Just Bought It - Engine Fault - Please Help!

[Lorkmiester]

Guys,

Have driven the car today for 40mins, temp gauge did not leave medium/normal setting until I started to reverse up my driveway.

The fan noise seems fairly quiet, even before starting the engine, and I have not noticed any power drain from the Battery, on the gauge it's always just above half, then once started, just above three quarters.

The last head gasket I had replaced, was on a rover 620 back in 2004, and the total repair cost was £850 due to head being sent away to be re-skimmed, needing a new rad etc.

If my overheating issue is down to a headgasket, I can't see it being repaired for less than £800, and even then I shall be waiting for something else to go, it's getting old, the bad weathers coming and I'm running out of patience and money, and with not knowing anything about engines/cars, it's going to cost me heavily.

I hope it turns out to be anything other and cheaper than the HG, however if it does prove to be the HG, what can I expect to sell the car for? to someone who knows a little more than I do, who can get the work done, and appreciate the car for the future.

I don't meen to sound negative, I love the celica, but I thought I had paid a premium for a mighty fine example, and I only got 90 minutes down the road before this fault occured, my confidence is shot, and I reside on a mountain in the Highlands, and as such require a reliable motor for the winter.......

[GT4 BOOSTER]

take the thermostat out mate and sell it on.

[mikeb]

Don't give up on it yet - the HG may still be intact. These cars are generally very reliable, and once you get this one problem sorted out it will hopefully be healthy for a long time.

Did you try removing the rad cap and checking for air escaping (bubbling)? Remove it carefully if the engine is hot now. Start the car and let it idle for a few minutes, keeping an eye out for air bubbles.

You won't be able sell it for much at all, with a blown HG.

[Lorkmiester]

Don't give up on it yet - the HG may still be intact. These cars are generally very reliable, and once you get this one problem sorted out it will hopefully be healthy for a long time.

Did you try removing the rad cap and checking for air escaping (bubbling)? Remove it carefully if the engine is hot now. Start the car and let it idle for a few minutes, keeping an eye out for air bubbles. 

You won't be able sell it for much at all, with a blown HG.

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Right then, the car has been stood for approx 30mins after it's journey. Just been out, let it idle for a minute as you say, removed radiator cap (still hot underneath, slight spittage), then applied slight revs. White Foaming Bubbling Water then emits continually from radiator :!Removed!:

Does this then clarify that its the HG?

Oh Dear, my hopes have been smashed

[mikeb]

Don't give up on it yet - the HG may still be intact. These cars are generally very reliable, and once you get this one problem sorted out it will hopefully be healthy for a long time.

Did you try removing the rad cap and checking for air escaping (bubbling)? Remove it carefully if the engine is hot now. Start the car and let it idle for a few minutes, keeping an eye out for air bubbles. 

You won't be able sell it for much at all, with a blown HG.

←

Right then, the car has been stood for approx 30mins after it's journey. Just been out, let it idle for a minute as you say, removed radiator cap (still hot underneath, slight spittage), then applied slight revs. White Foaming Bubbling Water then emits continually from radiator :!Removed!:

Does this then clarify that its the HG?

Oh Dear, my hopes have been smashed

←

It does sound like the HG. :(

[Lorkmiester]

Evening All!

Maybe a daft question, however I must ask

Is eBay Item number: 4581022565 the same engine as in my Celica?

If so, should I buy this?

Thanks for any feedback

[mikeb]

Evening All!

Maybe a daft question, however I must ask

Is Ebay Item number: 4581022565 the same engine as in my Celica?

If so, should I buy this?

Thanks for any feedback

←

Afraid not, it's from the later (gen 6) celica. It is almost the same, but you would need a later ECU and loom to make it run right. Try TCB (see stickies) or fensport if you want to do an engine swap. In my opinion it's a pretty close call in terms of the work required (HG replacement vs engine swap).

[Lorkmiester]

Evening All!

Maybe a daft question, however I must ask

Is Ebay Item number: 4581022565 the same engine as in my Celica?

If so, should I buy this?

Thanks for any feedback

←

Afraid not, it's from the later (gen 6) celica. It is almost the same, but you would need a later ECU and loom to make it run right. Try TCB (see stickies) or fensport if you want to do an engine swap. In my opinion it's a pretty close call in terms of the work required (HG replacement vs engine swap).

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Hi MikeB, thanks for the advice.

Emailed Fensport this morning, they have quoted 3SGE Engines Low mileage Jap Import - Bare Engines - Price includes New cambelt & Oil filter £495 (as per their website) + £85 carriage this eems fair to me, but what do I know , probably cheaper than the HG Repair, what do you reckon? :!Removed!:

Tempted to just go with this, should make the car bullet proof for a while?

[daktari]

Pretty much a swings and roundabouts scenario. At least Fennies warranty the engine. But IF it is duff - it`s the agro of keep swapping them around and the delivery etc... Whereas the HG rebuild if done right will be good for a fair few thousand miles..... You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Hengist]

With regard to HG replacement cost, I would feel mighty hard done by if it cost me 800 squids, even with a head skim.

I started a thread at TOC! on the subject ... here's how it's going:

http://www.celica-club.co.uk/cgibin/phpbb2...p=459383#459383

Angus

[Lorkmiester]

OK, Thanks Angus.

I shall be sure to check it out.

[Lorkmiester]

Angus,

In your opinion is safer to get the head gasket fixed, or get a replacement engine fitted as they may work out to be a similar cost.

As you know the background of the car a lot more extensively than I, I would appreciate your sound opinion, as I would hate to replace the head at a cost of half the cars sale value, and then another paramount component fail casusing hefty repair bills once again.

I need to make a decision on this, and get it booked into a garage next week.

Thanks for your valued feedback.

[Hengist]

Personally, and having run the car for three years, I thought it entirely solid and one of the best cars I've ever owned - I'd be seriously tempted to get the HG done if you can get someone to do it for a reasonable price - this talk of £800+ is a little off-putting, but I'm pretty sure you can get it done for considerably less.

It depends whether the head needs skimming, and where your local garages send jobs like that to be done (not likely to have the facilities themselves).

I'd ask them straight up for a quote for replacing the HG, and how different the cost would be if the head needed skimmed. Go round them all and ask them - say you're pretty sure it needs a HG job, and what would the cost be?

Other than that, I really can't think of anything I've ever had any trouble with on that car. Had I any worries, I certainly wouldn't have taken it across Europe. So, as far as I'm concerned, I'd get the HG done rather than changing engines.

If you decide to go down the replacement engine route, you could always also try TCB in Cornwall for a quote ... can't recall their number, but they have a website at www.tcbperformanceparts.co.uk (or .com, maybe). They always have a large stock of Celica bits for (usually) reasonable prices.

Angus

[Lorkmiester]

Angus,

Thanks for your feedback, I shall indeed conduct a ring a round later today.

Thanks.

[daktari]

Just as an aside to Angus`s comment about the £800 price tag for HG replacement. I asked the young lady in the office to do me an approximate breakdown of a HG replacement for a Ford Transit 2.5DI engine. I realise it`s not a Celica engine but it`s pretty much the same ammount of work involved. Goes as follows.

Remove, dismantle and Clean Cyl head. £100

Head skim (Contracted out) £45

Pattern HG set Inc all gaskets (Payen) £78

Rebuild and presure test £120

Anti freeze £10

Oil & Filter change £40

So thats less than £400 all in and it takes two days. Our hourly rate is £45 PH. And if you wanted the cambelt done at the same time it would be another £140 inc new tensioner and idler.

The only difference i can see is that the Celica head takes a bit longer to remove and the gaskets will probably vary in price. But if you can find a good local garage that can do it at reasonable rates then i should think you could get it done for about £400 +/-

[Lorkmiester]

Just as an aside to Angus`s comment about the £800 price tag for HG replacement. I asked the young lady in the office to do me an approximate breakdown of a HG replacement for a Ford Transit 2.5DI engine. I realise it`s not a Celica engine but it`s pretty much the same ammount of work involved. Goes as follows.

Remove, dismantle and Clean Cyl head. £100

Head skim (Contracted out) £45

Pattern HG set Inc all gaskets (Payen) £78

Rebuild and presure test £120

Anti freeze £10

Oil & Filter change £40

So thats less than £400 all in and it takes two days. Our hourly rate is £45 PH. And if you wanted the cambelt done at the same time it would be another £140 inc new tensioner and idler.

The only difference i can see is that the Celica head takes a bit longer to remove and the gaskets will probably vary in price. But if you can find a good local garage that can do it at reasonable rates then i should think you could get it done for about £400 +/- 

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That's a great help Mate, thanks for that :) Gives me some indication of what I should be hearing when the three nearest garages to me return my calls this afternoon with their quotes.

Feeling a little more confident regarding the finances now, cheers

[daktari]

Good luck. :D

[mikeb]

Well, I don't know anything about a 2.5 diesel transit engine , but I doubt that it's similar enough to a celica engine for much of a price comparison. The retail price for the head gasket set is around £120 IIRC. I have done the job myself, and my guess is about 10 hours labour, for a competent garage that has is familiar with celicas. I think I spent about a day getting the head off, and a bit longer again to put it back on. A local cylinder head specialist did a total recon (including skim) on the head for £100. I only did the job myself because the toyota dealer had quoted me a silly amount. They told me that they budget 17 hours labour for the job. If the 'book time' really does state 5.2 hours, then it's taking the p*ss.

I too would be inclined to repair the engine you have. A replacement engine may 'only' cost £500, but it will be another £300-£500 to fit it.

You are doing the right thing getting some quotes for the work, but bear in mind that a garage that is not familiar with celicas might only be able to give you an estimate without actually lifting the bonnet to see the amount of work involved. I would be surprised if any garage has a labour rate of less than £35 an hour. So with my guess of 10 hours (probably optimistic) plus a trade price of £50 for the gaskets, you are talking about £400, not inlcuding skimming the head (a machine shop will probably want £40 min trade for that). Then there's all the other little bits - changing oil and filter, coolant (try and get them to use toyota red 4life coolant if possible). If any garage quotes under £500 I would be impressed. Alternatively, if you know someone who is prepared to do it for 'mates rates', then you could probably get it done cheaper (but make sure they know what they are taking on!).

Make sure that the quote includes replacing the valve stem seals (they are included in the gasket set), and it would be false economy not to install them while you have the head in bits. The garage might not include this in their price, as they probably wouldn't change them unless you ask. It might also be worth re shimming the lifters as well - I think Toyota recommend this is done at 60k mile intervals, but the 3s-ge engine seems to be very well behaved in this respect.

There are some really fiddly quirks of the job on the celica. For example, there are some vertical struts that run between the back of the inlet manifold and the bottom of the block. They are an absolute pain to get access to at the rear of the manifold, if they don't come undone easily you have to release them at the bottom and lift the head with the whole lot still attached (it is practically impossible to remove the inlet manifold with the head on). Then there's the cam belt tensioner, which is hidden under the engine mounting. You can't even get the cam belt cover bolts undone without undoing the engine mount and jacking the engine up. I suspect it's a slightly easier job on the GT4 (due to the simpler inlet manifold).

Oh, I almost forgot - make sure they check the water pump and replace it if they are in any doubt. By the time they have got the head off looking at the water pump is a small task, but if you find you need a water pump replacement later on, it will cost a whole load more labour. The head gasket blew for a reason, presumably overheating. I would be suspicous of the water pump, especially as the previous owner claims to have replaced the thermostat recently.

Goodluck.

[Lorkmiester]

Well, I don't know anything about a 2.5 diesel transit engine  , but I doubt that it's similar enough to a celica engine for much of a price comparison. The retail price for the head gasket set is around £120 IIRC. I have done the job myself, and my guess is about 10 hours labour, for a competent garage that has is familiar with celicas. I think I spent about a day getting the head off, and a bit longer again to put it back on. A local cylinder head specialist did a total recon (including skim) on the head for £100. I only did the job myself because the toyota dealer had quoted me a silly amount. They told me that they budget 17 hours labour for the job. If the 'book time' really does state 5.2 hours, then it's taking the p*ss.

I too would be inclined to repair the engine you have. A replacement engine may 'only' cost £500, but it will be another £300-£500 to fit it.

You are doing the right thing getting some quotes for the work, but bear in mind that a garage that is not familiar with celicas might only be able to give you an estimate without actually lifting the bonnet to see the amount of work involved. I would be surprised if any garage has a labour rate of less than £35 an hour. So with my guess of 10 hours (probably optimistic) plus a trade price of £50 for the gaskets, you are talking about £400, not inlcuding skimming the head (a machine shop will probably want £40 min trade for that). Then there's all the other little bits - changing oil and filter, coolant (try and get them to use toyota red 4life coolant if possible). If any garage quotes under £500 I would be impressed. Alternatively, if you know someone who is prepared to do it for 'mates rates', then you could probably get it done cheaper (but make sure they know what they are taking on!).

Make sure that the quote includes replacing the valve stem seals (they are included in the gasket set), and it would be false economy not to install them while you have the head in bits. The garage might not include this in their price, as they probably wouldn't change them unless you ask. It might also be worth re shimming the lifters as well - I think Toyota recommend this is done at 60k mile intervals, but the 3s-ge engine seems to be very well behaved in this respect.

There are some really fiddly quirks of the job on the celica. For example, there are some vertical struts that run between the back of the inlet manifold and the bottom of the block. They are an absolute pain to get access to at the rear of the manifold, if they don't come undone easily you have to release them at the bottom and lift the head with the whole lot still attached (it is practically impossible to remove the inlet manifold with the head on). Then there's the cam belt tensioner, which is hidden under the engine mounting. You can't even get the cam belt cover bolts undone without undoing the engine mount and jacking the engine up. I suspect it's a slightly easier job on the GT4 (due to the simpler inlet manifold).

Oh, I almost forgot - make sure they check the water pump and replace it if they are in any doubt. By the time they have got the head off looking at the water pump is a small task, but if you find you need a water pump replacement later on, it will cost a whole load more labour. The head gasket blew for a reason, presumably overheating. I would be suspicous of the water pump, especially as the previous owner claims to have replaced the thermostat recently.

Goodluck. 

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MikeB, Your are quite simply a Dr of the Celica Engine. Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Your knowledge and experience would appear vast, and your posting has helped me establish what the garages are quoting for, instead of just a 'headgasket job', I now have an idea of the intrinsic stages and parts....

However all this leaves me somewhat bewildered, and furthermore concerned for the reliability of the engine once repaired.

My main critisism is that I paid £1100 for this car, and as such I cannot really warrant spending a penny over £400 to get it fixed up and back on the road with a reasonable level of confidence in it's reliablilty for a further 12 months.

With two other cars to run, the Celica has turned into a hinderance I just don't need (I thought I was paying a fiar price for a second family car for the school run etc, but a spirited drivers car for me for the weekend whenever applicable). The 2 quotes received so far are both estimates at £600 + dependant on their inspection (told them it's HG).

Now I have used the car again today (probably a silly move I know) took it for a 40 min spin to the post office, and it didn't overheat on the gauge, though coolant bubbling on engine switch off, so it's HOT!

At the risk of sounding non-comitted to my newly purchased Celica, I'm very tempted to just sell it on, with decalring it's fault of course, and try and recoup what I can without spending further cash on it.

By contrast I have a Mercedes S500 which is only 4 years newer than the Celica and so far it hasn't cost me a penny in repairs.... £500 would buy a nice set of AMG alloys, or do I repair the Celica? One ponders, perhaps this is just a bit of bad luck that could be put behind me with a HG repair

[mikeb]

I think you will be more out of pocket if you sell it with the blown HG, than if you pay to get it repaired. I doubt that anyone will pay over £500 for it in it's current state, so you would be £600 down on what you paid for it.

You got the car for a good price (apart from the problem that has since (allegedly) developed). So if you get it fixed it should be worth at least what you paid for it, and possibly slightly more if you find the right buyer.

These cars are generally very reliable, and you may well get another 100k+ miles out of it without further problems (not including wearables, e.g clutch). I can see how this HG problem will have knocked your confidence in the car though.

It might be worth driving the car to a few of the more intersted garages so that they can pop the bonnet and have a look at what they are dealing with. You should be able to judge their reaction to get an idea of how confident they are with undertaking the job, along with a more accurate estimate.

When you say the coolant was bubbling when you switched it off, was this in the expansion tank or in the radiator? It is fairly common for the rad cap to loose pressure and allow coolant out too easily - it should only relieve pressure when the car is starting to overheat. If the rad cap is weak, it lets coolant out before it should do, and is one reason why you could end up seeing bubbling coolant in the expansion tank.

Just another thought - it might be worth doing a compression test on the engine. This would confirm for definite a blown headgasket, and even reveal which cylinder is the culprit (not that it really matters).

[Lorkmiester]

MikeB, Hi

Valid comments yet again, you are right, it's just me trying to take the easy option by attempting to sell in it's current state.

It shall undoubtedly have to be repaired prior to sale.

I now have a number for a local village 'one man band' mechanic who reportedly charges just £15 per hour labour. Going to call him tomorrow and request he comes to take a look, like you say I shall judge his reaction and confidence in completing the job.

The coolant in the expansion tank is bubbling, the radiator is just releasing steam/mist from the cap, I think.... HAven't even lifted the bonnet on the last few journeys. Still driving 100% though.

Many thanks for all your feedback on this Mike, it really is appreciated.

All The Best,

Lloyd

[Lorkmiester]

It's on eBay

[mikeb]

The coolant in the expansion tank is bubbling, the radiator is just releasing steam/mist from the cap, I think.... HAven't even lifted the bonnet on the last few journeys. Still driving 100% though.

←

Sorry, I must have missed you posting this. If it's not bubbling from at the top of the rad, then it may not be a leaking head gasket. Bubbling in the expansion tank would be expected if the car is getting hot.

Did you try the local mechanic, or getting a compression test done?

Sorry to hear you are selling. Just looked on eBay and there are loads of celicas on there, some of the healthy ones seem to be selling for the same as your starting price. Goodluck with the sale. :)

[chris202]

well if its any help i just had a low mileage 3sfe put into my gen6 celica, it cost me £411 (incl) delivery for the 66k engine from leeds , then another £380 to have it fitted including new timing belt etc etc . i guess your cost would be pretty similar to that . I was also victim of e bay :censor:

[Lorkmiester]

Hi MikeB, & Crismillencolin!

Thanks for the posts. The guy I sourced at £15ph would'nt touch it, as he usually just works on old rusting 4x4's in fields.....

Sorry to hear that you were also a victim of eBay Cris, it's a sodding nightmare when you blow your whole budget on purchasing the car which you belive to be solid and reliable for a god few months, and then.........£'s to repir!

Your engine cost and labour charge sounds pretty reasonable I guess.

If the car does not sell, I shall of course be forced to sell my body to fix it up, and then re-sell as a superb example. I cannot keep it now, as I am starting to feel nothing but contempt for it I'm afraid!

Thanks again guys for all the advice.