E85 (ethanol) In The Aygo/c1/107

[MagnusLundstedt]

Hello

I am planning to buy an Citroen C1. While I would have prefered the Aygo, Toyota refuses to sell the Aygo here in sweden, so a C1 will do. However I am intrested in driving my C1 on 100% E85, has anyone successfully tried 100% E85 or any other mixture of E85 and gasoline? Since it has fuel injection it should take atleast 30-70% E85 without any problems from what I have heard, since the electronics automatically adjusts the amount of fuel injected into the engine for optimal burn. Some cars can go 100% E85 without any modifications, would be nice if the C1/aygo/107 can do that without bad/uncomplete combustion etc.

Now why do E85? Well for once its more environmentally friendly since you only release 1.3*15% = 19.5% of fosilized CO2 compared to running the car on gasoline.

But the major reason is that E85 is cheaper.. :) 1 liter of E85 cost 7.83 crowns and ordinary gasoline cost 12.29 crowns (0.83€ vs 1,30€). If you include that an engine that runs on 100% E85 instead of gasoline burns around 1.3 times amount the fuel the price comparision is: 10.2 crowns vs 12.29 crowns per liter. So if you run on E85 instead of gasoline you save 20.5% of fuel cost, which for me amounts to about 1000 crowns (106€) in one year.

[tommygun]

[aygo vvti]

i that on E85 alone the engine will

[Elgar]

Hello

I am planning to buy an Citroen C1. While I would have prefered the Aygo, Toyota refuses to sell the Aygo here in sweden, so a C1 will do. However I am intrested in driving my C1 on 100% E85, has anyone successfully tried 100% E85 or any other mixture of E85 and gasoline? Since it has fuel injection it should take atleast 30-70% E85 without any problems from what I have heard, since the electronics automatically adjusts the amount of fuel injected into the engine for optimal burn. Some cars can go 100% E85 without any modifications, would be nice if the C1/aygo/107 can do that without bad/uncomplete combustion etc.

Now why do E85? Well for once its more environmentally friendly since you only release 1.3*15% = 19.5% of fosilized CO2 compared to running the car on gasoline.

But the major reason is that E85 is cheaper.. :) 1 liter of E85 cost 7.83 crowns and ordinary gasoline cost 12.29 crowns (0.83€ vs 1,30€). If you include that an engine that runs on 100% E85 instead of gasoline burns around 1.3 times amount the fuel the price comparision is: 10.2 crowns vs 12.29 crowns per liter. So if you run on E85 instead of gasoline you save 20.5% of fuel cost, which for me amounts to about 1000 crowns (106€) in one year.

Hi.

I just talked to a Toyota dealer in Gothenburg.

He said that the Aygo probably will be for sale in may.

[MagnusLundstedt]

No, the engine will not blow up on 100% E85, what might happen is that it works sub optimal with unclean burn of fuel and air (lots of HC in exhaust gasses), which is not desireable. Or it can work good, it all depends on the control software for fuel injectors / the catalysator in the car and avaliable fuel pressure - how much more fuel it is allowed to/can inject into the engine before some preset ceiling is reached. Sometimes you also need to increase fuel pressure in the fuel-pipe to be able to drive good on 100% E85. This can be done with a pressure regulator on the fuel return pipe. This is called "convert the car to run on 100% E85", something that is quite common in brazil.

[Djoezz]

Hello

I am planning to buy an Citroen C1. While I would have prefered the Aygo, Toyota refuses to sell the Aygo here in sweden, so a C1 will do. However I am intrested in driving my C1 on 100% E85, has anyone successfully tried 100% E85 or any other mixture of E85 and gasoline? Since it has fuel injection it should take atleast 30-70% E85 without any problems from what I have heard, since the electronics automatically adjusts the amount of fuel injected into the engine for optimal burn. Some cars can go 100% E85 without any modifications, would be nice if the C1/aygo/107 can do that without bad/uncomplete combustion etc.

Now why do E85? Well for once its more environmentally friendly since you only release 1.3*15% = 19.5% of fosilized CO2 compared to running the car on gasoline.

But the major reason is that E85 is cheaper.. :) 1 liter of E85 cost 7.83 crowns and ordinary gasoline cost 12.29 crowns (0.83€ vs 1,30€). If you include that an engine that runs on 100% E85 instead of gasoline burns around 1.3 times amount the fuel the price comparision is: 10.2 crowns vs 12.29 crowns per liter. So if you run on E85 instead of gasoline you save 20.5% of fuel cost, which for me amounts to about 1000 crowns (106€) in one year.

Just read this and stick to the instructions. The difference in both cost and pollution is minimal with Aygo which in itself is a lean,mean and clean car.

Dangerous and illegal to fuel up petrol powered cars with E85.

BIL Sweden is dissuading owners of conventional petrol powered cars to fuel up with E85. It is dangerous, illegal and it can seriously damage the car. Using E85 in specially designed ethanol powered cars is however safe, legal and environmentally more friendly!

Car manufacturers can now offer car models especially designed for E85, which is mainly ethanol. These cars are flexible and they can adjust automatically to any mix of ethanol and petrol. From 100 per cent petrol in the tank to a full tank of E85. The mix is constantly monitored and a computer is adjusting ignition and fuel injection for optimal exhaust emission control, fuel economy and performance.

Car models that can be powered by E85 are: Ford Focus FFV, Ford Focus C-Max FFV, US Ford Taurus FFV, SAAB 9-5 Bio Power and Volvo S40 FFV/ V50 FFV.

IF YOU DRIVE ANY OTHER CAR MODEL THAN THOSE MENTIONED ABOVE THE CAR

MANUFACTURERS ADVISE YOU AGAINST FUELLING UP AT ANY OF THE NEW E85 PUMPS.

Here are a few reasons why you should not use E85 in any other car than those designed for it:

- E85 will dissolve or break down material in the fuel system of conventional petrol powered cars. Materials like aluminium, lead-tin alloy

- steel plates common in ordinary petrol tanks, rubber, polyuretan, gaskets made from cork and some plastic material. These materials will dissolve in the fuel and this will give rise to engine disturbances, damages, leakage/fire hazard and the need for replacing parts and repair work. There is a lot of oxygen in the E85 fuel, which can make the engine difficult to start and it can also damage the engine severely because of the low mix of petrol. Exhaust emissions, particularly so called aldehydes, will increase significantly using an E85/petrol mix, especially during wintertime but also when starting the engine and when

idling.

The fire hazards when using E85 are different from those using pure petrol, but handling E85 can be done safely if certain criteria are met like choice of material, earthing etc.

Car manufacturers have been taking the special properties of E85 into consideration when putting fuel flexible cars into series production.

It is illegal to power a car with E85 if the manufacturer recommends only petrol. Warranties will cease to be valid and the manufacturer is no longer obliged to do anything about any exhaust emission problems that might arise.

To avoid any risk of confusion when fuelling up at the filling station the Government wants to introduce an obligation to inform and to mark up the pumps. This is to avoid the risk that customers, especially those who fuel up with petrol, might fuel up with the wrong kind of fuel, ethanol, and also to avoid the risk of damaging the engine of the car.

BIL Sweden thinks that such marking of pumps does not have to wait for further legislation. The station that provides ethanol fuel E85 should immediately make sure the pump has got an obvious sign informing about the fuel and that it is meant for fuel flexible cars designed especially for it. On a warning sign it can say:

”Using ethanol fuel in conventional petrol engine cars is prohibited according to the law (SFS 2001:1080) and might damage the engine.”

There is also information about petrol powered cars being converted to be able to fuel up with E85. The car industry strictly warns against this. After market conversions to E85 might be technically possible but not recommended. This is because of the need to change material and components, the high costs and the need for vigorous re-calibrations of the engine, the need for making sure the exhaust emissions are not getting higher etc. These are the same reasons behind the difficulties specified above concerning using own mixes

of petrol and ethanol.

Furthermore we would like to add that the Government on its webpage (in the Ministry of Sustainable Development Q&A section) answers the question ”Why is there a driving ban on cars that have been converted to ethanol fuel?”. On the webpage it is explained that it is prohibited to install the components and parts that are necessary for converting the car to ethanol.

The Government wishes to encourage the market to influence the car industry to manufacture more cars for ethanol. There are no short cuts when acquiring a clean vehicle.

For more information please contact Ulf Roos, BIL Sweden, phone no 08-701 63 60.

Source: Press release from BIL Sweden, September 6 2005. Sweden is a trade association for companies that manufacture and import private cars, lorries and buses in Sweden.

Cheers

Djoezz

[aygo vvti]

No, the engine will not blow up on 100% E85, what might happen is that it works sub optimal with unclean burn of fuel and air (lots of HC in exhaust gasses), which is not desireable. Or it can work good, it all depends on the control software for fuel injectors / the catalysator in the car and avaliable fuel pressure - how much more fuel it is allowed to/can inject into the engine before some preset ceiling is reached. Sometimes you also need to increase fuel pressure in the fuel-pipe to be able to drive good on 100% E85. This can be done with a pressure regulator on the fuel return pipe. This is called "convert the car to run on 100% E85", something that is quite common in brazil.

well it will not blow up but you will definetely seize the engine if it is not capable of running on the E85 alone! tough mixing it with petrol wouldn't harm the engine!

[MagnusLundstedt]

The supposed dangers in propaganda from car manufacturers or some drivers organisations of running a normal car on E85 is severely overblown while the benefits are huge - a lot less CO2 exhaust and cheaper fuel. If you do the conversion correctly and careful there is no dangers involved. Remember there is a *massive* intrest from the manufacturers to be able to sell 100% E85 vehicles at premium prices, they are not afraid to use "dot the i:s and cross the t:s" combined with scare tactics to get what they want.

For those that know swedish - read more at www.etanol.nu