Excessive Oil Use

[storm99]

my 87 celica which has just covered 100,000 miles (gulp) has started to use a litre of oil every thousand miles. Please tell me she's not dying. Still drives really well, puff of white smoke on starting otherwise great...help!

[Cubic Incubi]

puff of white smoke on starting is most probable condensation in the exhaust and inlet manifold and is normal - mixed with a little blow by vapour settle in the PCV outlet pipe which goes back to the inlet manifold.

These are some simple checks,

On the head cover (rocker cover/cam cover) find a outlet pipe (by the distributor) on the right hand side of the cover - a black thick rubber pipe runs from the PCV outlet to the throttle body/inlet manifold.

Take off this pipe and check it is not blocked, also with the pipe still atatched to the cam cover - blow through it by mouth - it should not feel restricted, then connect it to the throttle body/inlet manifold and blow through it that way too - again it should be clear.

It is of the upmost importance that this pipe is able to 'breath' clearly, it is the vent to clear excessive positive crankcase pressure from the engine - this is caused by blow by past the piston rings and is perfectly normal on all engines when the bores expand under the heat of performance.

heres a pic of the engine that i cleaned up in my 87 3sge convertible (before i blew it up with 50 hp of nitrous) I was however not running nitrous when the oil pump seized or the big end bearing went - the internal damage was allready done - most unfortunatley and i was gutted after all the hard work. You can't expect an old girl to be a performance car, so I just went straight to turbo power. She ahs a new engine now

see the 'toyota' writing logo on the cam cover - follow the red line to the right and the little bit sticking out is the PCV outlet.

I was however NOT running nitrous when the oil pump seized or after that was replaced - when the big end bearing went on no'3 - the internal damage was allready done as it was an old car and had sat in a garage half it's life during winters - most unfortunatley and i was gutted after all the hard work. You can't expect an old girl to be a performance car, I just went straight to turbo power and bought a GT4 after the oil pump failed, then after the shells went in september i put her to sleep in the lock uo. She has a new engine now and I need to tweak her and clean her up.

Without a vent it would just blow the seals out.

Also, do you know which grade of oil is being used and the last time it was changed?

Never use 'chemical flushes' aswell.

If you have any questions or further concerns I'm always happy to help a fellow 4th genner.

Oil consumption is a normal factor - a good service and tune up, right oil for your use and engine condition, fuel system cleaner and regular checks are very important on the revision one gen 4 engines (I have assumed it is a 3SGE)

Beware that 'too' much fuel system cleaner may take too much carbon off the valves and ring guides etc and will increase blow by and will accelerate head wear and heat soak.

regards

Karl.

[sotal]

Karl you seem to know a lot about this. My first post on this site was a similar question:

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25738

Theres a 132 posts in there (will make good bedtime reading whilst you are off ;) )

Do you have any suggestions as to what I could try next? My car is still drinking oil although it reduced loads over winter. Saying that I have used nearly 4 gallons topping up the Oil since last July. I have been using cheap tesco 10w 40 but I was going to try 15w 40 for the next lot. I get no smoke, compression is perfect and there is definatley no leaks (got mechanic to check it out for leaks)

Just thought you might have a suggestion to try blowing down a pipe or something!!

[Cubic Incubi]

the first problem is the cheap tescos oil.

i expect its either a cheap mineral or cheap semi synth.

its breaking down, burning up, and venting with the positive pressure out of the pcv outlet. perfectly explainable but not good, not just from an oil economy point of view, but also it will lose its properties, make the oil pump and filter work harder and also wont do a good job - you WILL lose BHP and will be causing wear - it wont blow up tomorow though, but the engine will lose power eventualy nad wont get it back - later in its life it will die prematurely.

as its summer, i suggest you dont go grade 15 as this is too thick for cold starting, the number at the first part of the oil grade denotes its viscosity when cold and the higher the grade the thicker the oil - this means it takes longer to 'flow' to where it needs to be.

whilst the coolant temp gauge may rise - fooling you into thinking its 'ready' to drive normally, it is far from it as the oil hasnt started working properly yet. this will increase wear and friction. Not immediatley though so dont worry, but it may shorten an engines life considerably dependant on the engines charechteristics. also it will hamper power and if you try to push the car, the forces will just make it lose power and advance possible problems - the engine is simply not efficient at this stage.

lets consider you engine, FE is designed for quick throttle response, quick torque and a nice smooth increase in the power band - its a performance economy engine, made to fit into the class without losing its performance edge. It doesnt get to the same high tolerances of performance engines such as the 3sge or 3sgte - but still needs good protection from cold.

The second part of the oil grade describes the viscosity of the oil when hot, and again the higher the grade the thicker the oil, and again the thinner the oil the more flow.

In winter you need thinner when hot as the engine will operate cooler and in the summer you want thicker when hot as the engine temps will be higher - meaning that during all seasons you have optimum oil flow when the engine is at its peak performance operating temperatures.

Most motorists do not even consider this and leave it to service mechanics who - if they are the manufacturers agent will put in what the book says, withhout asking you your style of driving - if they are a local back street independant type place, they will flick through a book provided by their oil supplier and will put in what the book says - again without asking you what your driving styles are.

This is a problem, because really only one person knows how the engine is operated and that is the driver. but you will generally get that season grade - if they work on seasons at that garage - most cars ust get 10-30 thrown in because it is a safe compromise. your driving style tells you how long the oil will 'last' in the sense that it will continue doing its job, inbetween services - there is no such thing as the 3,000 or 6,000 mile service - cars need servicing when your driving style has advanced oil deterioration and this is a subject the mechanic and general motorist hardly ever considers.

Then we need to look at fully synthetics, semi synths and mineral oils to match the right ype of oil for you use and intentional service intervals, as each oil has different properies.

But before I do go into those 'types' of oils - I need to know your driving style - do you 'push' the car - or do you take it easy - town driving or motorways or a combination.

Your driving style is important and pushing a car doesnt harm it, it is designed to be driven - the oil you choose depends wether or not the engine is efficient, wether or not it just all burns away and wether or not it does it's job and actualy protects.

off to bed now mate - will check back tomorow for your reply.

as always, glad to help.

regards

Karl

[martint]

karl, you an engine god! please can you tel me the best oil to use i'm a little heavy on the accerator (kinda from cold!) and its manly motorway and country drive (fast, but always 5mph under the speed limit onest! ) what oil is best, drive a GT on a P plate..... with a blitz replacement filter, not an induction kit.... and if the money gods finally let me a de-cat! p.s. usaually use Castrol magntec, don't know the numbers (and not going out to by car to find out) but know its semi synth

[Cubic Incubi]

I'm back - so much for bed, excuse the personal movements of Carlos - but it's hard to sleep when your ruddy constapated from ruddy pain killers and anti inflammatories.

So I digress

Sotal - I forgot to ask, whats your mileage? do you know what the mileage was at when you acquired the car and are there any clues as to how the previous owner drove the car (age, s*x of person normally gives clues, albeit not proof) also - service history? is it a Mr T history and if not any idea from the invoices which oils have been used (I know, lots to consider ;) ) any induction or exhaust mods?

The more you know about your car the better as it can give an indication (granted again not proof - but it's better than a blank) as to the condition inside the lump.

but if everything is ok and the burning is due to just poor oil - a fully synth 5/30 will be a good all rounder for you in all seasons - unless you have done anything to the power band.

The FE are toyotas most developed twin cam engines, performance and economy, who can ask for more

cheers

........

Martin -

it seems you enjoy a spirited drive and enjoy stretching the car and making use of the 3SGE characteristics of 4500rpm and over for that feeling of 'lift' - as the 3sge is a performance engine and does not have the same nice smooth progressive power band as the sotals FE, your engine is more aggressive due to the higher cam profiles, but you sacrifice low down torque and responce even with the blitz - you need protection to cope with the car as it soars in the rev range, you obviously use the gears also, you need maximum protection that a good fully synth can offer. De cat will make it much better at breathing, no more than 2.75" though and no more than 2.5" exhaust bore unless you plan a shot of the laughing gas (which the engine will take if its in good nick, much stonger than my poor old revision 1 series 3sge - god bless heri)

I would reccomend a 5/30 fully synth. 5 for excellent cold protection and 30 to cope with the performance increases.

Fully synths last longer - they are more expensive but you have to consider the added protection of the oil and its longevity - it will last twice as long during services - you can extend service intervals, it will not need topping up as often, it has excellent from cold properties and a 30 grade is all season for the 3SGE.

If you were very concerned during the peak of summer, you could run a 5/40 say from mid May to mid September for extra protection and use the 5/30 at all other times. Only you can decide that by considering your driving style, give it beans - give it 40 - but this may be too thick for normal driving when the car isnt at peak performance temps, so think about it.

When choosing a fully synth you want an oil high in esters, esters stick better to components adding the extra protection.

When you carry out each oil change, you need to add fresh oil (the same as the oil as you will be putting in)- about 60% of the full capacity (or towards the bottom of the dip stick but not quite at the bottom) - and slowly (do not rev the engine) let it come back to operatings temps, this ensures a good clean through of all channels and journals and clears the way for the good fresh oil. Then it needs drained out and disposed of correctly. The extra cost for the flush oil is far outweighed by the positive effects of cleaning it through and will make the new oil last much longer.

When draining the first lot of existing dirty oil, check the bottom of the drain bucket after it is emoty for contaminants - ALWAYS - tell tale signs of metallised particles can save ££££'s if the problem is diagnosed before it advances to critical stages. the collour of the particles is also important - remomber the engine has lots of different metals working together and against each other such as big end bearings and the crankshaft.

Again, cost of oil isnt really a factor because the oil will last much longer - give more protection, aid performance and do what an oil should do.

magnatec is a good oil for those who want to buy a big well know brand and want to feel safe beacause its 'comfortable' - some (i'm not of course implying magnatec as I dont want liability since they are a huge corporation ) big name semi synths are a mix of questionable synthetic oils, minerals and hydrocracked minerals with added chemical factors which in simple terms, make it a good cheap oil made from stuff that would otherwise be worthless without the clever chemist and marketing - in a nice 'looking' bottle, with a 'cool' pouring flip lid with a big brand to make you feel safe. Its not the best by far. One phrase springs to mind - 'Corporate marketing, packaging and bulk buying power of materials which are mass produced' this means that they are not specific - they are general oils for general cars which are driven generaly - see the problem yet?

Lesser known brands and even supermarket brands have been proven better during tests - the best way to choose your oil? look at what those who run at motorsport level and see waht they use for maximum longevity and performance of engines, then think about it.

the most expensive processes in making oil are the processes used to make proper high ester fully synths - again though, some fully synths are actually hydrocracked minerals which have the right legally to be called fully synths when they are in fact 'manipulared minerals' and they will break sooner than a 'real' fully synth.

Rather than ask which oil i use for general motoring in my 185 GT4 (which currently is Chevron fully synth for performance engines, less than £20 for 5 litres) or which oil i may be using for my GT4 in purely motorsport application (Silkolene Pro S 5/40 fully synth, £30 ish 5 ltrs high in esters and as reccomended by oilman of Opie Oils - i agree with him but will further look into it - Motul is also good) have a look what is out there in the market place. an extra £10 for a oil used in motorsport isnt going to break the bank.

Another very very important factor is 'proper' service materials such as Mr T oil filters and coolant - accept no compromise in my opinion - I also run stock ignition components. The only thing you should change yourself imho - unless you are going for monster performance and will be upgrading the ignition and fueling etc - is spark plugs, oil and the filter - and these are due lots and lots of consideration for optimum efficiency.

hope that helps

regards

Karl

[Cubic Incubi]

I've got nowt better to do, so I may as well continue - but I thought a new post would be better than extending the previous.

lets answer some questions before they are asked, because your bound to be thinking the following;

1. Mixing oil grades and brands

2. Chemical oil flushes

3. Changing grades

4. Under or over level

5. Blow by

1. Anyone who tops up there oil with the odd half full bottle in the garage with a different grade or brand wants to seriously consider what they are doing, as this 'may' advance oil deterioration. So can mixing brands. Its not proven and there is no difinative list of what not to mix or what can be mixed although som manufacturers have published claims relating to there own products. But the mere fact that it can be rather 'dodgy' is enough to consider. Obviously if you are caught on the motorway and need to whack in a couple of litres, buy the service station own brand of 10/30, just enough to get you home, then change the oil ASAP. imho.

2. Some component areas of the engine will have stodgy oil hanging on with dear life even after the second oil flush as described in the post above, in addition you will have carbonised deposits. Add a chemical oil flush and you are asking for all this cack to block up the journals and channels, pick up pipes etc. This is my opinion and experience - dont use it, all good oils have stuff in them allready and carbonising to internals is inevitable.

If you want a spotless engine, by a brand spanking new one or take it to pieces and clean it, each part by hand. In my opinion and experience chemical flushes are stupid and a waste of time and BIG money when the engine fails.

3. Changing grades does nothing which can damage an engine and is a myth. it is just oil, just like the last oil, except has different propeties for composition longevity and flow at certain temperatures, it will not use little hammers and chisels to tap away inside the engine and break things. They dont add any super duper cleaning properties, unlike chemical flushes which kill engines.

4. Too little oil realy needs no explanation, it kills engines. But how? too little protection, too much heat, too much expansion, too much friction - goodbye engine, so check your dipstick, never rely on a level gauge in the cockpit - always double check.

So you put too much oil in, will it be ok? NO - drain some out, immediatley and do not over fill - ever. Why? crank picks up and throws oil up into cylinders and pumps oil past piston rings, carbonising and gumming up head - poor performance, advances piston ring wear etc etc etc - goodbye engine.

So how much oil is sufficient? well anywhere in between the manufacturers mark on the dip stick - but from a peformance point of view? For now just top it up as normal.

I'm embarking on an experiment to find out how different levels of fresh oil during the change affect the deterioration and the burning of oil - I want to see what happens if I fill up to full level or if I its 'just' below the full level (such as if you where to grade the 'normal' safe area into 5 spaces, i'll fill it to 3.5, 5 being high/full.) I'm doing this purely from a motorsport point of view and will have during next year, yes it'll take that long to work this out but if it saves me an extra 10 laps then it's worth it - i'll share the results for anyone interested.

any body want to add what they believe the results may show?

5. As mentioned, as the bores expand under the heat of performance/high load driving, combustion gases and emmisions gases creep past the rings - totally normal. In a hot engine, your oil is nothing like the oil in that oil advert from a few years ago, with little red and green balls doing magic. Your crankcase has lots of oil 'vapour' floating around and coating everything. Blow by gases mix with these vapours and contaminate the oil - hence old oil is black and smells of emmissions. Certain properties will rise to the top of the engine and will vent out of the PCV and is returned to be burned by being redirected to throttle body or inlet manifold. ~this stuff is pure crud, highly toxic and stinks - heres a pic of what it looks like, this is my catch can from my ST185 from February June. I vented to atmosphere via a pipe positioned towards the bottom of the engine.

Ive tried a breather filter and re-routing to inlet manifold, but find the extended pipe the best - you may have different findings, it depends where the catch can is mounted - remeber my owning the ST185 has been a pure experiment before embarking on building a GT4 track and point to pint car.

this crud will burn and block the injectors, carbonise and sticky things up like throttle plates, valves etc etc. Do you want it to continue? if not fit a catch can especialy if you have a turbo/intercooler application as the crud carbinses on the compressor turbine, hosing and internal intercooler surfaces. But still important on N/A The catch can collects condensed moisture also and this helps to seperate the oil in the catch can so it cant carbonise in the can itself.

By law the mod must be pcv outlet to catch can back to the inlet manifold/throttle body to be burned to burn off any vapours that do not condense, so fit it in the airtream so it gets cold, behind the bumper is good, an alloy catch can is better as it condenses better and is more resistant to heat.

Any body you see with a breather filter on the pcv outlet or on a fitted catch can is breaking the emmisions laws - but this is not applicable for some motorsport applications. empty the catch can when necessary and check it often - if you dont the inlet under vacuum will begin to 'suck' the crud through and in high volume will burn it off and you will cak yer pants as loads of white/browney smoke pours out of the exhaust, dependant on crud and water content. I chose a pretty can and located it in the wrong place becuase it wasnt cool enough to condense whilst being re-routed and the vapours still ended up being sucked through to the air inlet and were burned - so ivented to atmos to finish the experiment - it doesnt need to look good and should idealy be behind the grille in the bumper for efficiency - make sure any hosing is thick rubber and wont be 'crushed' out of shape, like a garden hose will for example, and make sure it is not next to heat sources.

heres a pic

Ecessive blow by obvioulsy causes advanced deterioration of the oil and this is the easiest way to check it as you can monitor levels of caught oil - it will be more in the summer and less in the winter but should have a higher water content in colder temps.

....

The rule for oil - Do not take it for granted, check you oil often, analyse your oil at changes - it is never a good idea to guess or leave it up to somebody else to be 'generaly might be ok' when protecting your engine and possibly robbing you of performance.

phew.

Remember, these are my opinions from experience and is in no way a guarantee, and nor is my building a project entirely for motorsport application. I dont know your engines, so choosing and assesing is left up to you - I just offer advice from my own camp.

Cheers

:D

[daktari]

Apart from, and not wishing to detract from Karls excellent mechanical knowledge and going back to the original question from storm. 100K is not a huge amount of miles for the 3S-GE provided it`s had regular servicing and care. A litre per 1000 miles is generally regarded to be acceptable. Although i`d be worried myself.

That said, Karls descriptions, hypothesis and detailed explanations are spot on.

[Cubic Incubi]

Thank you Martin,

I very much feel as if i'm going to settle well into the TOC camp and hope I'm welcome with my long way around stuff expalaining the rear end of of a gnat. I've just found nothing has a simple answer.

Yes I went on a bit didnt I but I hope I offered some info that others will find interesting. Sharing my experience is better than sitting around twiddling my thumbs whilst I'm recovering, or up late unable to sleep.

I'm not trying to convert 'everyone' to fully synth's or the 5 cold grade, just take what i've added and use you own judgement.

I agree that a decently serviced and maintained revision 1 3SGE will last for a long long time if it is in good nick and has been cared for.

If it has any internal wear, hten driving it hard will accelerate that wear in old old age, so realy it's something to consider when driving it whilst the condition is unknown, checking the oil for contaminants can give viatl signs, and if needed just treat her carefully for longevity.

I fely a bit silly when I took my old engine and just applied the throttle in a bid to orbit space with the acceleration and the older revision 1 is just as strong as a revision 3 in terms of pulling power imho.

And using lots of oil is totally normal on an older engine which will be worn regardless, to varying degrees.

Oil choice is always critical.

I bet some owners never thought oil could be so important. I certainly used to just buy a well know brand and shove it in without thinking of the consequences.

As a airframes techie in the forces, the closest thing I was trained on, to an engine, was a transmission for giving power to turn the helicopter rotors and even then my experience on transmissions was limited due to it needing further training to work in the overhaul bays. Engines are different in terms of tolerenaces, mineral oils are good for hydraulics and easy life gearboxes but engines are a different matter. Old engines back in the day didnt last half as long until the advances of oil.

So you can imagine I've enjoyed learning what I have of late to pick up the tools all these years later and apply them to different principals.

It's all good.

:D

[sotal]

Carlos - My head hurts after reading and trying to take all that in!

It's a 7AFE completley unmodified engine (clean filter though!)

The car now has 111,000 miles on the clock, and I do approximatley 10 miles a day, 5 days a week (5 miles to work - then 5 miles back) the route I take is now a circular route which stops me having to stop start all the time. My whole journey to work never exeeds 40mph (loads of gatsos!) and the engine nevers gets revved high. On the way back from work, I drive about 1 mile slowly, until I get to the dual carriage way, then I have to go faster to get onto the dual carriage way - normally straight up to 70mph, I then go along the dual carriage way until the next exit (half a mile or so) then exit and drive the rest of the way home at around 35mph.

When I get the chance I like to drive a little faster, but the car is rarely thrashed (I hit the rev limiter for the first time in ownership the other week!)

The car had full service history - 75% Toyota and the last part a local garage. The car had one former owner and all MOT's

I originally started with expensive brand name oils but it got too expensive to lose 1 litre every thousand miles. The cheap tesco stuff has lasted the longest out of all oils i have tried.

I asked at Toyota and they told me 1 litre every thousand miles is well within operating specifications and just to make sure it is kept topped up.

The car performs beautifully and I have no other problems. I want to do a full oil change and filter change over the next couple of weeks. I've got a genuine filter from Toyota but I wasn't sure what oil to use, I thought 15w 40 would be better for Summer, and then go back to 10w 40 for winter.

Any tips on pipes to check or anything else would be appreciated

[Cubic Incubi]

Sorry Sotal, I always try to give the full picture - nothing is simple in my experience.

When taking the oil you use into your own hands, you need to understand your engines characteristics and how oil 'works' in the engine. Its just like employing someone to work on the car, can you trust them or the oil and just think all will be ok?

The car is seeing little use daily and thats not a problem with the right oil. cars are built to be driven in any circumstance, warm her up properly and use a good oil and she'll love you for it.

Its not just consumption and the financial aspect of oils wasted or expense of quality - not all big brands are quality oils and more often, their range of fully synths are very expensive and theres a reason.

I literally halved consumption when I swithced from Castrol 10/30 semi synth after the first 2 months of owner ship, in winter, to a 5/30 fully synth.

adding the catch can to the set up sorted the rest.

It's not cool or hype - just good consideration after purposefully experimenting.

I drive my ST185 about 3 days a week if that and when doing so Its for at least a 30-40mile drive, some days I just shoot up to the northumbrian borders just for the thrill of the twisties.

Some weeks its not driven. Its never used for short journey's. I use it purely from a 'getting out there for a drive' angle. Its purely for pleasure, but the throttle gets hammered home so the oil isnt exactly being wrapped in cotton wool.

I fear that the 15 grade in a 7afe is way too thick for summer as it wont get working soon enough to allow the engine the protection it needs. Not just low mileage daily drives but any car.

The principal in my opinion, is absolute - thin when cold has good flow prior to heat expansion, so it gets to where it needs to be and doesnt get hammered trying to squeeze into the small orifices and journals, by putting the oil under force like that - will deteriorate the oil in a cold engine, put negating pressure on the engine and 'could' cause excessive blow if too much resistance is apparent from a cold engine which hasnt expanded where necessary, the chamber/piston/cylinders and rings are the first to get hot - it works sluggishly when cold until the oil does its job - 15 grade will take 3 times as long as 5 grade as it is 3 times as thick when cold and if it takes too long for the oil to get there its not good for oil but more importantly engine. Heat is caused by the combustion, which transfers heat to the oil and coolant, if the oil is too thick when cold, it takes longer to get to its 'peak temp viscosity.

I believe a thinner when cold will lubricate better, put less stress on the engine - this is what is meant when people say do not drive the car until it is warmed, how long this takes can depend on the oil your using or at least the level of protection when cold. Time is not a factor, factors are force applied, force resisted and oil shearing, ambient temps and air pressure, your right foot and choice of grade and quality of oil.

Now, your engine isnt built for high power output, its designed for a quick response and torque nice and early, its a torque engine, not a power engine, you have sacrificed high power in the rev range for low down torque and fuel economy. I want lots of low down torque, and I would have a 3SFE over the 3SGE anyday and supercharge it too for those reasons. I like a car to pull from the word go. Top end power has become far less important to me during my experience with celicas. When building the 3SGTE i've got torque in mind and will allow a sacrifice of a higher power band in the rev range for hill climbs and point to point, when the weight of the car needs to be dragged rather than pushed along.

On all our engines, this means high forces will be present when lower in the rev range, doing the work, pushing down those 7afe light weight rods and turning that crank, so you get your 'energy' in early, therefore you need oil to do its job early and not be too late to act.

Once it gets up to temperature the 5 viscosity rating means nothing and the 30 takes over to protect when hot, oil viscosity changes and has a maximum thickness, all 40 grade oils are the same thickness when at 100 degrees, it represent 14 centistokes when at 100oC . It provides a insight of how the oil will flow under pressure through a confined space.

Then at high temps once the engine is warmer, we have summer temps to consider, which means hotter running than real hot - if you arent giving the engine a chance to get warmed up safely and are running oil too thick or thin at summer temps then that wont do it any good either.

You can go for the added protection of the 40 grade but I suspect your short journeys and varying speeds need a 30 grade. If you intend to give her a good sample of beans and a trip down the continent then I would say 40 or even 50 dependant how far south you go.

Its always best to just treat them gently in the summer and if you have doubts, dont thrash her about as she wont like you for it.

I reckon the oil is just breaking down quickly - fitting an oil catch can will allow you to monitor the amount and condition of blow by in a good condensor and oil seperator (oil catch can) also will take harnful crud away from the throttle body/inlet manifols which means higher ignition performance.

A fully synth will last longer between changes, when the oil is lubriatic bearings, the force applid on the oil is called shearing, poor quakity oils will deteriorate sooner and the viscosity protection form cold to hot changes, the oil gets literaly cracked apart and its chemical structure changes, high in esters oil protects better as it literally clings to surfaces.

I personaly would only use a fully synth 5/30 in your engine. I suspect you will notice a increae in performance allowing you light weight rods and torquey head to do its job :thumbs:

is that a little clearer :DSorry Saotal, I always try to give the full picture - nothing is simple in my experience.

I'm always willing of course to listen to another theory, I'm not, as I've metioned, the only celica resource ;)

Getting your oil tested will tell you how quickly it is breaking down, and it seems to me your oil has been breaking down to soon, is burning up and is generaly not doing its job. luckily as we are only just approaching the hotter months, you have time to remedy before it causes damage.

I believe the car is your pride and joy , taking time to think about the oil is worth the extra £10 and time researching.

cheers

[sotal]

Carlos - Thanks for the advice,

I'm a little reluctant to go down the route of thinner oils as that is where I started. When I picked the car up I dropped the oil out next day and replaced it with 5w40 Fully Synthetic, can't remember which make but it was in a silver can and was £35.99 - Supposedly the best stuff they had. I then drove to scotland up the M6 to Loch Lomond and checked the oil when I got there to find it was very low. So I managed to get some of the same and topped it up to the top. Drove home carefully the next week - stopped off at about 3 service stations to check the oil (this wa sin the middle of the night as well!!) By the time I got home it was getting low but not excessively. I then Got 10w 40 which I added to the oil that was left as the 5w 40 was now getting expensive, since then I went through quite a lot from around aug to Oct adding 10w 40 every time I filled the car with petrol. Then from Oct onwards I haven't added much at all really. I'm not sure if that was the cooler weather, the fact that I'm probably doing less weekend trips now or the fact that at that time I switched to the cheapest oil I could find which was the Tesco Oil. The oil is still relativley clean due to the fact that it keeps disappearing. I want to do a full oil change anyway though because I am guessing the cruddy bits of oil will remain??

You talk about an oil catch can - I'm feeling a bit dumb right now and don't really know what an oil catch can is! Where does it go, how much do they cost? What does it do (now that felt like a daft question - I guess it catches oil!! - but why?)

Thanks again for any advice

And sorry to Storm99 for hijacking your post hopefully there may be some info from my problem which will help you ;)

[mikeb]

My car is still drinking oil although it reduced loads over winter. Saying that I have used nearly 4 gallons topping up the Oil since last July. I have been using cheap tesco 10w 40 but I was going to try 15w 40 for the next lot. I get no smoke, compression is perfect and there is definatley no leaks (got mechanic to check it out for leaks)

←

For me, this is one of the most useful symptoms of your particular problem. It may be that, if you are doing short journeys, the oil never gets up to temperature in winter. There are 2 (maybe more) possible reasons for higher consumption:

1) The oil is viscosity is not getting low enough for consumption to be a problem during winter.

2). The oil has soaked up moisture from the atmosphere, it never gets boiled off on a short run, and your oil level stays high because of the added moisture.

Yes, I would run a 15-40 oil during the summer (and it will probably be OK for winter too). What is the official recommended grade of oil for the 7a-fe? I wouldn't run down to 30 if 40 is Toyota's recommendation, especially with your oil consumption problem.

You probably don't see any smoke as the cat burns off the oil.

An oil catch can is installed on the breather pipe, between the engine and the inlet manifold. The PCV sucks up vapourised oil as it is drawing air from inside the crankcase. Usually, this ends up going into the engine with the intake air and is burnt in the cylinders. A catch can collects this oil. If you have a problem with the PCV it is possible that more than normal quantities of oil will end up being sucked up. This would probably be worse when using thinner oil. However, a more likely problem with the PCV is a sludged breather causing the crankcase to become pressurised, forcing oil past the rings into the cylinders.

[sotal]

Cheers Mike,

One quick question - What is a PCV?

I think in my original post Marc (GT4 Booster) got me to check out that breather pipe, it was clean.

If the Catch can does what I think it does, would it catch all oil that otherwise would have gone back to the engine to be burnt? If so this should be an excellent idea as if the amount in the ctach can is equal to the amount lost - then I know where it is going?? - Or have I misunderstood

[mikeb]

Cheers Mike,

One quick question - What is a PCV?

I think in my original post Marc (GT4 Booster) got me to check out that breather pipe, it was clean.

If the Catch can does what I think it does, would it catch all oil that  otherwise would have gone back to the engine to be burnt? If so this should be an excellent idea as if the amount in the ctach can is equal to the amount lost - then I know where it is going?? - Or have I misunderstood

←

PCV = positive crankcase ventilation. See here for explanation:

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

The catch can will only catch oil that is 'coughed up' by the PCV system. IF this is where your oil is going, it will show it up very quickly. But I suspect you engine is losing it's oil some other way, so the catch can won't help in that scenario.

The other places the oil can go are past the valve stem seals (which doesn't usually cause high consumption, just puffs of blue smoke), or past the rings in the cylinder bores. IMO the oil rings are the most likely culprit, but there really is no way to test them and confirm it. The only workaround is to use the thickest suitable oil.

[sotal]

Yes the rings ended up being the most likely culprit last time I had this conversation!

I tested the compression and everything was perfect, I also did various tests which would kick out the maximum smoke and never got any (some people did say that the Cat would get all smoke)

The Spark Plugs are not oily so It's not showing as burning oil. I'm just willing to try anything to try and work out what is casuing it. To be totally honest I'm not too bothered at the moment due to the fact that it's not much effort to top it up once a month when I put fuel in, but i don't want to be doing any damage by using cheap oil.

I'm going to do a full oil change hopefully this weekend. I'm now stuck between whether to use:

1) cheap Tesco £5/gallon 10w40

2) Halfords own 15w40

3) A Decent 10w40

4) A Decent 15w40

5) Something else

6) should I use an engine flush first?

Also is it worth trying one of these oils designed for high mileage cars? Or an additive with the oil?

Many thanks

[mikeb]

Yes the rings ended up being the most likely culprit last time I had this conversation!

I tested the compression and everything was perfect, I also did various tests which would kick out the maximum smoke and never got any (some people did say that the Cat would get all smoke)

The Spark Plugs are not oily so It's not showing as burning oil. I'm just willing to try anything to try and work out what is casuing it. To be totally honest I'm not too bothered at the moment due to the fact that it's not much effort to top it up once a month when I put fuel in, but i don't want to be doing any damage by using cheap oil.

I'm going to do a full oil change hopefully this weekend. I'm now stuck between whether to use:

1) cheap Tesco £5/gallon 10w40

2) Halfords own 15w40

3) A Decent 10w40

4) A Decent 15w40

5) Something else

6) should I use an engine flush first?

Also is it worth trying one of these oils designed for high mileage cars? Or an additive with the oil?

Many thanks

←

A compression test only really gives any indication about the compression rings, the oil control rings have next to no bearing on cylinder compression.

In your case, I would be inclined to try a cheapish to medium price 15w-40 oil, and see if it burns any less. If it does improve it, try a more expsensive 15w-40 grade at the next change. There's little point using expensive oil when it's burning it off at the rate yours is. High 'mileage oil' is supposedly engineering to last longer between oil changes, it won't affect how much oil your engine loses, so it's not worth the expense for your car.

Remember to change your filter every 6000 miles regardless.

[sotal]

Unless Carlos jumps in with any suggestions I think I will try that.

Just out of interest how much does anyone else pay for their genuine oil filters?? I've got one which I've had a while but I remember thinking it was expensive compared to normal filters.

Just wondering to make sure my local Toyota Garage isn't ripping me off!

[mikeb]

£7ish + vat was what I paid for a filter last week (for a 3s-ge engine).

[Cubic Incubi]

sorry, i stopped reading after I read 'too thin a oil etc' about 6 or 7 posts back etc. <_<

i've explained to great length already and dont realy want to repeat stuff again and again - I offer advice in such a concise manner so I dont have to add little bits at a time to then get another question, I reckon i've offered all the answers to your questions allready - at least from my experience,

ive discussed shearing, flow, viscosity, centistoke grade when cold and hot, esters, service reccomendations, blow by, positive crankcase ventalation, burning crud, oil catch cans (oil seperators and condensors) etc etc.

all i want to point out is that at 100 degrees celcius, ALL 40 grades are 14 centistokes this is a measurement of the oils viscosity and effects flow.

Tell me the peak engine oil temps, oil temps in town driving, oil temps on motorways etc as this will give me a far better understanding of the temperatures at which the oil will perform, I can then consider seasonal changes in temperatures..

The thickness of the oil when cold should not be confused with the eventual thickness when warm and this 'worry' about the oil being thin is yet to be argued properly - but again, once the engine begins to warm up its eventual viscosity will be the same at 100degrees C, when heated the oil 'properties' change.

Again, the 5 refers to flow only when cold and the oil gets to where it needs to be sooner.

Read through what I have written as its fully explained, and just decide for yourself, as written above, i'm not the authority, I just present the facts and then give a resolution. :)

Ive read tonnes of info on oil and have thought about it for a very long time, have discussed it with other cars designed for serious motorsport and have concluded, as above. :bookworm:

Using a 15 in the winter is just asking for trouble.

Poor oil awareness is the main cause of engine failure next to inadequate thermal efficiency.

Not realy much more to say, ive covered everything within my experience and have eliminated everything else

7AFE has early torque, you need high flow when cold to stop oil shearing. In essence the engine is akin to a diesel block, I advise from an angle of maximum engine performance and protection under the highest forces, as it is under these conditions that poor oil kills engines - so it is safe to say that 5/30 fully synth is over engineering for maximum protection. Its not gospel and depends on use.

Sotal, What concerns me - you seem to have tried various oils, havent been able to make up your mind so you have setteld with a cheap oil that burns away in a jiffy - in about 6 weeks time at peak summer temps, this 'burning' will quite literally be in a jiffy. Low oil will quickly deteriorate and kill an engine.

Just take care mate and I hope to see you at JAE so we can have a chat :D I want to spend some time looking at the various FE engines as I'm very interested in them.

this is the link to yahoo uk search for 7afe recommended engine oil - http://tinyurl.com/d423u as you will see info is very very scarce on the net - so I aint been copy'n and paste'n mate - this is all experience.If your uncertain just stick with semi synth 10-30

cheers

[Cubic Incubi]

this is the link to yahoo uk search for 7afe recommended engine oil - http://tinyurl.com/d423u as you will see info is very very scarce on the net - so I aint been copy'n and paste'n mate - this is all experience.If your uncertain just stick with semi synth 10-30

cheers

←

In addition to finding 'nothing' on the internet for 7afe oil reccomendation, I have just tried a worldwide Google search for 7AFE fully synth, and straight away I found this other thread on TOC, try this link mate then read what other TOC owners have to say on the matter and look at their diversity of applications ;) http://tinyurl.com/7to3l

and a recent one at Celica Club UK with an oil industry experts advice http://tinyurl.com/7mw8f

cheers

[sotal]

Many thanks for another very informed post Carlos. I have read through the CelicaClub Link (the TOC one doesn't work!)

I know exactly where you are coming from but you mention that 15w 40 should never be used in winter - I was suggesting only using it through summer then reverting to 10w40 for winter. As the usage was reduced in Winter.

You also say I have tried various oils and settled for a cheap one which burns quickly. That is not quite true. I have settled for the one which lasts the longest - and then gone for the cheapest variety of that one.

I also understand that you are trying to make sure I don't end up with future damage due to using the wrong oil now, but I need to balance using the best oil with "wasting" lots of money by losing expensive oil quickly

One of the suggestions on the previous post suggested that when running the car would "use" little oil, but when I stop the thin oil would seep past the rings, wheras thick oil wouldn't seep past as easily

Again I want to say thanks for you spending your time to offer very concise advice. As I don't know enough about this - it would be interesting to see some of the other experts argue with Carlos's points on this!

[oilman]

I think that the oil quality is your problem. OK a cheap oil will save money in the short term but cost you in the long term.

I would look at a decent semi-synthetic 10w-40 or preferably a fully synthetic 5w-40.

The reasons why a 5w-40 is the same as a 10w-40 or 15w-40 at 100degC are explained here and in plain english so I hope this helps.

0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 and 15w-40 are all the same thickness (14cst) at 100degC.

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

So, all oils that end in 40 (sae 40) are around 14cst thickness at 100degC.

This applies to all oils that end in the same number, all oils that end in 50 (sae 50) are around 18.5cst at 100degC and all oils that end in 60 (sae 60) are around 24cst at 100degC.

With me so far?

Great!

Now, ALL oils are thicker when cold. Confused? It's true and here is a table to illustrate this.

SAE 40 (straight 40)

Temp degC.........................Viscosity (thickness)

0..........................................2579cst

20..........................................473cst

40..........................................135cst

60..........................................52.2cs t

100........................................ 14cst

120.........................................8.8cst

As you will see, there is penty of viscosity at 0degC, in fact many times more than at 100degC and this is the problem especially in cold weather, can the oil flow quick enough to protect vital engine parts at start up. Not really!

So, given that an sae 40 is 14cst at 100degC which is adequate viscosity to protect the engine, and much thicker when cold, how can a 0w oil be too thin?

Well, it can't is the truth.

The clever part (thanks to synthetics) is that thin base oils can be used so that start up viscosity (on say a 5w-40 at 0degC) is reduced to around 800cst and this obviously gives much better flow than a monograde sae 40 (2579cst as quoted above).

So, how does this happen, well as explained at the beginning, it's all about temperature, yes a thin base oil is still thicker when cold than at 100degC but the clever stuff (due to synthetics again) is that the chemists are able to build these oils out of molecules that do not thin to less than 14cst at 100degC!

What are the parameters for our recommendations?

Well, we always talk about good cold start protection, by this we mean flow so a 5w will flow better than a 10w and so on. This is why we recommend 5w or 10w as the thickest you want to use except in exceptional circumstances. Flow is critical to protect the engine from wear!

We also talk about oil temps, mods and what the car is used for. This is related to the second number xw-(XX) as there may be issues with oil temperatures causing the oil to be too thin and therefore the possibility of metal to metal contact.

This is difficult to explain but, if for example your oil temp does not exceed 120degC at any time then a good "shear stable" sae 40 is perfectly capable of giving protection.

"Shear stability" is important here because if the oil shears it thins and that's not good!

However, if you are seeing temperatures in excess of 120degC due to mods and track use etc then there is a strong argument to using an sae 50 as it will have more viscosity at these excessive temperatures.

There are trade offs here. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so it's always best to use the thinnest oil (i.e. second number) that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure.

We do a lot of work with the GT4 OC and we tend to find that 5w-40 is fine for all cars except the more extremely modded ones that are seeing oil temps on track above 120degC. In these cases we tend to recommend the use of a 10w-50.

Cheers

Simon

[sotal]

Thanks for that oilman, I did read that though on the website that Carlos Linked me too :D

Can you explain though why 5w40 dissapears quicker than 10w40?

The only explanation I have had is that it may seep past the rings quicker when the engine is cold. I think I'm right that when cold the 5w40 will be thinner? And when the engine is warm the rings will expand so the thickness when warm won't matter.

The above is only a theory but shows why I am reluctant to use a thinner oil from my past experience. I understand that for normal engines you are both perfectly correct. But my engine is "special" I also understand that long term damage could be occuring by using oil which is too thick.

I have looked into the price of having my rings done and the cheapest quote I got was around £500, Toyota said around £800+vat. This amount is unacceptable espicially when nowhere I have been can gaurantee if that is where the oil is going.

At the end of the day it will be as cheap to replace the engine in a few years (if I still have the car) - So long term damage isn't my greatest worry.

My greatest worry at the moment is ensuring that whilst doing a long trip (don't happen often) I don't run out of oil and do some immediate damage! So if 15w40 is going to stay in longer and protect the engine so it lasts another 50,000 miles then I would be happy. Where as 5w40 may be able to protect the engine better and make it last 100,000 miles but may cause premature engine failure through running out whilst doinga motorway trip.

Do you see where I'm coming from??

[Cubic Incubi]

sotal, sorry - this is the TOC link i mentioned http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5591

I hope oilman has presented the facts a bit clearer than me - as you know i'm on a lot of pain killers and if my posts have been a bit lengthy and jumbled, i apologise.

it's great in any event to be discussing the likes of this as its gave me something to think about and has stopped me just sitting worrying about being ruddy ill.

My main theme though hasnt been 'telling' people which oil to use, i've just presented my findings is all, we've both shared info and i've also considered your findings too - I havent dismissed them, and I'm still thunking about your experience as you have been through the mill of finding what best suits the car, and your the one who drives it - so i'm not forcing my view and hope it didnt come across that way.

off topic, can you send me a pm and tell me about your motor bike :D looks the danglies mate.

cheers