Buying My First Toyota, Looking For Some Advice...

[sotal]

Excellent find on the power curve. However I am a bit suspicous of the power and torque figures for the 3s-ge engine. Firstly I would like to point out the there is a significant difference between the rev 2 (gen 5) and rev 3 (gen 6) 3s-ge. AFAIK it is mainly down to the gen 6 having more racey cam profiles (and possibly slightly revised combustion chambers?). This gives it more power (173hp vs 158hp) but slightly higher in the rev range (7k rpm v 6.6k rpm). The tradeoff is that the gen 6 has slightly worse low down performance, and the gen 5 engine is somewhere inbetween the 7a-fe and the rev 3 3s-ge in terms of power/torque curve. As an example, mine pulls quite well from 30 mph in 5th gear.

From what I was aware I was comparing UK gen 6 GT vs UK gen 6 ST, which as far as I knew the UK 2.0GT gives out around 130bhp rather than 173 or am I getting confused here?? Also I presume the figures for the 3S-GE were probably a little over what they should be because from the type of site it was I'm guessing they had a decat??

Anyhow those figures for the 3s-ge don't paint the full picture. They show the 3s-ge right in it's weak spot - the ACIS changeover point. What about below 3000 rpm, this is where the main low down useful torque is obtained. I don't know about your driving style, but for me, I usually change up around 2.5k to 3k rpm.

I believe the lower point you are talking about would be the 7A-FE's stronger area - I was actually thinking it was advantageous for the 3s-ge to not show that part!!

@mikeb - I haven't commeneted on your graphs etc as I thought I'd wait and see what the actual figutes are for the uk 2.0 GT (I might be getting confused between the 3s-fe and the 3s-ge) I had a quick search and found a recent quote from Spotipus saying he was very pleased when he had his checked to find out it was over stock at 140bhp, after a decat and air filter. I thought it was only the JAP GT which had 170ish bhp??? Please clarify this bit

I'll get a vid done for sotal this eve (I think I've worked out how to mount the camera) then perhaps he can judge it better. Its by no means gives an accurate picture, like mikeb says, you need some proper figures and graphs, but at least its somthing.

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It may be useful to see the vid! ;) Can you shout out the speed and revs as you go (if we can't see them?) So we know what sort of speed you are doing. How are you going to mount the camera??? I'll try and give it a go but I can't see where to mount my camera! My speedo is also calibrated so it's less than 1mph out all the way through the range - some are up to 5mph out, have you had your speedo calibrated??

I'm quite enjoying this topic - I know I'm fighting a losing battle as at the end of the day the famous saying so it all:

"There's no replacement for displacement"

[sotal]

Also don't foget the fact that the 1.8 weighs less than the GT, so at any point where they are giving off the same power and torque, the ST would actually be going faster :D

Reminds me to take a dump before going out in the 1.8!

[MIP]

Link

There you go. 3S-FE = 138bhp.

[sotal]

yeah - ok it's the jap ss1 I'm getting confused with :D - Ok can someone find a power chart for the 170ish bhp

damn I can see this slipping away

[mikeb]

Excellent find on the power curve. However I am a bit suspicous of the power and torque figures for the 3s-ge engine. Firstly I would like to point out the there is a significant difference between the rev 2 (gen 5) and rev 3 (gen 6) 3s-ge. AFAIK it is mainly down to the gen 6 having more racey cam profiles (and possibly slightly revised combustion chambers?). This gives it more power (173hp vs 158hp) but slightly higher in the rev range (7k rpm v 6.6k rpm). The tradeoff is that the gen 6 has slightly worse low down performance, and the gen 5 engine is somewhere inbetween the 7a-fe and the rev 3 3s-ge in terms of power/torque curve. As an example, mine pulls quite well from 30 mph in 5th gear.

From what I was aware I was comparing UK gen 6 GT vs UK gen 6 ST, which as far as I knew the UK 2.0GT gives out around 130bhp rather than 173 or am I getting confused here?? Also I presume the figures for the 3S-GE were probably a little over what they should be because from the type of site it was I'm guessing they had a decat??

Anyhow those figures for the 3s-ge don't paint the full picture. They show the 3s-ge right in it's weak spot - the ACIS changeover point. What about below 3000 rpm, this is where the main low down useful torque is obtained. I don't know about your driving style, but for me, I usually change up around 2.5k to 3k rpm.

I believe the lower point you are talking about would be the 7A-FE's stronger area - I was actually thinking it was advantageous for the 3s-ge to not show that part!!

@mikeb - I haven't commeneted on your graphs etc as I thought I'd wait and see what the actual figutes are for the uk 2.0 GT (I might be getting confused between the 3s-fe and the 3s-ge) I had a quick search and found a recent quote from Spotipus saying he was very pleased when he had his checked to find out it was over stock at 140bhp, after a decat and air filter. I thought it was only the JAP GT which had 170ish bhp??? Please clarify this bit

I'll get a vid done for sotal this eve (I think I've worked out how to mount the camera) then perhaps he can judge it better. Its by no means gives an accurate picture, like mikeb says, you need some proper figures and graphs, but at least its somthing.

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It may be useful to see the vid! ;) Can you shout out the speed and revs as you go (if we can't see them?) So we know what sort of speed you are doing. How are you going to mount the camera??? I'll try and give it a go but I can't see where to mount my camera! My speedo is also calibrated so it's less than 1mph out all the way through the range - some are up to 5mph out, have you had your speedo calibrated??

I'm quite enjoying this topic - I know I'm fighting a losing battle as at the end of the day the famous saying so it all:

"There's no replacement for displacement"

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The uk gen4 celica is 147 hp, the uk gen5 is 158 (154 later cat model), early uk gen6's are 173 hp, later ones are slightly less due to emissions. All jdm cars should be a couple of hp higher, respectively.

Perhaps your figures are for the 3s-fe? They do look about right for that engine.

Maybe spotipus' figure is hp mesaured at the wheels, i.e. on a rolling road. I don't take much notice of rolling road dyno's anyway, there are massive inconsistencies between dynos, and dyno operators apply all kinds of corrections to get the figure the owner wants to hear. IMO their only use is for preliminary ECU mapping (on road mapping afterwards), and doing back to back power runs for checking different mods. Trying to compare one persons dyno result to another is impossible, even if you do repeat runs with the same car, you get small differences. The only hp figures that can be trusted are engine dyno ones, taken under controlled environmental conditions. Of course the manufacturers fudge their figures too, in order to have the most impressive sales literature.

[sotal]

You do realise if I lose this "discussion" It's going to make me want to go out and get a GT instead I was happy in my little bubble believing what others had said about the ST being quicker in some situations

[mikeb]

Also don't foget the fact that the 1.8 weighs less than the GT, so at any point where they are giving off the same power and torque, the ST would actually be going faster :D

Reminds me to take a dump before going out in the 1.8!

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There can't be much weight difference, certainly not from the engine itself. Maybe the smaller brakes, wheels, gearbox are significant though? :P I still suspect that the gear ratio's for the ST might be lower, to improve acceleration.

[sotal]

That's true the standard 14" wheels on the 1.8 will improve acceleration

I think the total difference between the two dry weights is only 50KG but I'm clutching at straws here!

[daktari]

"There's no replacement for displacement"

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This flies in the face of..... ' Forced Induction, The replacement for displacement'

Looking forward to the outcome of this little discussion.

[MattTodd]

Righty,

this is the first car I'll have bought, so I'm trying to come up with a list of things I should look out for. I've noted down what I could think of, is there anything anyone would like to add? Is it worthwile getting an RAC vehicle check done? This is what I've thought of so far, the model I'm going to try and get is the Generation 6 2.0GT UK spec.

Rusty Paintwork

Leaks under car

chassis + engine numbers etc

oil level

tickover

odd sounds during driving

electrics ie windows, locking, mirrors etc

rust / corrosion on underside

service history

tax / mot

One other question. I've read other posts where this model of car is being run on high octane fuel, or with an octane booster. Is this necessary, or is it simply for performance?

Cheers,

Matt

[MIP]

I personally find the higher RON a bit smoother and it seems to give better MPG, though I havn't properly measured. Also, the first thing I had to do with my 95k miles GT was replace the clutch (which the dealer paid half for) as it was slipping. The new one feels a hell of alot better, didn't realize how bad the old clutch was.

[sotal]

Octane booster is only required for imports - Having said that though some people think that using it in high performance UK cras can boost performance and increase mpg. This isn't proven but a lot of people say they have done tests. The best thing do to is run it on regular fuel for a few tanks and see how many MPG you are getting, then use OPtimax and see how many MPG you get. If you get significantly more MPG then it would be worth using it as the extra mileage would offset the extra cost.

You've basically got the check list about right. Watch out for any bodged modifications - I would always prefer to buy a totally standard car. If it's from a garage they should do a HPI check - ask for a copy of it - it should be free.

You should find there is no Rust what-so-ever on a 95+ Toyota so if there is be wary of why there is, often replaced panels rust quicker. The underside is pretty well protected as it has an undertray under the engine which keeps everything nice and tidy under there. Service history is good if it's got it.

Oil Level is important, but not exactly meaningful. Most people will top up the oil or change it to sell the car. If it is losing oil then they would be careful and keep it topped up ready.

Electrics should be fine on a Toyota - just have a play with everything. Check out the manual boot and petrol cap release by the drivers seat - make sure these both work as they can get sticky.

Check when the Cambelt was last changed, if there is no record try and get them to do it. If they won't and you do buy the car - get it changed straight away afterwards.

Also check the temp gauge when you go for a run. It should be completely down to start with (unless they've been running it to keep it warm etc) then it should raise quite quickly - within 5 minutes it will be up to half way and then it shouldn't raise any further.

If possible get someone else to start the car for the first time and check what comes out the exhaust. A little water and a puff of white steam is normal, but grey or blue smoke indicates a problem.

[mikeb]

Sotal's pretty much answered that, but I would add that you should check the condition of the oil more than the level. If it's golden and clean then it has just been replaced which would indicate mainly that the car is well looked after, but at the same time it might have just had fresh oil to sell it as the old stuff was really bad. Really thick black oil would indicate that it's overdue for an oil change.

Before you start the engine make sure to lift the bonnet and feel the top of the engine (carefully!), to make sure that it is completely cold. If they have warmed it up before you get there, are they trying to hide something? Listen to the cold engine when first started, it is likely to be a bit noisier than when warm, but should quieten right down as the temp comes up. Also, check the fast idle speed, it should be around 1800 rpm.

Check the ABS light (and air bag and other warning lights) come on with the ignition, and that they go out after the engine is started.

[MIP]

Just goin back to the ST compared to GT, what u make of the vids sotal?

[sotal]

I've watched and listened to them now!!

It's very difficult to say, from using the timer on the video it seems that you are getting about a 10 second 0-60 time which I'm sure the car can do slightly quicker. I'm guessing gear changes could have been slightly quicker etc.

Initial impressions are that it seems no quicker from a visual aspect than the ST, it does however sound louder and revvier. I think the best way for me to compare is for me to do some videos in the ST in similar circumstances and let you compare them as well. Only problem is I'm going on holiday tonight and I have a million and one things to do before then so I doubt I'll get chance before I go. I will make sure they are done when I return though.

Have you got any mods on the car?? Air Filter? De-cat? lowered?? etc Also what size are your wheels?

My car is standardish. if that makes sense! It isn't standard to how it left the factory but the only parts added to it are genuine parts. The previous owner added a genuine spoiler, and 16" alloy wheels from the 1.8 SR Celica. The 16" alloys are however the same diameter with tyres as the original 14" wheels from the ST.

So my car is probably closer to being an SR now, just needs air con and side skirts and a little SR logo which goes round the side repeaters!

Anyway thanks for doing the videos and we'll compare them as soon as I get the ones done from my car. Still not quite sure how to attach the camera anywhere.

[MIP]

I've watched and listened to them now!!

It's very difficult to say, from using the timer on the video it seems that you are getting about a 10 second 0-60 time which I'm sure the car can do slightly quicker. I'm guessing gear changes could have been slightly quicker etc.

Initial impressions are that it seems no quicker from a visual aspect than the ST, it does however sound louder and revvier. I think the best way for me to compare is for me to do some videos in the ST in similar circumstances and let you compare them as well. Only problem is I'm going on holiday tonight and I have a million and one things to do before then so I doubt I'll get chance before I go. I will make sure they are done when I return though.

Have you got any mods on the car?? Air Filter? De-cat? lowered?? etc Also what size are your wheels?

My car is standardish. if that makes sense! It isn't standard to how it left the factory but the only parts added to it are genuine parts. The previous owner added a genuine spoiler, and 16" alloy wheels from the 1.8 SR Celica. The 16" Alloys are however the same diameter with tyres as the original 14" wheels from the ST.

So my car is probably closer to being an SR now, just needs air con and side skirts and a little SR logo which goes round the side repeaters!

Anyway thanks for doing the videos and we'll compare them as soon as I get the ones done from my car. Still not quite sure how to attach the camera anywhere.

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I wouldn't say 10 seconds. If I do an average of 4 with the stopwatch on my phone, its about 8.5 seconds for the first video with my flat mate, 8.7 for the one on my own, and about 9.5 for the one on the dash. I'm gonna lose time not ragging first too much pulling out the layby rather than goin in a straight line, and slight wheelspin in the wet. And the dashboard one was near impossible, I had to keep holding the cam, it wouldn't stick down, so changing gear was hard. I think the video idea is alot more difficult than I thought, need a proper drag strip and the two side by side I think. Could really do with finding a good way to secure a cam, tape just doesn't cut it.

And my cars stock, UK. Original 15" wheels, toyota services n parts.

I also did one with acceleration from low rev's in 4th gear. I thought it happens slow enough in 4th to really compare the two. I imagine from what your saying that this is where your cars strength would be.

Oh, n enjoy your holiday , I'm off to the global gathering festival this weekend to get ruined, so I'll check back here when I regain conciousness.

[mikeb]

You can't get a feel for the difference by watching a video. And it's impossible to get accurate 0-60 times with just a stopwatch.

Sotal, when you get back off your hols, we should meet up and compare your ST to my gen 5 GT. If we can get a gen 6 GT to come along too it would be even better.

[sotal]

Sounds fun - Where abouts in the country are you? Isn't comparing a gen5 to a gen6 a bit like comparing an Apple with an orange?

I'll still do a video so that we can compare, I'll also use the GPS data logger to plot my speed every second at the same time.

Mikeb - I don't think using a stopwatch is the inaccurate whilst watching the video. I put a marker on the video as he first touched the pedal and and a marker when he hit 60 according to the video that is very close to 10 seconds. It wasn't perfect conditions and he did have to pull out of a layby at the beginning.

Just to make myself clear as well. I relaise that the GT will be more powerful as it has over 60% more bhp - I'm just trying to find out if what I have read on other forums has any merit what-so-ever. To be honest it has now turned into me trying to disprove it :D

The only problem is that if I find out that the GT is significantly faster in all situations then I may well swap the ST in for one! I've never owned a car for more than 2 years, normally they last about 18 months before I get bored or a crazy old woman falls asleep and writes them off (ok that only happened once :D ) I've now had the ST for 12 months so I guess it's doing well - I'm not bored at all with but as I get older and more ncb insurance gets cheaper for faster cars and temptation will settle in. Ok I'm waffling on now and I've got loads of work to do

[MIP]

I don't mind meetin somwhere in the middle if you can, if thats too far then nevermind. I guess that would be about oxford. Could grab a nice pub meal. Probably after payday early next month would be better though.

[sotal]

!Removed! hell, just looked on multimap Newbury is miles away! I'd say Coventry was closer to half way between newbury and stok-on-trent. That might be a bit far for us to go. Lets see where Mike is from to see if that throws a spanner in the works! :D

I still think the video will have merits. If I can do a similar video to your first one, then we can spice them together side by side - starting off at the same time and ending when they get to 60. Almost like a virtual race, without breaking any speed limits/laws or anything else

[MIP]

okey doke, i'll try n find a better road n do another in the the mean time I think.

[sotal]

Not a problem. It would be best to compare your best against my best so as we're comparing the cars maximum performance.

Please be careful though and don't do anything dangerous or illegal

[mikeb]

I live in between Leicester and Coventry, nice and central. I could meet half way to stoke, or just about anywhere within 40 miles or so of Leicester. We could do with finding a nice flat, straight, quiet country lane wherever we meet. I know of one near me that I have used before, but we should be able to find one wherever we meet.

Seeing as we are doing videos, I will see if I can mount my camera somewhere and do a few runs with the g-tech.

[MIP]

Well, I might be going up to nottingham to set up a network in the v. near future, so maybe could tie it in with that trip. I'll post here when thats all arranged.

[MattTodd]

Well, I might be going up to nottingham to set up a network in the v. near future, so maybe could tie it in with that trip. I'll post here when thats all arranged.

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Oooh thats interesting. What do you do for a living? I'm currently taking my exams for MCSE, I'm already qualified as an MCP, and I'm quite good with the odd windows 2000 network lol. All of our office systems are 2003 now like. Sorry, off topic, just interested.

Matt