Run Flat Tyre T180

[Robert6920]

Also, I wonder what Toyota/Bridgestone provided in countries like Switzerland, Germany, Norway etc where people usually have two sets of tyres - summer and winter? I'm just looking at that for mine as we're off to the Alps (hopefully) this winter.... I'm zeroing in on Michelin Latitude Alpin at the moment

[Hoovie]

Just tyres or a tyre/wheel combo for the Winter set? I bought a used set of winter alloys and tyres for my HR-V for about £150 for 4 IIRC from an eBay guy which did me nicely (didn't try too much on snow, though)

[duncerduncs]

I think that article explains why there are no BSR RFTs on the US RAV4s

Hmmm...

Can anyone guess what's missing from the back of this 2009 US Rav....

[Fujisan]

Oh dear!

[Hoovie]

they may be getting inflator gunk instead of BSR RFTs? or conventional RFTs? I would be amazed if the BSR is ready to launch in US after reading the problems with the PAX

[Fujisan]

they may be getting inflator gunk instead of BSR RFTs? or conventional RFTs? I would be amazed if the BSR is ready to launch in US after reading the problems with the PAX

Now that is good question and it will be an interesting answer!

[jimmertek]

Hi

If I wanted to replace all wheels and tyres to get over this problem what should I be looking for? Will any 18" set of alloys and tyres do the job?

Can anyone explain tyre pressure sensors and why they are important?

Thanks, Jim

(proud owner of a T180)

[bothwell_buyer]

Hi

If I wanted to replace all wheels and tyres to get over this problem what should I be looking for? Will any 18" set of alloys and tyres do the job?

Can anyone explain tyre pressure sensors and why they are important?

Thanks, Jim

(proud owner of a T180)

No idea on the tyre pressure sensors, but no doubt they will feed inta the ecu/s tae giw ye a warning.

On the wheel and tyre combo, I think it was Hoovie who posted up a website where you can calculate (clacualet for Fujisans benefit) the tyre and wheel sizes. There will be a selection of after market alloys available - any decent alloy wheel agent will tell you which are ok for your car - things like offset and caliper clearance being the main issues; then whether the wheel n tyre will not rub the wheel arch can be an issue with some. You can even muck about by putting larger wheels on - say 20" with a lower profile tyre. My latest set of 18" alloys fitted with 225/40 x 18 tyres shows that a 20" wheel is well possible!

[Hoovie]

Hi

Can anyone explain tyre pressure sensors and why they are important?

Thanks, Jim

(proud owner of a T180)

No idea on the tyre pressure sensors, but no doubt they will feed inta the ecu/s tae giw ye a warning.

I think the theory is that the run flat tyres are so wonderful, you cannot tell you have a puncture as the handling does not change.

And as there is a limit both in speed and distance you can use a deflated run-flat, you need something to tell you you have a deflated tyre.

Personally, I think they are a great idea on ANY tyres - run-flat or no, but like everything that Toyota has done re Run-Flats, it is a terrible execution.

Sensors locked to wheel position and owner cannot reprogram if they like to rotate wheels around, etc. Other aftermarket TPMS systems (and maybe other makes factory systems?) let you reset tyre positions as you need to

[shcm]

Sensors locked to wheel position and owner cannot reprogram if they like to rotate wheels around, etc. Other aftermarket TPMS systems (and maybe other makes factory systems?) let you reset tyre positions as you need to

Hoovie, please don't take this the wrong way, it's not a personal attack, but based on the information and knowledge I have, then I have to disagree with that statement.

I feel an urban myth is developing around this one, possibly encouraged by some dealers feeding their customers ****. I'd like to nip it in the bud or alternatively if anybody has good solid evidence that opposes the following, I've no problem being proven wrong.

I've seen it said on here a number of times that the TPMS has to be recoded/reset after a tyre change or wheel rotation and have kept quiet because I didn't want to contradict anybody. However, has anybody on here stated clearly that they have definitely had a problem after a tyre (not complete wheel) change or rotating wheels?

The system does I believe only store DTCs if there is an abnormal condition in the system such as an out of range temperature or pressure transmission from a valve, or a valve transmission not being received. A puncture will put the warning light on, but it is normal system operation as far as the system is concerned and no DTC will be stored. I expect the light goes out when pressure is normal again.

I don't see how the Toyota system can possibly know where each valve transmitter is located. The system does have two receive antennas, one front and one rear, so there is a remote possibility it could determine whether the wheel was front or rear, but that is about all. That possibility is still very unlikely IMHO and without wanting to appear big headed, my day job involves designing radio frequency devices for automotive use, so I think it is a reasonably well justified opinion.

The two antennas are probably necessary to help improve reception as the valve transmission is very low power and the wheel wells can act very effectively at blocking the valve's transmission.

Anyway, the diagnostic procedure for identifying a faulty valve transmitter requires that air is let out of each tyre in turn in order to identify the faulty valve via the diagnostic tester.

If the system did know each valve position (i.e. which wheel it was in), surely it would just tell the diagnostic tester which wheel the faulty valve was in, rather than needing a long winded diagnostic procedure involving all wheels?

Now, if you were doing something daft like rotating wheel positions with the ignition on, then yes, maybe the system would miss one or more of its wheels (i.e. it can't hear the valve transmitting) while they were off and away from the vehicle and then flag a fault/DTC.

Likewise, if you were changing a tyre with the vehicle ignition left on, there is the possibility the system would miss one of its wheels while it was away from the vehicle.

The reason I make these two claims is that the TPMS ECU only has an ignition power feed. i.e. the ECU can only work and monitor valve transmissions with the ignition on. So, if the ignition stays off while the wheels are off the vehicle, there should never be a problem. Kirk at Bridgestone has also said on here that the problem with TPMS DTCs after a tyre change is only an issue when the ignition is left on with the wheel off the vehicle.

TPMS DTCs would have been a problem when the dealers were doing their wheel exchange programme in the early days, because obviously a new valve with the new wheel is now on the vehicle and one of the original valves is missing. In that situation, yes, you would need to re-enter the valve IDs into the system. From the factory manual, that doesn't look a particularly friendly procedure because it seems to suggest you can't just re-enter one ID, but have to redo the whole set. I suspect some Toyota dealers are still thinking in that mode despite some now having the machines to change the tyres rather than swap wheels.

It would appear that any valve ID can be registered at any ID location in the ECU, which again reinforces the argument that the ECU doesn't care where the wheel is located on the vehicle.

If I'm reading things right, it can take as long as about an hour for a DTC to be registered if the ECU doesn't hear from a valve in that time, or 12 minutes if the vehicle speed has gone above 5 mph, both after ignition on. Time between valve transmissions will decrease rapidly if there is a rapid change in tyre pressure.

With respect to other TPMS, some can determine and/or learn valve position. These will very often be able to "ping" the valve rather than just waiting passively for transmissions. There is often a LF (125kHz) coil in each wheel well (very similar to an ignition key barrel immobiliser/transponder energising coil), which is used to kick the valve into transmitting. That way the ECU has control over which valve transmits and so has a very good idea of which wheel the valve is in.

Alternatively, another way is that the ECU is told where each wheel is located when the valves are registered. It would still be difficult for such a cheap system to determine whether the wheel was still in its correct location though. You can make all sorts of claims about using received signal strength to determine wheel position, but it actually very difficult (if not impossible) to do cheaply and repeatably.

Of course, there is nothing like actually playing with a system to verify theory against practice and if I had a T180 I would have done all this by now.

Can I suggest if you are a T180 owner and a dealer tries to charge you labour for TPMS re-registering or DTC reseting when rotating wheels or changing a tyre on an existing rim, that you get him to explain in technical depth exactly why. I'm not convinced he should be if the valve hasn't been replaced and normally the valve shouldn't need to be changed. If he has had to re-code, then he's not doing the wheel/tyre work in a way that means he doesn't have to re-register or clear DTCs. In fact if he has to swap wheels, because he can't replace the tyre, that still isn't your problem or cost unless the exisiting rim and/or valve have been damaged IMHO.

Sorry for the long post. If anybody have hard evidence that contradicts my theory and you're still awake by now then please prove me wrong!

Cheers

[Fujisan]

So if read your post correctly shcm, the four wheels equiped with the TPMS valves could be sat in the boot of the car and the TPMS ECU would be perfectly happy!

[Hoovie]

Sensors locked to wheel position and owner cannot reprogram if they like to rotate wheels around, etc. Other aftermarket TPMS systems (and maybe other makes factory systems?) let you reset tyre positions as you need to

Hoovie, please don't take this the wrong way, it's not a personal attack, but based on the information and knowledge I have, then I have to disagree with that statement.

.....

Cheers

schm, I have no problems at all at being corrected by someone who knows better And I am also keen to learn more, so found your post very interesting

I did base my Toyota comment on the way I translated the various bits of information I read here.

Your reply has prompted a couple of questions though :)

I have not seen the Toyota TPMS system in action myself - in the event of a low-pressure/flat tyre situation, does it tell the driver WHICH tyre has the problem or just that there is a problem? I had presumed the former?

Assuming the former, are you saying that the Toyota TPMS automatically works out which sensor is in which wheel location without any intervention? If that is the case then that is a super system and my comment is way out.

However, from your description, it does sound like in fact it is the latter, and it does has a generic "you have a problem" type message and the driver (or TPMS system) does not know which tyre it is with the problem, then I guess in a way that doesn't matter as it should be evident when he stops to look, but I have seen aftermarket ones that give pressure and temp info on individual wheels and I would have thought the Toyota TPMS would be top-of-the-range really.

The TPMS system I have looked at most closely (on paper/internet, not in action) has internal Valve Sensors that are pre-programmed to certain positions - and I presume send some kind of ID string alongside the TP/Temp data so the reciever knows where (i.e. Which tyre) to display it. The blurb with that TMPS system also states that you can change the designations if you need to itr you have moved the wheels around for any reason.

Reason I was looking at TPMS systems and have an interest in them is to see the viability (benefit and cost) of fitting a system when I have to get a new set of tyres which will be in next few months.

[sywy]

Sensors locked to wheel position and owner cannot reprogram if they like to rotate wheels around, etc. Other aftermarket TPMS systems (and maybe other makes factory systems?) let you reset tyre positions as you need to

Hoovie, please don't take this the wrong way, it's not a personal attack, but based on the information and knowledge I have, then I have to disagree with that statement.

.....

Cheers

schm, I have no problems at all at being corrected by someone who knows better And I am also keen to learn more, so found your post very interesting

I did base my Toyota comment on the way I translated the various bits of information I read here.

Your reply has prompted a couple of questions though :)

I have not seen the Toyota TPMS system in action myself - in the event of a low-pressure/flat tyre situation, does it tell the driver WHICH tyre has the problem or just that there is a problem? I had presumed the former?

Assuming the former, are you saying that the Toyota TPMS automatically works out which sensor is in which wheel location without any intervention? If that is the case then that is a super system and my comment is way out.

However, from your description, it does sound like in fact it is the latter, and it does has a generic "you have a problem" type message and the driver (or TPMS system) does not know which tyre it is with the problem, then I guess in a way that doesn't matter as it should be evident when he stops to look, but I have seen aftermarket ones that give pressure and temp info on individual wheels and I would have thought the Toyota TPMS would be top-of-the-range really.

The TPMS system I have looked at most closely (on paper/internet, not in action) has internal Valve Sensors that are pre-programmed to certain positions - and I presume send some kind of ID string alongside the TP/Temp data so the reciever knows where (i.e. Which tyre) to display it. The blurb with that TMPS system also states that you can change the designations if you need to itr you have moved the wheels around for any reason.

Reason I was looking at TPMS systems and have an interest in them is to see the viability (benefit and cost) of fitting a system when I have to get a new set of tyres which will be in next few months.

IIRC when I had a puncture all I got was the low tyre pressure warning light. Don't think I even got a message on the screen, as I can remember wondering what that warning light meant. However, I didn't have to wait long, as you definitely know when you have a flat. It is literally like driving on a SOLID rubberised metal ring, and didn't fell at all safe :o

[shcm]

So if read your post correctly shcm, the four wheels equiped with the TPMS valves could be sat in the boot of the car and the TPMS ECU would be perfectly happy!

Fuj, I suspect that is correct however I still have a small doubt. The Toyota documentation infers that normally a DTC will be stored after about 1 hour if a valve transmission has not been heard, or after about 15 minutes if the vehicle speed has gone over 5 mph. This makes me wonder if the sensor also detects movement and decreases its time between transmissions once movement has been seen. In that case, having the wheels in the boot wouldn't fool it.

However, the documentation also says to check the spare(!!!), if low pressure is detected, so I suspect the valve doesn't detect movement. Anyway, there you go T180 owners, you have a spare. Just need to find it, that's all. :D. I expect the system may have an option to be configured to accept a spare.

Hoovie - It's a "basic" system and just puts a light on. Each valve ID is unique, but it would appear it doesn't matter which ID location the valve ID is put into in the ECU. The ID locations are just numbered ID1-4 and they don't appear to correspond to wheel positions. If it did, then yes you could have a system that indicated which tyre was the problem. If you swapped wheels around without telling the ECU, it would of course get it wrong. I can't see how changing wheel positions would matter with the RAV system.

There's a lot of things been said about the system that don't all stack up for me, but, no problem, you're not the first to do it and I bet you won't be the last.

I'm guilty of mis-information myself. If you disconnect the ECU connector the system will be disabled. Normally vehicle systems (particularly safety related) are designed to put warning lights on in that situation. I was surprised it didn't put a light on, but have said I didn't think it would. However, looking further into it, it would appear the light is in fact put on as I would expect it to be. I still think I could disable the light and the system though. ;)

I'm not claiming I have all the answers, I'd just like to understand what's really going on with the thing that fully explains all the facts.

Cheers

[bothwell_buyer]

Putting the electronic sensor systems into some sort of context, if you look at plane systems and catastrophic failures in recent years, there is evidence that a pilot does not know/is unsure/makes a wrong assumption over failure of an engine.

Now, one would assume that sensors detecting faults would pinpoint the exact nature and position of a failure on a passenger carrying plane. However, it can be questionned from the findings of a handful of crashes - and maybe not least the latest in Spain where alledgedly, mechanics switched off a sensor which was throwing up a fault.

If aviation safety sensors appear to be less than 100 % accurate then one would extrapolate that sensors on a vehicle costing a mere fraction of a plane are far less accurate - if for no other reason than cost.

What I find more interesting is the fact that we can and do manufacture tyres that wear as they always have worn; burst in the same way as they have burst for a century; and when burst, can generally not be repaired. The process to then recycle that tyre is expensive - surely the research should be to develop a tyre that doesn't burst in the first place??? Oh, wait a minute - that would reduce the volume of tyres sold by millions!!

[Hoovie]

Don't know if this is the same as fitted in UK/Euro spec vehicles, but came across this interesting website ....

Toyota TPMS Tool & Tire Pressure Monitoring Systems

[shcm]

Putting the electronic sensor systems into some sort of context ..................................

If aviation safety sensors appear to be less than 100 % accurate then one would extrapolate that sensors on a vehicle costing a mere fraction of a plane are far less accurate - if for no other reason than cost.

Come off it Bothy, with the greatest respect that's a load of old ***locks. Lets look at a couple of examples.

Typical Electronic TPMS:

http://www.freescale.com/files/sensors/doc...SFS.pdf?fsrch=1

For the car application device accuracy is +/-10kPa about +/- 1.5 psi. OK, that's only over a 0 to 70C temperature range, so it will widen a bit at temperature extremes e.g. -40C, but more than good enough in my book for a system that is primary concerned with relatively rapid pressure loss detection.

Typical foot-pumps:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/prod...foot_pumps.html

One of those mechanical gauges is 8 psi out! Your average punter is going to assume his foot-pump gauge is roughly correct, if he bothers to check tyre pressures at all.

There's nothing wrong with electronic sensing. Nothing is "100% accurate" as you put it. For an application such as this give me a silicon based device over mechanical every time.

As far as aviation goes if is also possible to find counter-examples where correct system information has been mistakenly ignored or overridden.

[bothwell_buyer]

Gosh, sorry - didn't realise that the driving tests now contain all the info to understand that. Just as well i have another 8 months before I need to be re-assessed!

[Marc D]

OK - so new to the forum - primarily as I have not previously had any reason to go searching for other peoples experiences of the run flat's !!!

Anyway - Sunday 17 August I get a puncture on a run flat as indicated by the warning system. I put some air in it as I'm out & about & passing petrol stations etc, however not long after (the same afternoon) the same warning light comes on.

I drive home (in total 12 miles or so) on the run flat (I would have to say that it was not completely flat either).

As it's a Sunday & Toyoya / Michellin have some sort of monopoly on these run flat's I'm unable to take it into a local independant / high street tyre supplier / fitter.

Monday morning I call Toyota & they advise me to drive the car to my 'local' Toyota centre that has the equipement to replace tyres etc. This being approx 8 miles from home. I advised Toyota that I wasn't comfortable driving the car & could I remove the wheel & just take the wheel down (leaving the car safely propped up). It was stressed that I would have to take the whole car !!!!

I phoned the dealer arranged to take it in & they advised me that the cost could be anything between £15 (simple repair) to 'worst case' £240 ish (replacement required).

Dropped the car off - Monday 18 August - all happy.

Shortly afterwards the same afternoon they phone me to say that the support ring was shaped like a 50p & that that would need replacing taking the total to just over £300 & that due to the timing they could not get it done that day (also with the added bonus that their specialist tyre removal / fitting machine wasn't working !!!). They arranged for a loan / demo car for me to use (Avensis 1.8 petrol) as I needed a vehicle for work (me being away for 2 days in London some 200+ miles away).

On the Tuesday late afternoon I got another call (voicemail) from the dealer to advise me that they had had to 'cut' my tyre off and that they had found the pressure sensor to be damaged as well - bill now standing at over £450 !!!!!!

Wednesday morning I called them back to advise that I wasn't happy with the situation & that it was Toyota who advised me to continue driving the car.

In total I drove the car for approx 20 miles following the warning light first coming on & as this was primarily all on B roads, generally no more than 30 / 35 miles per hour.

The dealer advised that they would not progress the work until I agreed to pay the £450+. Needless to say I did not agree & phoned Toyota customer relations instead.

The call to Toyota was on Wednesday 20 August in the morning, the guy I spoke to was sympacthetic to my concerns (especially the issue with safety) & assured me that this would be escalated & they would speak to the dealer & sort something out. I called them again Thursday for an update to be advised that this had been escalated to senior levels & was still being discussed - I called them Friday morning - same response, I called them Friday afternoon (as I had been promised calls back & not heard anythinig) - still same response.

I asked what their process was with dealing with complaints - they aim to satisfactorily respond / resolve issues within 48 hours.

It's now Tuesday 26 August (8 days later) - I still don't have my car back - I still have not had a call back from Toyota !!!!

Let me state however that I do love the T180, I love the drive, the space, the general feeling of great build quality - in the 18 months I've had the car I have not had a problem - therefore feel that it is reliable. I don't mind paying a little extra for 'safe' technology (ie run flat tyres).

However I draw the line at being ripped off for either faulty equipment or damage done to the ring / sensor by others.

Also, having worked in the customer relationship arena myself for some years, I have to also comment on the overall extremly poor service I'm currently experiencing from Toyota.

Enough of the ranting now - I'm off to call Toyota again (no doubt to be told that it's being discussed & I'll get a call back shortly) - last chance today before it's taken further (either within Toyota or to external trading standards !!!!).

[Hoovie]

Hi Marc,

Welcome to the Forum :)

IMO, it sounds like the Dealer is wanting you to pay for their incompetence :censor:

Post back what you get told by Toyota and Illegitimi Non Carborundum

[Marc D]

Thanks Hoovie,

The call I've just had with Toyota went something like :

Me - Hi I'm chasing progress on case xxxxxx, still not heard anything after a number of calls last week as well as promises that my 'case manager' would call me back.

Them - OK, this is still being discussed, but I'll ensure that the case manager does call you with progress update.

Me - Not happy, been without car for over a week now, as a suggestion while yourselves & the dealer continue 'discussions', can you get a wheel / tyre back onto my car so I can at least use it. You can then continue 'discussions' for as long as needed then.

Them - Hmmm, that's a good point, I'll put this to the case manager & see what they say.

Needless to say I am not holding my breath !!!!

Maybe I need to get the UN involved - the recent Russia / Georgia conflict was resolved quicker than my RAV4 problem !!!!!

Cheers & will continue to provide updates.

Marc.

[Hoovie]

Have you still got their Avensis? If so, keep hold of it until everything sorted!!!!

[chatman]

Marc D I'm confused by the Toyota comment on the support ring being 50p shaped. surely these things are designed to support the vehicle and provide safety. if not then, they a complete waste of time and spending £450 on a new tyre is ridiculously stupid and blatant daylight robbery :o :o

So each time T180 owners get a flat tyre, the support ring will almost defiantly be knackered...I think the garage is too blame, and as for cutting of your tyre...no way :eek: ....they should not do that and I'm sure Bridgestone guy on here will say so as well...I'm sure CFC1 is a tyre mechanic and may say so also... complete incompetence all at your expense....

You can understand peoples dislike for the tyres on these vehicles....

[sywy]

Hi Marc, wlecome to the forums, and sorry to hear of your woes.

Take it to trading standards anyway!! If you look back thru the forum, they have a case open with another forum member, and the more people that complain, the better.

My theory is that due to the incompetence of the garage, they have damaged your support ring, and your pressure sensor. After all, your sensor was working when you took the car to them, and I'd have assumed you would have felt if the ring was 50p shaped. When you actually go back, ask to see all the parts.

Good luck!!

[Hoovie]

I reckon you should name and shame them!!

after all, if people have a good experience of a garage, they don't hesitate to name them - and the garage is keen to be named. When the boot is on the other foot, the same should apply!

Marc, here is an extract from http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=84225

"Hi Guys

Have pursued the issues of the run flat tyres on the T180 with Consumer Direct, who have in turn brought in the Trading Standards Office.

The "legal eagle" Clare Presland, is meeting with Trading Standard Officers tomorrow and has asked me to get in touch, through the forum and ask that other T180 owners contact her with regard to the run flat tyre scenario, thus enabling her to pass on all issues with the Trading Standards Officers. Her number is 01438 737460, alternatively, you can email her via eecd@consumerdirect-eastofengland.gov.uk"

You should absolutely do so!!