Insurers Quake When I Say "k&n"

[LORD_ED]

Induction kits in my opinion are a complete and utter waste of time.

for you townies they are, but us country folk with open roads and no traffic they are awesome

[playr158]

lol i find this thread pretty funny...i guess you UK guys have it alot harder then us in the states?

why not just not mention the intake? i highly doubt they will pop the hood and check for your coverage...

i mean i had bodykit, drop, rims, exhaust, intake, painted different color, completely stripped and didn't tell my insurance...i mean im not even telling them about a 3sgte that is getting transplanted...

so why tell them you have a k&n ?

[chris202]

lol i find this thread pretty funny...i guess you UK guys have it alot harder then us in the states?

why not just not mention the intake? i highly doubt they will pop the hood and check for your coverage...

i mean i had bodykit, drop, rims, exhaust, intake, painted different color, completely stripped and didn't tell my insurance...i mean im not even telling them about a 3sgte that is getting transplanted...

so why tell them you have a k&n ?

Because we have lots of scary drivers who like to crash into celicas and if this happens and you have'nt be truthfull to mr insurance he'll make sure you dont receive a penny for your car

[ccjj85]

yeah, but most people want an induction kit to make it sound nice!

I know what you mean, but it's either -

Induction Kit = Great Sound, Lowers Performance in Some cases, Lowers MPG

Panel Filter = Not much Sound (Note, remove "resinator box" if thats what it's called which will help with increasing the sound (Further note, the "resinator box" is the thing that shoots of the induction pipe before the air box)), and adds a little to performance, Dos'nt lose to much MPG

At the end of the day, unless you run a mega turbo or supercharger, or if the manufacturer of the car can't get the induction system right theres no need for a induction kit.

Plus, the 3S-GE engine makes one of the Sweetest Sounds you can hear while under pressure at high revs, why would you want to distort that with a induction kit????

anyway, i've had my two penith worth on this subject, i will just leave it at, it's your car, you have to drive it, it should be how you want it.

Tony

You sure about MPG loss??.. Aftermarket intake kits reduce the restriction on the engine leading to more effiencient fuel combustion.

[Special Red]

lol i drilled 50 or so small holes in the bottom of my corsa 1.4 air box it sounds like like a v8 trans -am now , but with !Removed! performance. lol

:lol2: i cant believe you modified your corsa!

Have you got the burberry cap to go with it

He could come back at you with 'I cant believe you drive a Toyota, Do you wear a turban!!!'

Also Induction kits do increase MPG. The noise just means you want to drive it harder. Love the way people slate them but yet believe they experience massive gains through optimax!

Dont listen to the tool telling you not to declare as he obviously has one brain cell and he is cruising for a nasty wake up call! Plus he is as bad as uninsured drivers, and thats why you probably pay the amount you do!

Leeky - Why are they a waste of time??? every heavily modded car in the world will have forced induction, mind you throttle bodies are a nice way to make your car sound like a weapon of mass destruction!

[Dan_Q]

From reports i have heard, which are probarly the same sources and experience as frodo, panel filters seem to give the best power, sometimes with the assistance of a drilled airbox.

I have a K&N and it sounds great- main reason I have it, but there was no performance gain except increased throttle respone in my experience.

I'm insures with adrian flux and I think the extra cost to insurance was around £30, and I think they said a lot of that was an admin charge to change the paperwork because i fitted it in the middle of a policy.

[frodo]

Hiya Dan

Good to see you on here.

Yeah, experience has shown that on the 5th gen 3sge, the panel filter works best. 3sgte works best with a cai cone.

The 6th gen 3sge on the other hand works best with a cai cone, as does the 3sgte

I never noticed my fuel consumption being any worse for having a k&n, and it shouldn't be, as its better at filtering than the stock filter, especially after a little bit of time, when the stock filter starts to clog up.

The only reason it would be worse is that you like the sound it makes, and drive to make it sound loud. If you drive normally (hard I know), it should be better.

[mikeb]

Because we have lots of scary drivers who like to crash into celicas and if this happens and you have'nt be truthfull to mr insurance he'll make sure you dont receive a penny for your car

Well technically, if they drive into you it's their fault, and their insurance company pays up, regardless of what mods you have. But yes, you would invalidate your own insurance, so it's not a very clever thing to do.

He could come back at you with 'I cant believe you drive a Toyota, Do you wear a turban!!!'

What are you on about??

Also Induction kits do increase MPG. The noise just means you want to drive it harder. Love the way people slate them but yet believe they experience massive gains through optimax!

Seeing as an air filter is a passive component - it does nothing but sit there and filter out dirt from the intake, and petrol is an active component at the heart of the combustion process, I'd say that they are right and you are wrong. ;)

Dont listen to the tool telling you not to declare as he obviously has one brain cell and he is cruising for a nasty wake up call! Plus he is as bad as uninsured drivers, and thats why you probably pay the amount you do!

Did you not notice that the poster was from the US, and that he was pointing out how we are raped by our insurance companies here in the UK by having to declare every single little mod, whereas over there insurance companies just cover them? I'd say you are the tool.

Leeky - Why are they a waste of time??? every heavily modded car in the world will have forced induction, mind you throttle bodies are a nice way to make your car sound like a weapon of mass destruction!

Vacuum across the air filter in a forced induction setup is pretty much irrelevent, when compared to an NA engine. And why does every heavily modified car in the world have forced induction?

[Tarby777]

I opened this thread up again yesterday because it was originally about insurance quotes and I had some info to share, but I replied to the wrong post and my new post ended up going somewhere in the middle of the thread and no-one saw it. So, I'll try again...

I'm taking the K&N 57i off and going back to the old airbox, and I've been getting some quotes as renewal time is only a month away. I found swiftcover.com to be cheapest of all (c.£230), then Direct Line (c.£330), and most of the main players came in at around £460, which is what I paid last year. I tried the insurers that others have mentioned in this thread, but Swiftcover came out cheapest by a long way, and I was wondering whether anyone on TOC had used them / heard horror stories etc. I Googled and found a bunch of Elise owners who were very happy with Swiftcover and who, like me, had found them way cheaper than the rest. I haven't found anyone slagging them off, so it looks like I'll be going with them...

Cheers,

Tarby

[Special Red]

Because we have lots of scary drivers who like to crash into celicas and if this happens and you have'nt be truthfull to mr insurance he'll make sure you dont receive a penny for your car

Well technically, if they drive into you it's their fault, and their insurance company pays up, regardless of what mods you have. But yes, you would invalidate your own insurance, so it's not a very clever thing to do.

He could come back at you with 'I cant believe you drive a Toyota, Do you wear a turban!!!'

What are you on about??

Also Induction kits do increase MPG. The noise just means you want to drive it harder. Love the way people slate them but yet believe they experience massive gains through optimax!

Seeing as an air filter is a passive component - it does nothing but sit there and filter out dirt from the intake, and petrol is an active component at the heart of the combustion process, I'd say that they are right and you are wrong. ;)

Dont listen to the tool telling you not to declare as he obviously has one brain cell and he is cruising for a nasty wake up call! Plus he is as bad as uninsured drivers, and thats why you probably pay the amount you do!

Did you not notice that the poster was from the US, and that he was pointing out how we are raped by our insurance companies here in the UK by having to declare every single little mod, whereas over there insurance companies just cover them? I'd say you are the tool.

Leeky - Why are they a waste of time??? every heavily modded car in the world will have forced induction, mind you throttle bodies are a nice way to make your car sound like a weapon of mass destruction!

Vacuum across the air filter in a forced induction setup is pretty much irrelevent, when compared to an NA engine. And why does every heavily modified car in the world have forced induction?

Alot of asians drive toyotas mate! Thats what Im on about! Never seen a Burbery cap worn by any corsa driver so just commenting on a generalisation by Adam!!!

Whilst petrol is obviously very important , without air, combustion is not possible! by forcing air into the engine you increase the amount of fuel the engine can burn and so increase performance, basically a turbocharger works in a similar way, increases air flow! I would say airflow was an integral part of how an engine runs and so would plenty of others. Just so you know air fliters are not the same as forced induction kits, so before you comment make sure you read the post.

Do rally cars have induction kits and touring cars?!?!?!? oh and this small racing series called F1 has them or are they not heavily moddified cars! ;)

Now this may get me in trouble but it needs saying, Your being an w@nker! Some guy says dont notify your insurance and you stick up for him! Why!!!!! Yes he was commenting on how expensive insurance is but read on and you'll see he also advises him to hide details from his insurance company!!! What happens if he listened to the american lad and did not notify insurance company and drove into YOUR car and YOU could not claim! Exactly so If you want to pick a fight do it with someone else! and at least have valid points.

Apologies to Tarby as I was only trying to give you an opinion and some one has used it as an excuse to have a go! Plus as you live in Stockport there is more chance of you crashing into me, so please notify your insurance!!! ;)

[kirst_ie]

I would seriously try andrian Flux, the insurance for my pug was only £550 and that had every mod on it you can imagine.

Speical Red as you said air filter are not the same as induction kits, why didn't you expain so the people who don't know will understand what your on about

An air filter does exactly what it says, it filters the air for bits such as dust and dirt that is in the air so it does not go into your cylinders.

Induction kits: For example the K&N induction kits are designed to dramatically reduce intake restriction as they smooth and straighten air flow. This allows your vehicle's engine to inhale a larger volume of air than the OEM air filter assembly. More air means more usable power and acceleration throughout the engine's RPM range.

I don't see how they improve fuel usage, the more air mean more fuel, thats what ive been taught at college anyway.

[mikeb]

Whilst petrol is obviously very important , without air, combustion is not possible! by forcing air into the engine you increase the amount of fuel the engine can burn and so increase performance, basically a turbocharger works in a similar way, increases air flow! I would say airflow was an integral part of how an engine runs and so would plenty of others. Just so you know air fliters are not the same as forced induction kits, so before you comment make sure you read the post.

'Induction kit' DOES NOT EQUAL 'forced induction'. They are two very different things. An air filter does not force air into the engine, the downward action of the pistion sucks it in. Yes it goes through the air filter, which could be a potential restriction. But anyone who has actually measured the pressure drop across an OEM air box/filter arrangement will be aware that any gains from aftermarket filters are absolutely negligible.

Do rally cars have induction kits and touring cars?!?!?!? oh and this small racing series called F1 has them or are they not heavily moddified cars! ;)

Of course rally cars, touring cars and F1 cars don't have 'induction kits'. Have you ever seen them on the shelves at Halfords or in the demon tweeks catalogue? They have tuned custom induction systems to match the rest of the engine. The whole setup is shockwave tuned, do you really think aftermarket induction kits achieve the same thing? Oh, and rally cars have forced induction (turbo), touring cars are NA, so the induction requirements are quite different.

Now this may get me in trouble but it needs saying, Your being an w@nker! Some guy says dont notify your insurance and you stick up for him! Why!!!!! Yes he was commenting on how expensive insurance is but read on and you'll see he also advises him to hide details from his insurance company!!! What happens if he listened to the american lad and did not notify insurance company and drove into YOUR car and YOU could not claim! Exactly so If you want to pick a fight do it with someone else! and at least have valid points.

???? Did you actually read my post, the bit where I stated: "But yes, you would invalidate your own insurance, so it's not a very clever thing to do." That's called being polite - obviously something you still have to learn.

Again, the American bloke was just pointing out that in the US, their car insurance companies are much more reasonable when it comes to modifications. In the situation you describe, I'm sure the at fault parties insurance would pay out to an innocent the 3rd party.

[Special Red]

I would seriously try andrian Flux, the insurance for my pug was only £550 and that had every mod on it you can imagine.

Speical Red as you said air filter are not the same as induction kits, why didn't you expain so the people who don't know will understand what your on about

An air filter does exactly what it says, it filters the air for bits such as dust and dirt that is in the air so it does not go into your cylinders.

Induction kits: For example the K&N induction kits are designed to dramatically reduce intake restriction as they smooth and straighten air flow. This allows your vehicle's engine to inhale a larger volume of air than the OEM air filter assembly. More air means more usable power and acceleration throughout the engine's RPM range.

I don't see how they improve fuel usage, the more air mean more fuel, thats what ive been taught at college anyway.

Kirsty. by having more responce at lower rpm you dont have to work the engine as much due to the gains in performance, so therefore MPG is improved, if driven in the same manner. Basically the main gain is responce so dont think it will iprove your car by 5MPG as it won't.

Most people know the difference on here and Im sure Mike does. I was pointing out the gains from experience and having read up on the subject induction kits. Basically they force air towards the filter directly compared with a panel filter that sucks up available surrounding air. Benefits are that the air is colder(more dense) and is feed to the filter in a much higher volume.

Just remember your tutor called 'all Mercs' cr@p, so Id be wary of most things he says!

[adamgt]

Alot of asians drive toyotas mate! Thats what Im on about! Never seen a Burbery cap worn by any corsa driver so just commenting on a generalisation by Adam!!!

All the chav's round here drive corsas with lexus lights and there is always a car full of em wearing burberry caps and nike shocks etc. I dont know whats going through their heads when they try and race me

[kirst_ie]

Kirsty. by having more responce at lower rpm you dont have to work the engine as much due to the gains in performance, so therefore MPG is improved, if driven in the same manner. Basically the main gain is responce so dont think it will iprove your car by 5MPG as it won't.

Most people know the difference on here and Im sure Mike does. I was pointing out the gains from experience and having read up on the subject induction kits. Basically they force air towards the filter directly compared with a panel filter that sucks up available surrounding air. Benefits are that the air is colder(more dense) and is feed to the filter in a much higher volume.

Just remember your tutor called 'all Mercs' cr@p, so Id be wary of most things he says!

You've spelt my name wrong Even tho its spelt for you above my avatar!

Also im 3 months off being a qualified mechanic so i don't reckon he's a bad tutor after all. Do you?

Also chav's round by me anyway ware trackie trousers with rockport boots and they think they've got a bad car just by taking the baffels out of the exhaust and cutting the spring to lower it. There nothing but dole dosing scrubbers IMHO!

[Special Red]

Alot of asians drive toyotas mate! Thats what Im on about! Never seen a Burbery cap worn by any corsa driver so just commenting on a generalisation by Adam!!!

All the chav's round here drive corsas with lexus lights and there is always a car full of em wearing burberry caps and nike shocks etc. I dont know whats going through their heads when they try and race me

I knew what you meant ;) , just got a softspot for the Griffin Badge and so have seen alot of nice examples and trust me the owners hate the image they have!!! I hate Lexus lights soooooooooo much!

I find they have made the Saxo the new Nova round my way!!! Trouble is one day you will probably meet one which gives you a nasty suprise as people like dropping Calibra Turbo engines in them! Obviously you would be suprised by the fact you could still make them out in your rear view mirror in 2nd gear as opposed to first!

Kirst ie - Good luck on passing, im sure you wont need it!

Mike - I was not reading your post as I was commenting on the American lads post not yours. You jumped in and now the thread is <I thought I could get past the swearing filter - what a sad muppet I am eh?> all use to him as its over run with this! Also how polite would you be if it happened to you?!?!? so the fact we are on a forum means nothing, my attitude remains the same on this issue. Being polite is like being two faced, dont agree with what there doing say so. The comment on induction was meant to come across like this, improved 'Induction' will make a car more powerful and responsive. No where was I saying or intending to imply that what you put on your Road car is the same as whats on rally cars or F1, just sayint that if they use them to achieve max power etc then obviously the principle of induction applies to Road going vehicles! Induction kits generally provide a cold air feed and an improved filtering, which will with out a doubt improve performance over a standard filter and in my experience it improves the car more than using Optimax. Dont lets drift away from why all this started. You agree with me on the whole insurance thing so why have a go???? So when you called me a tool that was polite but if I call someone a tool for advising someone to not have insurance Im not!

Just copied this and its £49.99 from a shop and my point is best explained by this paragraph. - 'Working exclusively with ITG, suppliers to Formula 1 and International touring car teams, we have developed a range of performance foam Air Filters, which out perform existing after-market filters in both air-flow and filtration characteristics. Our sports filters now offer significant improvements to engine output, producing more top-end power and improving throttle response on both Turbo and Normally aspirated models.'

[chris202]

I dont know about anyone else but after i fitted my induction kit i felt response was better but i've been getting flat-spots while accelerating which i believe is due to heat-soak . So its coming off , panle filter and 'maybe' a few holes drilled in the box , cause a like the sound :D

AND more importantly , please tell your insurance companys about mods . Norwich union refused to pay out to my mate after he had fitted lexus (crap) lights . He's still fighting with them , 9 months later (teach him to buy a vectra LOL)

[Special Red]

I dont know about anyone else but after i fitted my induction kit i felt response was better but i've been getting flat-spots while accelerating which i believe is due to heat-soak . So its coming off , panle filter and 'maybe' a few holes drilled in the box , cause a like the sound :D

AND more importantly , please tell your insurance companys about mods . Norwich union refused to pay out to my mate after he had fitted lexus (crap) lights . He's still fighting with them , 9 months later (teach him to buy a vectra LOL)

Cris why dont you get one of the shield things that stop heat getting to the filter, dont look to effective but got rid of my flatspots. Basically its a plastic box that blocks heat from the engine getting to the filter.

[mikeb]

Induction kits generally provide a cold air feed and an improved filtering, which will with out a doubt improve performance over a standard filter and in my experience it improves the car more than using Optimax.

There's a massive amount of doubt. You'd need to use an engine dyno (i.e. not a chassis dyno) to even attempt to measure any improvements made by changing the air filter. Anyone who says they can 'feel' the difference from the driving seat is suffering from the effect of placebo (or the extra noise).

The OEM airbox and ducting provides a cold air feed, and it was computer designed by the same people that know all the parameters of the engine, not some 3rd party tuning company that designed an 'induction kit' without full knowledge of the engine.

I could imagine that a ram pipe (i.e. ducting to the front of the car) to pick up ram air whilst travelling at speed would be about the only thing to improve performance. But again, the OEM ducting already does this to an extent, with the inlet just behind the headlight (on the gen 5, not sure where it is on the gen 6).

Just copied this and its £49.99 from a shop and my point is best explained by this paragraph. - 'Working exclusively with ITG, suppliers to Formula 1 and International touring car teams, we have developed a range of performance foam Air Filters, which out perform existing after-market filters in both air-flow and filtration characteristics. Our sports filters now offer significant improvements to engine output, producing more top-end power and improving throttle response on both Turbo and Normally aspirated models.'

Well they would say that, they sell the things afterall. Foam air filters usually offer shocking filtration - that's OK for a race car where the engine will be rebuilt regularly, but most people don't want to do that with a road car.

[Sketchy]

I dont know about anyone else but after i fitted my induction kit i felt response was better but i've been getting flat-spots while accelerating which i believe is due to heat-soak . So its coming off , panle filter and 'maybe' a few holes drilled in the box , cause a like the sound :D

AND more importantly , please tell your insurance companys about mods . Norwich union refused to pay out to my mate after he had fitted lexus (crap) lights . He's still fighting with them , 9 months later (teach him to buy a vectra LOL)

Cris why dont you get one of the shield things that stop heat getting to the filter, dont look to effective but got rid of my flatspots. Basically its a plastic box that blocks heat from the engine getting to the filter.

That'll be like the stock intake will trd panel filter then

[Special Red]

Induction kits generally provide a cold air feed and an improved filtering, which will with out a doubt improve performance over a standard filter and in my experience it improves the car more than using Optimax.

There's a massive amount of doubt. You'd need to use an engine dyno (i.e. not a chassis dyno) to even attempt to measure any improvements made by changing the air filter. Anyone who says they can 'feel' the difference from the driving seat is suffering from the effect of placebo (or the extra noise).

The OEM airbox and ducting provides a cold air feed, and it was computer designed by the same people that know all the parameters of the engine, not some 3rd party tuning company that designed an 'induction kit' without full knowledge of the engine.

I could imagine that a ram pipe (i.e. ducting to the front of the car) to pick up ram air whilst travelling at speed would be about the only thing to improve performance. But again, the OEM ducting already does this to an extent, with the inlet just behind the headlight (on the gen 5, not sure where it is on the gen 6).

Just copied this and its £49.99 from a shop and my point is best explained by this paragraph. - 'Working exclusively with ITG, suppliers to Formula 1 and International touring car teams, we have developed a range of performance foam Air Filters, which out perform existing after-market filters in both air-flow and filtration characteristics. Our sports filters now offer significant improvements to engine output, producing more top-end power and improving throttle response on both Turbo and Normally aspirated models.'

Well they would say that, they sell the things afterall. Foam air filters usually offer shocking filtration - that's OK for a race car where the engine will be rebuilt regularly, but most people don't want to do that with a road car.

Yeah but they cant quote that they supply F1 without it being true. There has to be some substance in what there saying, but agree there not going to put anything that is not good for them PR wise.

I dont agree with you about the difference not being noticable as my exhaust used to drown the noise out anyway, and it was the pick up from 1500rpm that was the big difference and the reason I believe this is because once a week for 4 years i drove to Derby on A-Roads and in certain places where over taking was a bit risky before it did give that extra ooomph. Plus it was a case of not having to drop a gear where I used to do before it was fitted. Im sure that K&N invest heavily in most of there products so would not really call them 3rd rate.

Sketchster - Its open topped to let some air escape so that its mainly cold air being taken in. On most cars ive seen the stock box basically draws its air from a hole above the wheel arch but having never checked the toyota would not know whether they do as Mike says and give it some sort of direct air feed as standard.

[mikeb]

If an aftermarket air filter is capable of improving performance (in terms of power, lets not even think about filtration performance), then it will only make any difference at full throttle and high RPM.

An N/A engine sucks in air through the inlet system. Whenever the throttle is not fully open it is doing exactly what it says - throttling the engine by placing a (variable) restriction in the intake. Now an air filter is a restriction in just the same way (abeit a very small one). But the engine can't tell the difference between where the restriction is made, to all intents and purposes it's the same effect. So, if an aftermarket air filter offers a reduced restriction, you will get the same amount of air drawn in, but with a very slightly smaller throttle opening. Ultimately, the same amount of air is entering the engine, which requires the same amount of fuel, which makes the same power output.

With regards to RPM, well peak torque is at 4800 rpm with these engines. This is where volumetric efficiency (i.e. 'breathing'), is at it's maximum. At 4800 rpm the engine is drawing in 4800 litres of air per minute. If the filter is capable of sustaining that air flow without significant pressure drop (which it must be as peak VE is very high in these engines - a sign of good engineering), then at 1500 rpm it's only drawing in a 1/3rd as much air, so the pressure drop across the filter will be (~) 1/3rd of what it was at peak torque - i.e. immaterial.

Above 4500 rpm it could be claimed that the filter creates an increased restriction. But VE is still very high right up to peak power (7k rpm). Restrictions are likely to be caused by other parts of the intake and exhaust systems (mainly ports and valves).

So if an air filter is going to make any difference, it's going to be under full throttle, high RPM conditions - where you might get a bit more power. But all the rest of the time it will make FA difference, and certainly won't affect fuel consumption either way.

[playr158]

lol wow such debate on the insurance, yes it is possible your insurance company could cry about it and a few reprocussions sure..

but at least here in the US they arn't smart enough to tell an intake from an oem spec..exhausts or all that junk..they can't even tell a 3sgte instead of a 7afe...

that and i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt if you run into someone your INS. co will look for a CAI intake VS a panel filter to drop you :/

but then again your UK and they might just be &#33;Removed&#33; nuts over there :)

either way good luck

and K&N flat panel in the stock box with removed fender well resonators will do wonders :) yet appear 100% stock

[mikeb]

lol wow such debate on the insurance, yes it is possible your insurance company could cry about it and a few reprocussions sure..

but at least here in the US they arn't smart enough to tell an intake from an oem spec..exhausts or all that junk..they can't even tell a 3sgte instead of a 7afe...

that and i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt if you run into someone your INS. co will look for a CAI intake VS a panel filter to drop you :/

but then again your UK and they might just be &#33;Removed&#33; nuts over there :)

either way good luck

and K&N flat panel in the stock box with removed fender well resonators will do wonders :) yet appear 100% stock

Mate, they are nuts over here! Some insurance companies do 'random' inspections on people's cars when they take out new policies/renew - just to check that it's not got any undeclared mods. If you make a claim, the first thing they do is send out an expert to check over your car for mods (anything at all). I've even heard of people buying brand new cars with optional extra alloy wheels, and being told (when they try to claim), that their insurance is invalid for not declaring the wheels. And to top it all off, they won't even pay out for the mods if you make a claim! :(

I've even heard of the police making notes of people's mods and contacting their insurance company to check that they are declared!

[Hrun]

Bit I do not understand is... Our car came with an air filter as standard. It still has an air filter which is a different shape.

This replacement air filter has the same effect as a non OEM oil filter or brake pads. It has negligible or no effect on the performance, handling or stopping abilities and performs the same function as the original item. So why should it be considered a declarable mod.

If I had bought the car with it on and was not mechanically minded I would assume it was standard as it is the first Celica I have owned.

Thoughts?