Is Avensis A Bad Choice?

[Marex]

I am about to buy a brand new Avensis Saloon 1.8 VVTi with manual transmission. First car ever I can afford to buy brand new. Then I started to read the topics in this forum.

Bad vvti -engines? After a while engine uses one litre oil and more for every 1000 km.

Transmission bad? Bearings are of low quality and many transmissions are failing long before 100.000 km.

Clutch? Some are failing after as low as 30.000 km.

Headlights? Plastic melting?

Various minor other problems.

We drive only about 10.000 km per year. The warranty is 3 years/100.000 km, whatever comes first. I will probably have no warranty left when these problems may strike.

I like the car. My wife loves it. Good looking. Good to drive. Very little noise (205/55/16 Nokian soft winter tyres) Toyota has a reputation for cars that last and have few problems. Is this no longer true?

Anyway. Can't buy a car from the number one manufacturer of engine- and transmission failure.

Should I cancel the deal? It seems to me that Toyota is not what it used to be.

Have I got it all wrong? Are things better than they seem to be?

Mr. Marex

[Bosnjo]

All things you have mentioned were solved in production before the end of 2004. I have Avensis Saloon 1.8 VVTi manual, from January 2005.

When somebody looks at this forum things can look scary, but they are not. If you have time compare it with other top models from known manufaturers and you'll see that Toyota is the best.

I've owned 7 new cars till now (Renault, Fiat, VW). In all of them I had some problems. You just have to be persistent with your dealer and make them solve it. Compared with other new cars I owned, Avensis (untill now) has less problems and they were all solved but one minor (steering clicking). You can see my posts "Steering Clicking" and "Avensis after 14 months", where I describe my experience with the car. Steering clicking is not the problem at all, just little bit annoying when parking the car. It's little noise comming from steering wheel due airbag spiral cable but nothing is broken nor will be.

Other important thing is that for the money you pay you get the car that easily competes with other cars in the same class that are much more expensive and less secure (safety and quality).

I didn't regret.

And, as you might have noticed, we have one sick guy in this forum changing constantly his register and user name trying to convince everyone that Toyota is just a crap. Even his first user name was "Avensiscrap". Just don't listen to him. If he hasn't been paid by somebody to bother Toyota owners then he better get back to hospital he fled from.

Warm welcome to you to Toyota Owners Club and hope you get that beauty soon.

[Norbreck21a]

I'd have to agree with everything that Bosnjo said.

Mine is a March 2004 1.8VVTi T3-X and I love it. Not problems whatsoever.

Buy it and love it.

Cheers

Andrew

[halladdie]

Hi Bosnjo

You say that all the problems were solved in production before the end of 2004. I have a Avensis Saloon 1.8 VVTi manual purchased new in Sep 04. Does this mean I need to have a chat with Toyota about these problems? Although it was purchased in Sep the car may have been built a few months before. 18months later and 16,000 miles I have needed to place a very small amount of oil in it. This is my second Avensis and I have to say that it's a lot better than a lot of the crap out there. A friend of mine had a Ford Mondeo which had done 25,000miles and he jumped into my mark 1 Avensis with 35,000miles and said that my car felt like new and that his Ford was falling to bits. His Ford was a company car which he got rid of a year ago. He now has a new Avensis D4D and loves it! For a year I had a Lexus IS200. Great car but too small if you have to boys who like playing football. Comparing the Lexus to my new Avensis in the build quality stakes there's not a lot in it. Near my Toyota dealer is a VW dealership. I can tell you all now that the mechanics there do not purchase VW for their cars but Avensis.

Anyway, my Avensis is great and to the ****** who keeps changing his username, I guess he thinks Ford, Vauxhall, all the French rubbish and the German crap is better. You need to talk to some mechanics who work on these cars, they will open your eyes and really tell you the truth.

Bosnjo, my car, chat with Toyota? Is there a number on the car which tells me the production run? Wait to hear.

Many thanks.

[Stephen Kowalzcuk]

Er De ved noe sjanse silverav1, avensiscrap, eller ombudsman messing om igjen, det blir kjedelig om De er. Om ikke, trist og velkommen til den vidunderlig, og 99% pålitelig verden av Toyota. De ikke ser tilbake.

Anyway. Can't buy a car from the number one manufacturer of engine- and transmission failure.

Hmmm......Not sure where you got that information from but its blatantly false. There are other contributors on here from Norway who have no problems at all with their cars.

What Avensis designation are you going to get, Sol or Sol Business?

[Chris Dance]

My Avensis T4 is a 53 plate. I am a low mileage user but when I do use the car it is usually long journeys. I have had front fog and headlights changed due to condensation. The dealer was great; no hesitation in carrying out the work on warranty. The car is a bit noisier on rough road surfaces than other cars I have owned. Other than that I think it is the best most economical car I have owned.

[Bosnjo]

Does this mean I need to have a chat with Toyota about these problems?

I got mine in January 2005, and on the receipt it says that car was made in November 2004.

I've spent lot of time reading this site:

Toyota Publications

There are some changes explained there and situations when parts should be changed due to failures.

In the site choose:

Avensis

T25

FMC 03/2003

Any

Any

It will give you a lot of documents. I've seen them all, try to do the same.

I'd like to know what problems your car has.

And yes, you have to be persistant with your dealer. Make them check Toyota Database for known issues. If you're not satisfied insist to talk with cheif engineer (not chief of garage). Here, every Toyota dealer has the person who is "Relations with clients". In the reception there is one paper hanging on the wall with her photo, phone number and e-mail, saying not to hasitate to call if there was any problem or failure to satisfaction in garage. I've done it once. She took my phone number and called me one hour later and put me through the chief engineer. He told me to come back to the dealer. I went there and there he was, waiting for me. He took the note of my complain and the next day kept my car and took care of it himself.

So, I understood that Chief Engineer is the person to solve the problems if garage fails to do so. Great person, and he knows what he was talking about.

About oil consumption, it's too early to call it problem. But, go to dealer and make complain. Let them take the car in to do check-up and MAKE SURE they give you the paper when you leave the car there, saying "Engine check due oil consummption" or something like that. I'm talking about paper that they give when you go for periodical service, for example. It's important to keep that paper because some day after warranty and many miles you can go back there if it gets worse with oil cumsumption and make complain saying that problem showed up during warranty and they did nothing.

Be carefull, many times they take the car in when on warranty and give you no paper. So, when you come back few years later there is no document confirming you have done complain already.

[Marex]

Er De ved noe sjanse silverav1, avensiscrap, eller ombudsman messing om igjen, det blir kjedelig om De er. Om ikke, trist og velkommen til den vidunderlig, og 99% pålitelig verden av Toyota. De ikke ser tilbake.

Nei, jeg er ikke brukeren Avensiscrap

No, I am not the user Avensiscrap

What Avensis designation are you going to get, Sol or Sol Business?

Not sure, but I think it is called Sol Business i Norway. (the one that have more of what I need as standard equipment)

Mr. Marex

[CircularSaw]

Your question shouldn't be "is it a bad choice..". It should be "is it the best choice...".

I have a new style Avensis bought in 2004 and let me underline the good and bad points about this car.

Good:

Safety - The 8 airbags give you great reassurance and is one of the safest cars on the road. Though hopefully you'll never be in a position to find out just how safe the car is. Though it's nice to know it's there when you need it.

Comfort - It's a very comfortable, long-range cruiser.

Conveniance - You get quite a lot for your money, price-wise.

Bad:

Driving - It's certainly not a drivers car. The electric power steering removes any feel from the steering wheel, coupled with the high door sills...you feel very cocooned and out of touch with the road. If you enjoy twisty mountain roads, forget this car.

Gearbox - Gear changes are spongey and vague...

Overhyped - It's not as bullet-proof as people like to make out. There have been problems.

Expensive replacement parts - Toyota are very expensive. The plastic surround for a wing mirror (a tiny piece of plastic) cost - £194. Extortionate.

Is the Avensis the best choice? I'm afraid not. If I had a choice today I would not hesitate buying the new Passat. I saw one whilst waiting for my Avensis being serviced. The plastics are of a higher quality and build quality overall feels very Germanic and perfectionist. You also have to factor in the Passat will depreciate less over time then the Avensis. The gearbox is typical excellent Volkswagen who everyone knows make some of the best in the world. Very direct, easy and pleasurable gear changes. Though saying that, the last time my Avensis went in for a major job, I was given a basic Polo (had wind down windows) and even that had better gear changes than my Avensis. Excellent Volkswagen gearboxes....maybe Toyota should make a trip to Germany to learn how to make them.

Given the choice I would buy the Passat without thinking too much about it. You must be absolutely mad not too. You are getting a newer model, German efficiency and it'll be worth more come selling time. Makes sense.

[Bosnjo]

Given the choice I would buy the Passat without thinking too much about it. You must be absolutely mad not too. You are getting a newer model, German efficiency and it'll be worth more come selling time. Makes sense.

I have to agree, BUT:

There is no Passat 1.8 Petrol. There is 1.6 and 2.0

1.6 is way to weak for that kind of car, 2.0 has high fuel consumption.

So it takes us to diesel.

How much you're going to pay for 2.0 petrol? 6.500€ in final price more then for Avensis. Passat 1.6 petrol is 4.000€ more then 1.8 Avensis petrol in final price.

Then, if you go to diesel, Passat 1.9 TDI is 4.300€ more then Avensis 1.8 petrol and you get extremely weak engine (105 HP). Go for 2.0 TDI? Ok, then 10.000€ more.

Even if there was 1.8 petrol Passat it would still be some 4.000€ more then Avensis 1.8 petrol. I guess that's what makes people decide for Avensis.

I agree about bilding quality, but it's not that different as you describe. Trust me, I owned 6 VW cars (one was Passat) and wouldn't say it's that much better then Avensis.

Just one more detail. German car industry has lot of troubles now and VW as well. They have decided in the middle of 2004 to cut production costs on all of their vehicles except Pheaton . As a result you have much cheaper materials used in engines and cockpit. Pheaton doesn't sell, they can't even cover the investment.

All of those reasons made me go for Avensis and I would go again. I would only think twice if there was Passat 1.8 petrol with the price same as Avensis

High door seals? I'm tall, 1.9m, for me it's just fine, the same as previous VW (not all of us are little).

Gearbox? Mine is just fine, wouldn't change for VW one that I know so well.

Expensive parts? That one is very funny, try to change mirror surrounding on Passat, there is no need to say more.

Bullet-proof? There are many companies installing the armor on any kind of vehicles. I don't need it, people love me so nothing to fear.

[JAHill]

Was about to say that I've seen the repair bill for a Passat wing... not cheap at all.

The steering on the diesel is fine. Plenty of feel and it drives really well. The handling is spot on too. Very predictable around corners and at speed. My gearbox is spot on too.

If it wasn't, I'd soon be winging about it. It comes to something when the only gripes I have about a car is the standing water on the roof dripping on me when I get in and the lack of an mp3 option - soon to be remedied.

I looked at the Passat. Made an appointment at a dealership to test drive, they never got back to me after three phone calls... They can keep their cars!

[Marex]

I could have paid 10% more for a Passat that have about the same equipment. The engine then has 115HP, the Avensis 129 HP.

Then there is this fact that my wife likes the look of the Avensis much better.

Pay more for less?

Mr. Marex

[Stephen Kowalzcuk]

Is the Avensis the best choice? I'm afraid not. If I had a choice today I would not hesitate buying the new Passat. I saw one whilst waiting for my Avensis being serviced. The plastics are of a higher quality and build quality overall feels very Germanic and perfectionist. You also have to factor in the Passat will depreciate less over time then the Avensis. The gearbox is typical excellent Volkswagen who everyone knows make some of the best in the world. Very direct, easy and pleasurable gear changes. Though saying that, the last time my Avensis went in for a major job, I was given a basic Polo (had wind down windows) and even that had better gear changes than my Avensis. Excellent Volkswagen gearboxes....maybe Toyota should make a trip to Germany to learn how to make them

Since when have VW become renowned for their gearboxes. Never, thats when. If you really had driven an old VW Polo...(and no dealer would have loaned you one anyway) you would know that they are baulky, rubbery and vague.

What a load of bull**** you have just come out with. Obviously you havent got a Toyota, had no long history of owning a Toyota, just another incredibly annoying little whinging dweeb who harps on about !Removed! VW's.

The only good car VW ever made was the Mk1/2 Golf and that was only worth getting in GTi form and even that was a noisy tacky little thing. German efficiency?.... that went out with the Ark matey.

Just remember in the toughest places in the world Africa, Arctic, Australia, Middle East, in the most demanding conditions they dont drive around in VW Toureg's, BMW X5's or Range Rovers, when they want reliability and durability its Toyota or Nissan every time. Nuff said!

So why dont you naff off to the VW forums and firmly insert your tongue between their welcoming cheeks.

For some unknown reason, people like you like to spend your time not being helpful, but just enjoying running Toyotas down, the tedious comparisons with VW are just boring now, so go flog your sales pitch elsewhere.

ITS SIMPLE, IF YOU DONT LIKE TOYOTA, CHANGE IT FOR A VW, RENAULT, FORD OR WHATEVER ELSE YOUR LITTLE HEART DESIRES AND STOP BEING SUCH A BABY

[IanJ]

I think the guy talked a lot of sense.

He says he has a 2004 Avensis in his post and I admit I have similar feelings about my 2006 model.

I am getting used to the electro power steering, it suits the car, it's obviously not designed as a sporty vehicle. But I think Toyota do a decent trade off with semi-hard suspension giving it good turn-in and handling.

As regards the Passat / Avensis choice I have no real experience of the Passat. Although it looks classy and I have colleagues who owned previous models who were very impressed and intend to renew.

My decision to buy Toyota was purely financial.

[Andy40]

Your question shouldn't be "is it a bad choice..". It should be "is it the best choice...".

I have a new style Avensis bought in 2004 and let me underline the good and bad points about this car.

Good:

Safety - The 8 airbags give you great reassurance and is one of the safest cars on the road. Though hopefully you'll never be in a position to find out just how safe the car is. Though it's nice to know it's there when you need it.

Comfort - It's a very comfortable, long-range cruiser.

Conveniance - You get quite a lot for your money, price-wise.

Bad:

Driving - It's certainly not a drivers car. The electric power steering removes any feel from the steering wheel, coupled with the high door sills...you feel very cocooned and out of touch with the road. If you enjoy twisty mountain roads, forget this car.

Gearbox - Gear changes are spongey and vague...

Overhyped - It's not as bullet-proof as people like to make out. There have been problems.

Expensive replacement parts - Toyota are very expensive. The plastic surround for a wing mirror (a tiny piece of plastic) cost - £194. Extortionate.

Is the Avensis the best choice? I'm afraid not. If I had a choice today I would not hesitate buying the new Passat. I saw one whilst waiting for my Avensis being serviced. The plastics are of a higher quality and build quality overall feels very Germanic and perfectionist. You also have to factor in the Passat will depreciate less over time then the Avensis. The gearbox is typical excellent Volkswagen who everyone knows make some of the best in the world. Very direct, easy and pleasurable gear changes. Though saying that, the last time my Avensis went in for a major job, I was given a basic Polo (had wind down windows) and even that had better gear changes than my Avensis. Excellent Volkswagen gearboxes....maybe Toyota should make a trip to Germany to learn how to make them.

Given the choice I would buy the Passat without thinking too much about it. You must be absolutely mad not too. You are getting a newer model, German efficiency and it'll be worth more come selling time. Makes sense.

Just a thought, are you by any chance a VW salesman whiling away the empty hours, because it sure sounds like it.

[Avensis wagon]

Avensis 2.0 litre sol (= approx. T3 X) wagon, bought new in 2005. Location Finland.

Great car, no problems bar replacement (under warranty) of the inner workings or a wing mirror due to inadequate heating.

Drives well in all conditions, good traction throughout winter (Tyres = Nokian 4).

VCS, traction control and ABS also perform excellently, most noticeably in winter.

Gear action is fine.

Bought the 2.0 litre in part to get hydraulic power steering... not so keen on the electronic unless town driving would be the main use.

The Avensis has relatively low insurance due to the design allowing cheap replacement of many parts.

The build quality is undeniably ahead of most in this class.

Recommended tyre pressure of 2.2 bar is not enough for good directional stability (the car wanders). My dealership uses 2.5 on my winter tyres -- as recommended in tests done in collaboration with Nokian Tyres. This coupled with hydraulic PAS makes for a car that sits nicely on the road.

The Avensis is the most sold in it's class here -- and the Corolla in its class. Tells you something since people in this climate value reliability above all else.

More than wished for road noise from tyres particularly on rough asphalt at higher speeds -- partly evident because the car is so quiet in all other respects. The Bridgestone Turanza summer tyres perform well, but there are quieter and I'll be assessing this when replacing.

If you want a similarly reliable car that is rather cheaper but has slightly less good build quality, the Nissan Primera may be worth looking at. It's also very quiet. Mazda 6 too noisy and choppy all round -- good for driving but poor for the rest of the family. Mondeo is old and they rust. The French stuff has cosy suspension but the seem to have problems functiong here, electrical faults common among many others.

Anyway, in summary very satisfied. Here, the Avensis is a car to aspire to, not some second choice. Bearing in mind there's no such thing as perfection, I believe it would be hard to fault your choice. In my view there was only ever one choice in this size class and price category, and I'm very satisfied.

Oh, I had rub strips fitted along the doors. I can give you the part numbers for Norway if required.

Happy driving!

[JAHill]

I did like the look of the Passat. But it really was "more money for less" - Standard 1.9TDi was 16500, my Avensis 2.0 D4D was 13000! ;) And the Avensis retains (according to WhatCar) value at 52% over three years the Passat? 51%. Plus you have more value to lose on the Passat too.

Plus the Avensis came as a hatch, so I didn't have to carefully post the pushchair into a saloon boot and it was a narrow fit on the Passat too. The dealer wasn't very chuffed when I asked to try fitting the nipper's pushchair into the car at the dealership's boot.

Citroen C5 was large. Really good boot but just felt like I was driving a blamanche around. The Mazzy 6 was boy racer heaven, but the trim was naff and the internal door handle came off when I closed the door. Not good - and that was the top of the range model. The Primera was very well specced but I couldn't decide on the shape. Yes, it has got a rear view camera... nice touch... but when you try to look out of the back window, you realise why! Finally, the Mondeo... It was, well, a car. It drove... okay. It handled... okay. It looked... okay. You get the picture? The Avensis handled well and the had good feedback through the wheel. It accelerated better than the others and the safety was second to none. Lots of room in the back. Looked nice. Lesley liked it and I liked it. Job's a goodun.

[CircularSaw]

So I don't own an Avensis do I? So how would I know so much about it? There are two shopping hooks one on each side at the back, right (hatchback)...there's a very annoying seat-belt alarm which sounds like "ding....ding....ding...", right? Still don't believe me?

Well...the Polo was a courtesy car when I had it fixed after an accident at the bodyshop. I've had two previous Volkswagens before my Avensis. A Passat and Sharan. Both had excellent gearboxes...the Passat was going on 100k miles and the gearchanges were almost like new (except for reverse which by then the synchromesh was wearing out). The Sharan was far better than any other MPV I've ever driven...felt just like a car and not like a van. Based on the Galaxy but the only one which had a 6 speed gearbox...again, top-of-the-class Volkswagen gearboxes.

Volkswagen know how to make cars....they just made the Bugatti Veyron. Fastest car in the world (253 MPH), W16 engine (2 V8s stuck together)...and 8 million pounds worth of car. So they don't know how to make cars?

The Passat in What Car that says depreciates 52 per cent over 3 years is the old model. How can they guess that considering the new model has been out a few months? But saying that, don;t you think that the old model which will depreciate only 1 per cent less then the new model Avensis...what does that tell you? B)

The Avensis is a good car....but not in the same league as a Volkswagen in the same way Lexus will never be in the same league as a Merc or BMW. Face it...like it or loathe it, Germans make the best everyday cars.

My opinion...and I'm entitled to it.

[JAHill]

Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

It's just that I don't have the spongey and vague gear changes and unresponsive steering and handling and the parts for the VW are just as, if not more expensive than the Toyota. The Avensis is safe, nine bags (one of those the knee bag. Obviously not needed on the Passat because it doesn't have a key. )

It's my opinion that the VW is a nice car... It was that or the Avensis for me. It's just overpriced and at the end of the day, if you're that concerned about badges, then face it, a VW is not "all that". It is "a car for the people". I could not see the point in £3500 extra for alloys and a Badge and less mpg and bhp. I have stuff to stash in the boot too. If you just want it to stick your golf clubs in then great, but when you have a ton of junk you have to drag around with you, a hatch is the way to go -or an estate- and VW should get the hatch variant of the new Passat out as soon as, as they *will* be losing sales over just that.

You state that the Avensis has had problems, but so has the Passat and that is also supposed to be "bulletproof". All cars will have problems. Just because it's German doesn't make it reliable. Just as being Japanese doesn't make a car reliable. A client of mine has a top of the range 5 Series that has been into see the mechanics FIVE TIMES with the autobox as it keeps failing - badly. In fact, the car was changed once and the new one has the same fault! That's German and allegedly a "premium" Badge and that is one hell of a problem. However, his 3 Series Estate he had previously ran and ran without fault.

BTW: I'm not digging at you, I'm merely explaining the reasons for my choice so the OP can see what made me decide on the Avensis. His reasons for buying what he buys will probably be different to mine. It's important that he knows not only the good but also the bad. But you mentioned the gears and the steering as bad, yet I don't have that problem.

I think I've extoled the good points enough.

Bad points (for me) would be: (Consider also, that I have what is essentially the T2, D4D 2.0L)

1. Getting wet from standing water when you open a door.

2. A bit of turbo lag when cold! (Not much to do with the make though, that's just turbos in general)

3. Some of the internal plastics feels a bit cheap (round the handbrake - a gaiter would have been nice)

4. Road noise, but I think as has been said before, this is only noticable because the car is so quite in every other aspect.

Other than that, I can't think of any problems *I* have had.

Problems mentioned (that I can remember) include:

1. Colour fading on light coloured models... I though I had got that but I looked yesterday and it is fine. Just better light!

2. Disintergrating flywheel at 80K on the D4D... Not sure if this is the current model. This is the most serious fault I have seen mentioned here and is a bit disconcerting if it hasn't been fixed in later models (mines a 55 - so fingers crossed)

3. The earlier VVTI petrols (00-02 I think) had a chance of "losing" oil. I've been told this has been fixed in later models.

I don't recall reading any complaints over electrics.

What we need is an Avensis FAQ with all this "fault" stuff really.

Cheers,

Jim

[Cheesy]

Just to add fuel to the fire….

Cars are a matter of taste! Rather than believe the isolated views of individuals, my decision to buy an Avensis was based on independent research.

As this seems to have become a Passat vs Avensis thread, I’ll stick to those two only:

What Car

Their “Top Five” family cars:

Passat (new model) at number 1

Avensis at number 2

Car reliability index

Compiled by Warranty Direct and based on warranty claims, the lower the score, the better:

Avensis Total 56

Passat Total 85

Top Gear Survey

Based on feedback from a huge survey, covering reliability, dealer service, build quality, rattles & squeaks, driving etc etc. Car models rated 1 (best) – 159 (worse):

Avensis (03-) 23

Passat 82

Car makes rated 1 (best) – 36 (worse):

Toyota 5

VW 21

Safety

EuroNCAP scores for front/side:

Avensis 88% / 100%

Passat (new model) 88% / 100%

The whole German vs Japanese thing is not helpful – it just brings out entrenched loyalties.

My advice to the guy who kicked off this thread – use the internet, look at independent opinions & surveys, and drive them all. Then pick the one you like, no matter what anyone else thinks. Just don’t then try to convince the rest of the world that you were right and they were wrong.

[Bosnjo]

My advice to the guy who kicked off this thread

You're right... Let's just all give up and go and buy Rolls Royce...

[JAHill]

Cars are a matter of taste! Rather than believe the isolated views of individuals, my decision to buy an Avensis was based on independent research.

Pretty much what I did to narrow down the list. In fact, those figures you quoted all look very familiar! ;)

Plus the What Car reliabilty survey that put Toyota at 3... I think it went Honda, Mazda, Toyota, Lexus, Nissan... Or something like that.

I couldn't justify the cost of an Accord though... Or rather, Lesley wouldn't let me justify the cost of the Accord! ;)

[Marex]

The contract will be signed tomorrow. Then I will be the proud owner of a brand new Avensis 1.8 SOL Business. The car had most of what I needed as standard equipment. I ordered alarm, cruise control and 16" alloy wheels. 17"? It looks better. Absolutely.

Someone said he did not like the not so big side windows. I like them a lot. The saloon looks real good with these side windows. The estate could perhaps have them bigger.

Smaller windows mean more steel and safety. The result of the side collision test is the best there is.

Electric power steering? Didn't know it was electric. The steering feels very good. The gearbox? Some minor problems with shifting but then I got used to it. Not bad at all. Shifting can't be other than very good or excellent for any new car in the last 10 years. Can it?

Oh, I had rub strips fitted along the doors. I can give you the part numbers for Norway if required.

Part numbers would be nice. There is always some idiot in the parking lot that sooner rather than later will be not so careful as he ought to be. The car look better without the strips though.

Marex

By the way: This car cost about £26522 inc. vat. £12793,21 is sales tax.

As a result Norway has the oldest cars in Europe. Average car age is 9 years. Cars passes away in average when over 18 years. And those inside the car? There is a reason why a new car with nine airbags is a great choice despite the price: I can't afford to get killed in traffic.

[ulro]

Marex

Good luck with your avensis. With the amount of sales tax you are paying, I am convinced you made the right choice. We too have quite an old car fleet here in Sweden and even 15 - 20 year old Toyotas are still running, allthough most of the body work is gone due to rust, they still have all the electrics working such as power windows, central locking etc. Now you do not see that on 20 years old german crap such as VW & Audi

[Chris Dance]

I was out in my Avensis T4 today and it was great. I hope you enjoy driving your new car as much as I do driving mine. That is an awful lot of tax. Still you do not pay the high income tax in Norway that we pay in UK.