Turbo Junkies

[Cubic Incubi]

:P

This thread is for Turbo junkies, those who defy the laws of gravity and dont mind their kidney's being thrown into the back seat and hanging on for dear life.

Lets talk about Turbo's, because they are better than s*x

Want one - Got one - doesnt matter, you 'need' one ;)

You can put a Turbo on ANY car within reason and if you are willing to give it the supporting modfications that it definately will require.

Luckily, there's plenty of turbo's on Celica's allready - some of which can run 10 seconds in the quarter mile - and thats Ferrari territory

lets see how long we can make this thread last, I hope for it to be here in another years time and be the best TOC turbo thread Evar (oh, and it will be in the Celica forum, not Supra forum <_< ) :P

Ever wondered what a Turbo car looks like when approaching in your rear view mirror?

A bit like this

This is a simple turbo

When I first bought my GT4 4x4 Turbo Celica - I had already owned a nitrous'd celica, a Turbo volvo, a 2.0 Saab, V6i Mazda and six pot 2.8i merc over the 4 years prior, and all the talk of detonation and such like had me afraid to put the throttle down. I drove it carefully for 3 days then went to a GT4OC track day and hammered the throttle til the turbo came on full song with about 270BHP to the flywheel - it was heaven - I'd never had so much fun, like a train on rails, ripping up the road out of the corners I was hooked from day 1.

Some say there is no replacement for displacement - well i've sampled displacement and a Turbo is more aggressive and doesnt run out like nitrous and doesnt take ages like a supercharger - Its the best bang for buck around - and you know you want some ;)

So who wants to kick off and don't be scared, feel the Force.

please do however consider that we don't want to here any 'dangerous' stories of driving on public roads. :!Removed!:

[Bibbs]

[Cubic Incubi]

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Whats up Bibbs?

You obviously havent got a big enough turbo ;)

Daktari, get yersel on this thread mate :)

lets discuss the options between hybrid and pure aftermarket

[GT4 BOOSTER]

first drive of my gt4 i shat myself.really awesome.god knows what a bit of modding of the boost is like.it must be real heavenly.

[Bibbs]

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Whats up Bibbs?

You obviously havent got a big enough turbo ;)

Daktari, get yersel on this thread mate :)

lets discuss the options between hybrid and pure aftermarket

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I've got a gen2 CT26B and a CT26A (Hybrid) ..

What's the problem?

[jerry phipps]

Got to admit having a turbo car is cool. Just hearing the turbo spool up it's music to my ears. Sometimes i dont even bover with the stereo as i want to just hear the turbo spool up all the time

jerry!!

[Cubic Incubi]

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You obviously havent got a big enough turbo ;)

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I've got a gen2 CT26B and a CT26A (Hybrid) ..

What's the problem?

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I havent got a problem mate, as you can see from the wink it was jest. ;)

Which stage hybrid is it and can you explain what its like, lag etc if any, which boost control are you running? much better than just posting an eyes rolling smiley then stating what you run ;) at least it's adding to the topic. Join in mate, it's fun.

CT26a and CT26b ? We dont use those terms on the GT4, is the CT26a the same as series 2 3sgte stock, and ct26b series 3?

I don't come on toc often, been around for a year and decided to eventualy pay up. So i'll be around for a long time yet but with greater input.

And, off topic, is it possible you can send me a PM (I assume you will know) with links to MR2 UK Club forums please as I have something which may be of interest to share with the MR2 community with regards to our ranges being axed from the new Toyota line up.

I guess theres lots of views and feelings floating around in the communities at the moment and I have a few thoughts to share.

Cheers.

GT4Booster, your set up will support 300bhp all day long on that ct20 and if you thought stock is pants splitting, with a few simple adjustments and thats another matter entirely mate. Are you going to play with it or are you happy stock? I'm all for stock mate, Ive got nowt against the good examples of stock cars. I know it aint all about modifying.

As I've said, I tested a stock WRC JDM Faff and found it lacking, but obviously I realise the car has a proven scope for monster power and 9 second 1/4 miles.

Cheers.

Jerry, when the turbo comes on song it is the sweetest music, which is why I NEVER bother with Ice installs, the car makes enough music for my ears.

What's it like in a Mrtwo to have to singer just behind you head.?

you know, I really should have a go in one to find out for myself

Catch you guys tommorow

cheers

[jerry phipps]

It's great mate. having the turbo just behind your head is awesome mate. You can hear everything mate. Down side just a little bit warm in the car on long drives ;)

jerry!!

[GT4 BOOSTER]

stock suits me , gotta a mortgage and a few debts for now to pay off first.

[Bibbs]

CT26B is the twin entry turbo of the gen2 3S-GTE .. 56mm intake (IIRC) the CT26A is the single entry turbo off the 7M-GTE (Mkiii Supra). 72mm intake and a load more power (about 10%). You can swap the exhaust housings so you have the same spool, but more power.

Never got the CT26A turbo on the MR2. Decided to buy an S2000 instead. The turbo is going on an ST185 soon though.

The general UK MR2 forums are:

IMOC.co.uk

MR2OC.co.uk

MR2ROC.org

mr2mk1club.com

[Cubic Incubi]

Thanks for that Bibbs, greatly appreciated Iive never heard them described as a/b etc so its good to know how the MR2 camp call stuff.

Celica orientated these are the turbo's in use on the GT4's

165 CT26

185 CT26

205 CT20

165 turbo is single entry waste gate, 185 is twin entry

It is worth noting that the 205 CT20 is a CT26 with a larger compressor housing, reports of the size being 47-49mm (I have not personaly measured one so cannot confirm) also comes with either a ceramic or steel compressor dependant on the model UK/JDM/WRC.

The CT20 body has no identifying features and got its name from the CT20 used by TTE on both the ST205 and Corolla WRC versions.

It is speculated that this is a hybrid turbo from 80's stock which was used on other Toyotas. Nobody knows for certain, except TTE I guess, pictures of the engine bays seem very slim, however I have found information relating to a highly respected USA company who seen the Corrola and confirms it is definately not the same Turbo as the stock ST205 - and since then for some reason the ST205 stock Turbo has been called the CT20 or CT20b series for identification and should not be confused with the real CT20.

The ST205 turbo can be used as an upgrade for the ST185 for those who want Stage 3 CT26 power without the cost as the size of the housing more or less the same.

cheers

[Cubic Incubi]

CT26B is the twin entry turbo of the gen2 3S-GTE .. 56mm intake (IIRC) the CT26A is the single entry turbo off the 7M-GTE (Mkiii Supra). 72mm intake and a load more power (about 10%).

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just re-read that, the turbo on the revision 2 3SGTE on the celica is about a 38mm compressor turbine?

when you say gen 2 do you mean 2nd edition MR2 with the revision 3 3SGTE?

Also I was under the impression the MK3 Supra compressor turbine was even smaller again? perhaps I assuming it was twin turbo and am considering 3 cylinder per turbo?

When you say intake, is that the diameter of the internal face, of the section the intake hose is clamped to? or do you mean the compressor turbine?

Perhaps GT4 speak and Mr2 speak is different.

Anyway, I'm really interested to learn more about what turbo's other Toyota's use. It's no fun just looking up specs on the net as it aint interactive.

Cheers.

[sotal]

I had a turbo in my last car, but my n/a 1.8 Celica is much faster. That must mean turbos are rubbish :P

Before you ask my last car was a 306 Dturbo! ;)

[gordypix]

Thanks Karl - Was having a nice quiet day in the sunshine sipping Pimms & Lemonade then you had to go and mention TURBOS................

NOW..............

I WANT ONE..................

[daktari]

Off you go and get one then... The shops are still open.

Now then, where were we... Ah yes TURBOS.... Love `em. Understand the principle but not the fine detail, Such as blade angles and stuff. Whats an external wastegate? What advantages can be gained by modifying stock? Arrgggghhh So many questions...

[gordypix]

Another fine idea but alas - my local shop draws the line at newspapers and fine bags of Maltesers................They are fresh out of Turbo's............

[dawesy]

yup. i was always against tubbies, too expensive to maintain etc, until i drove one. NOW im hooked big time.

CT series seem to be ok but hybrids never seem to last long. my stg 3 CT20 had a knackered thrust bearing after only 8,000 miles (may have had somthing to do with anti-lag).

soon to be replaced with a TD06 20G which should only have as musch lag as a CT20 but flow enough for over 450bhp. i'll let you know.

oh by the way its got an external wastegate and a screemer pipe too :)

[Cubic Incubi]

Love `em. Understand the principle but not the fine detail, Such as blade angles and stuff. Whats an external wastegate? What advantages can be gained by modifying stock? Arrgggghhh So many questions...   

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Modifying stock.

i'll use a example you can associate with.

Take a ct26 twin entry internal wastegate, take the compressor housing (aluminium intake side of the turbo) and open up the internal dimension to take a larger compressor turbine (the spinning wheel that looks like a fan) you then have a larger volumetric area in which to compress the air - so it doesnt get as hot - making it more thermally efficient abling less boost to be used for the same results, with the option of turning up the boost way beyond stock capabilities, with the correct levels of charge cooling.

The amount of air you can pass through the throttle body is the 'mass flow' how efficient that is is the 'thermal efficiency' and how well it is used in the combustion cycle mixed with fuel to make the charge + with regards to compression characteristics and valve timing is its volumetric efficiency. in simple terms.

the old suck, squeeze, bang, blow, suck, squeeze, bang, blow - happening again and again can soon get pretty ineficient.

get the formulae right is far more important than the name on the side of the turbo.

Too much boost on a little turbo cooks the oil lubricated bearing seals of the shaft from exhaust turbine to compressor turbine and knackers the turbo, heat can crack the iron section of the exhaust turbinr housing, water ways, down pipe, wastegate etc.

So a hybrid (modified stock) is a good idea. but like I have mentioned, a ST205 turbo is the same compressor size as a stage 3 CT26 hybrid.

the hybrid often use garret internals.

For even better efficiency the exhaust side turbine blades can be clipped.

I dont think the angle of the blades needs to be worried about too much, although it is something that I have yet to consider, therefore may be of high relevance.

What I look for in a Turbo is its compressor size and wastegate characteristics.

External Wastegate.

look at the diagram in my first post, the section labled 'valve assembly' is where our twin entry wastegates are, at the given vac line pressure the actuator moves the arm and opens the wastgate - which allows the hot gases to enter the exhaust turbine housing and spins the turbine, turning the shaft and spinning the compressor turbine.

An external wastgate is not part of the exhaust side of the turbo but is an additional component bolted on. simple as that and does the same thing. just with more bits bolted together.

when you are looking into maximum efficiency, you will find that bearings for the shaft that turns the compressor are much better if they are ball bearings in stead of a normal alloy coated bearing (just like bottom end shells) the ball bearing turbos are far more efficient and last far longer - because at the end of the day, a bigger compressor or an external wastegate is only as good as the bearings.

Dependant on the application though.

Over engineering is OK to a point, never 'using' the inherant characteristics of the uprated components seems a waste.

got power - use it, need less - buy less uprated. at least that's one way to look at it - if you dont use it, then sell it, I can gurantee you somebody else will use it instead.

hope that helps.

hit me up with any questions - cheers

[daktari]

Note to Gordy... Can we make this thread a sticky? :D

[sxb182]

Went from a st 182 to st205, babbed my pants 1st time put boot down.

Constant grin factor ever since, few moddin bits n bit extra power just to top it off, an absolute dream.

Oh n theres nowt like 'dumpin' when passin lil chavs :D

[LORD_ED]

just looking forward to getting the 185 on the road at moment with bibbs old turbo just need a fmic now and cheaply any suggestions

[Cubic Incubi]

what size is the compressor, will you be using stock maps with FCD or a remap, standard fueling and injectors? ignition componenst? not as simple as just a bigger blower with additional charge cooling, to make full use of it, you'll want the supporting mod's.

with stock set up, a bigger blower and uprated charge cooling will allow you the same mass air flow as a stock CT26 and ATAIC at 1 bar, but with much less boost on the bigger turbo - thermal efficiency will be a dream - until you turn it up - then it needs supporting.

Grin factor = priceless.

have you got a metal head gasket?

cheers

[LORD_ED]

got an hks fcd not gonna be turning up boost too much on her to start with done that in past and lost engines.

re the metal headgasget its not wort doin that till i blow this one as the head and block both need to be machined down so totally perfect surfaces as the metal headgasget done flex as much as standard

[Cubic Incubi]

I still dont know the compressor size mate : ;)

you have to be careful with the stock head gasket - if it blows it can warp the head and that's not realy an experiment if you get my drift, whereas swapping turbos is. With the MHG the engine wont blow and as long as you arent risking detonation, the engine will be fine and you'll be blowing turbo's instead of engines if you get it wrong and turn up the boost. much less hassle too.

I wouldnt run more than 11psi with a stock gasket on stock ct26 and top mount.

then if you plan uprated then you will aid levels of charge thermal efficiency. volumetric efficiency will be better also and I assume that cylinder temps and head temps will increase, regardless of charge cooling, due to advanced force and performance creating friction heat - so your back to stock temps, all dependant on other mods though such as spent gas route and cold air induction boxes etc which can give massive differences on our turbo cars, as you know mate.

blow paper gasket and ya may warp head as it quickly seriously over heats. can be a matter of a few minutes, just depends on severity, so its worth considering. :(

If I assume bibbs old turbo is uprated to say a CT20 spec (48 ish mm compressor) in which case even without the FMIC it will run more efficient on the air to air intercooler, with less force on the turbo, the thermal efficiency will be great and the tubo will last longer than stock, for the same performance benefits - without the risk.

As an example, lets assume the CT26 is at 45-50% efficiency at 15psi, whereas a stage 3 hybrid ct26 /ct20/garret at around 47-50mm compressor is at 9 psi and is 60-65% thermally efficient because of this the mass air flow will increase by a few lbs per minute but the temps will decrease by up to 15 degrees C. so thats just the turbo with stock top mount intercooler.

If its a stock turbo at 15psi, then adding a ST205 charge cooler or FMIC dependant on size can around 4lbs/min mass air flow at 15psi but will increase thermal efficiency by 25 degrees C. stock turbo longevity is however now compromised severely.

an FMIC or ST205 charge cooler will double the increase in adition to the uprated turbo in mass flow by about 5lbs/min drop inlet emps by about 30 degrees C. longer lasting turbo.

Water injection is another possibility if you keep the top mount.

Another factor is a radiator fan left on constant which will aid air flow past the turbo and prevent heat soak in the town when just pootling.

top mount with uprated turbo should give about a 20% increase in thermal efficiency proportional to the volumetric efficiency increase of say 10%, this should offer 20BHP over whatever 1bar on CT26 is allowing, My JDM if estimated at 270BHP at 1 bar on 101 ron would see 290BHP just with a uprated turbo if that theory is correct - add to that a fmic or chargecooler the 22% increase in mass flow and increase of 40% thermal efficiency, I would expect about 320BHP at about 9 psi on the bigger blower and cooler. I would definatley need uprated stage 3 clutch, replace my rear discs, as fronts are all that has been done and fit a rear strut mount.

thats with probably a £100 ish remap at nobles and my aussie DP and Mongoose, samco and blitz intake. The MHG would take it no bother, but a paper would just pop.

your going to lose your low down torque as it moves slightly up the rev range dependant on how agressive you can get the boost to kick in - gaining more power later in the rev range, extending the power band.

To keep the low down torque and keep all the power usable, look at cams, pistons a lightweight rod & stroke distance, and a flyheel - may aswell do the whole hog. Then your talking 350BHP+ and the stock tranny will be crying unless its fully rebuilt or 205 box swapped. But happy to run 320bhp all day long, overengineered to last. :bookworm:

remember, its torque that moves the car and making lots of power later on in the power band means lot and lots of RPM as the torque drops away, so without uprated internals, if you build for top power, the high cycles of the crank just throw oil off, that is when guys end up worn stock rings which incrase blow by, ruining oil and knacking oil pumps and disintegrated shells perhaps, perhaps even head damage. Of course the biggest worry is detonation if you get the set up wrong.

Concentrate on getting the power down early and gaining maximum torque by the addition of the internals, to make use of the increase in volumetric and thermal efficiency and your now safe to run 350bhp on revision 2 with damn good oil, or for useability, run 320 and have monster torque for those twisties. Maxumum grinning riding the twisties just like it was deigned to do in WRC.

phew.

right, if i'm wrong anywhere please lend a hand because this is my theory for my stage 3 build and I dont want it to go throwing any bearings or eating any exhaust valves.

any other applications then guys and gals? its not all 3SGTE, what about FE 's anybody interested in the 3SFE turbo?

cheers

Karl

[mikeb]

blow paper gasket and ya may warp head as it quickly seriously over heats. can be a matter of a few minutes, just depends on severity, so its worth considering.

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Have you ever seen an OEM headgasket? If not, I can assure you that they are not made of paper.

But yes, the aftermarket performace (i.e. steel) gaskets are able to take higher cylinder pressures, although they can be more difficult to install well.

IMO, the most important parameter when discussing turbocharging is the exhaust housing A/R ratio (assuming appropriately sized wheels), as it determines the tradeoff between spool speed and max boost.