echo and Yaris, but the Japan built Echo gets consistently high ratings and the people whining for a Yaris have probably never even had the chance to compare them side by side. It's a moot point really. I was talking about all cars anyway, not just the Yaris/Echo. Surely you don't think everything we get is a lower quality, poorly engineered shadow of what YOU get.

It's nice that you get trip computers and color keyed this and that but it doesn't make the car "better engineered" or "better quality" simply because Toyota includes some extra features (of debateable usefulness) to justify the higher prices you pay. It's called plugging some extra gadgets into the same chassis. Aside from the sliding rear seat (which wouldn't make sense in a car with a boot like the Echo) there aren't any significant engineering differences. If it makes you feel better that you paid more for your car to say it's "better engineered" and "better quality" then be my guest, I suppose.

Color coordinated mirrors and a trip computer may be worth an extra few thousand to you but they aren't to most Americans. Gasoline is cheap here so if we really want features, we just go upmarket. There isn't much of a market for inexpensive subcompact cars with lots of features here. No one cares, I'm afraid, with the exception of a handful of Echo nuts on the internet. When you can go and buy a more powerful, more comfortable Corolla or Camry for the same price you all pay for a car that barely fits 4 adults and a backpack, why would you fret over the trip computer or leather steering wheel in a tiny commuter car?

It's a different market here, that's all.

People who buy Echo's here want a very inexpensive car. If you want a luxury compact you buy a VW GTI or a Mini or something.

[Puls]

We don't get the 1.0 or 1.3 models because American's will not buy something that slow I'm afraid.

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Its because we don't want to die merging onto the interstate ;)

[scionic]

We don't get the 1.0 or 1.3 models because American's will not buy something that slow I'm afraid.

←

Its because we don't want to die merging onto the interstate ;)

←

Exactly.

14 second 0-60 doesn't cut it here. You'd be run over 10 soccer mom's in SUV's with 5 times the power to weight ratio within mere seconds.

My car is acceptable, but really anything with much less than 100 bhp here had better be a motorcycle.

[Avensis wagon]

The price quality thing -- UK-US. Would it be possible that cars bought in the US are cheaper because of tax?

Over here we pay about 100% tax on cars. They often come into port with nothing on them and they fit the extras afterwards to keep down import duty. Due to our high tax, the manufacturers used to sell them to port at a special lower rate, but the EU is stopping that this autumn (good time to buy now!). To give you an idea, a 2 litre Avensis Wagon with specification like a T3x with a bit extra, or a T Spirit without the electronic seats and xenon lights, is up for 33,100 euros + 600 delivery. And that's without any of the other costs of kitting it out.

The article was a good read. No surprises and nothing really horrible, though it is a pity that a naive person against a crooked dealer could be ripped off for thousands. At the end of the day, the dealer wants the best price for his car and the buyer wants the lowest price. It's simply a matter of meeting half way. Open, friendly and honest does work with a good dealer, and never buy the same day. Salesmen love to keep the momentum going, but it took me two weeks of getting back until it was me that wanted to keep things moving.

In the same way that the dealers in the article blame the boss during negotiations to avoid conflict, I did the same using my wife. I negotiated alone, but phoned my wife every now and again so that the bad news came from elsewhere and the dealer never actually had anyone one to negotiate hard against. E.g. "Yeh it looks pretty good, but my wife is a bit worried about the cost", or later on "Mmmm, I think she'd be convinced if it had the CD changer". When I felt that the dealer had made reasonable concessions, I phoned my wife, told her what was now on the table and that I felt the salesman had made a good effort and was it only fair to sign. Everyone was a winner -- the saleman sold his car and no doubt made a good profit, and I felt that I had a deal that was perhaps above average.

[scionic]

I think that is the beauty of the way Toyota does business with it's Scion division in the United States.

GM's Saturn is the only other company I have heard of doing this.

Cars should be sold like EVERY other appliance. The price is the price. No game playing as that always works against the consumer. Set a fair and competitive price. Put it on the window. That is what the car costs. End of story!

As I said, when I bought my car, the price on the window was $14,250. I added a stereo with satellite receiver for $500. Price was $14,750. They wrote it down clearly and on ONE piece of paper. I paid taxes and license fee and that was it. Done.

I test drove, insured, purchased and drove the car home in just under an hour!

THAT is how it should be done.

Can you imagine haggling over the price of a television? Some people pay $1100 for it, others pay $700? Ridiculous. I don't know why people have tolerated it for so long.

The taxes you guys pay on cars are absurd too. Even in the U.K. You've got people who's income and social status say they should be driving a nice comfortable saloon but they are forced into a tiny car by oppressive taxes on automobiles and petrol. You need a revolution over there.

[alanbradley]

I actually agree... The trouble is that the only company who've tried this in the UK were Daewoo. They were lacklustre (actually, to start with they were crap) products and overpriced so naturally they bombed...

About time someone else tried it...

A

PS Revolition's a good idea but the problem is that we're just not genetically programmed for it...

"I say old chap, would you mind stepping aside as you're making a frightful job?"

"No!"

"Oh well, that's a jolly shame..."

The French, however...

[Puls]

We don't get the 1.0 or 1.3 models because American's will not buy something that slow I'm afraid.

←

Its because we don't want to die merging onto the interstate ;)

←

Exactly.

14 second 0-60 doesn't cut it here. You'd be run over 10 soccer mom's in SUV's with 5 times the power to weight ratio within mere seconds.

My car is acceptable, but really anything with much less than 100 bhp here had better be a motorcycle.

←

Well, I've survived freeway traffic in my sub-2000lb. Pulsar that only has 69hp and a 3-speed auto :(

But I wont' be doing that again.

[Bibbs]

Worringly I have to agree with our yankie friend on something ;) ..

The US get cheaper cars, they quite often have a higher car per houshold ratio than people per house hold. Over there cars are cheap because of the culture, cars are freedom and driving is NOT a crime. Cars are *almost* a disposable item.

Over here we get ripped off .. plain and simple.

Cars should be sold like EVERY other appliance. The price is the price. No game playing as that always works against the consumer. Set a fair and competitive price. Put it on the window. That is what the car costs. End of story!

But I don't agree about the marked price being it. I haggle over everything .. including toasters and kettle .. 20% off if I buy both? How much for cash?

[scionic]

I've haggled on my last 4 cars and did quite well because I am assertive and I do my research, but the process is dreadful and dealing with salesmen on their home turf always puts you at a disadvantage. For every person like you or me who knows what a reasonable price is, won't budge and is willing to walk out of the store after 2 hours or arguing, there are 50 people who will be manipulated and ripped off in the end. I say the whole system needs to go.

Forget dealerships. I'd like to be able to specify and order my exact car from the factory on the Internet and then pick it up at the worthless dealer. The dealer should be a pick-up point for new cars and a repair and service center, nothing more. They should have no business in selling the cars. They are obsolete.

[Bibbs]

Vauxhall (GM) have something like that .. where (I think) they will deliver the car to your door, to you spec etc .. shame all their cars are pony ..

I can't afford a new car, so I'll be dabbling in the 2nd hand market for years to come.

Don't know how people can take that 50% depreciation hit in the first 3 years .. I'd cry :D

[scionic]

Vauxhall (GM) have something like that .. where (I think) they will deliver the car to your door, to you spec etc .. shame all their cars are pony ..

I can't afford a new car, so I'll be dabbling in the 2nd hand market for years to come.

Don't know how people can take that 50% depreciation hit in the first 3 years .. I'd cry :D

←

Toyota's don't depreciate that much.

It's an unusual case, but Scion's are such a good value new and so popular that I can turn around and sell my 1 year old one now for what I paid for it quite easily.

Even non-Scion Toyota's hold their value very well.

It's always a better financial decision to buy used. Buying new is an emotional decision. For me, I don't trust someone else to break a car in properly, I'm a bit particular about that. I don't want someone else's leftovers if I can avoid it. Silly, I know. Like I said it's more of an emotional decision than a financial one.

[Bibbs]

and the cars I want to drive are either too damn expensive or no longer made .. I *have* to buy 2nd hand ..

I know what you mean about the depreciation on some cars .. Mini's are an example of a car you could drive for a few years and lose almost nothing.