2003 Camry Alignment Problems?

[Intruder]

The 'net' of this problem is; the front suspension of late model Camrys, Solaras and Avalons is poorly designed (and cheap!), Caster & Camber are not adjustable but that may be irrelevent since perfectly aligned cars still pull left. Some cars are fine while others have stability and pull problems that cannot be corrected.

Dealers have been struggling with this for years and Toyota has lost an untold number of previously dedicated customers. How would you like to be a Service Manager listening to all the complaints knowing that nothing you do will fix these cars?

These cars could be fixed if Toyota was willing to spend the $$ but they have chosen to ignore the problem and let their dealers take the heat. You can be sure that Toyota understands the cost of remediation vs. the cost of lost future business and made their decision accordingly. If this problem were to be widely publicized in the press, that would change the financial balance. It costs them million$ in advertising to overcome bad press.

Or, if there were a significant number of fatalities, the NHTSA would have to take action against them and force a recall (Explorer/Firestone). That is highly unlikely.

[hyyz]

I posted following before but seems no one else cared about it. However, I still think it makes perfect sense to me.

Assume the real reason for the pull is at the Front Coil Spring Seating Upper, "I think the real right fix is for Toyota to have new Front Coil Spring Seating Upper parts intalled on pullnig cars rather than doing something on the existing parts! Yes, the dealer can fix it right now. But imagine we have to replace struts eventually (maybe in 5~6 years), how do we prevent the stuts shop from aligning the "triangle mark" (instead, the "paint mark") with the centerline of the strut shaft? And who knows if the "paint mark" still can be seen after 5~6 years???"

So if I want to keep my Camry for a long time, I have the risk of the car pulling left again unless I let the struts shop do the same thing as described in the TSB. But they might not (don't have the responsbility to) do it right. Am I right?

[Intruder]

Without an understanding of what is really behind the Left Pull, we're only speculating about what could/should be done. Remember that the alignment on these cars has been checked and confirmed to be well within spec. Multiple trips to the dealer has eliminated any possibility that it is caused by the tires. The TSB just has them rotate the spring plate but makes no mention of the root cause they are trying to correct.

I would gladly go out and buy replacement springs, struts, whatever - to fix this problem but how do I know that it will be fixed when I'm done?

It would be refreshing to have Toyota come out and explain the problem then we could all make informed decisions on what to do with our leftward leaning rides.

[Outville]

The cause of the left pull was explained to me by the factory service technician who fixed my car. He explained that the upper spring seat, which is wedge-shaped, puts a strain on the upper strut bushing in some cars, causing a binding effect under certain conditions, such as uneven roads, windage, and rough surfaces. This has the net effect of steering the car to the left whenever there is input from the environment. This can be corrected by rotating the upper spring seat 1" counterclockwise on both upper seats.

I would see no reason that replacing the upper assemblies with the updated version would not correct the problem, as long as it was shown that this binding effect was the cause of the left pull, and it couldn't be remedied by re-positioning the spring seats. Since not all cars have the problem, I can only guess that rotating the spring seat won't fix all cars.

I was told by the same factory technician that being within specifications has nothing to do with being in proper alignment. The factory specifications are a broad range of alignment angles that can be utilized to correct for road conditions and loading. Your car can be badly out of alignment yet within factory specifications. When they pull the "in spec" argument, its crap!

My experience with the left pull was that my car didn't exhibit a steady left pull. It was worse on some roadways, and seemed to be affected by temperature. It was worse in warmer weather. It was the worst on gravel roadways, and to get up my gravel lane took serious corrections. Also the wheel would not self-center after a left turn. It was as if there was a gremlin under the car steering against me--which proved to be true.

I've worked on cars since age 16, and the Toyota Camry front end is not built cheaply. It's actually fairly sophisticated for a sedan. The problem seems to derive from being fairly sensitive, and something as small as a poorly positioned beveled spring seat throws it off kilter.

The real problem, in my humble opinion is ethics. Toyota has known about the issue since 2002, and continued making these cars, day after day, without change, until February 2004, when they acknowledged the problem and updated the assembly line. They still choose to deny repairs to many of those who bought cars in good faith--knowing EXACTLY what the problem is.

[Intruder]

I would see no reason that replacing the upper assemblies with the updated version would not correct the problem, as long as it was shown that this binding effect was the cause of the left pull, and it couldn't be remedied by re-positioning the spring seats

The factory rep who looked at my car said that the spring seats could not be rotated on my 2001 because the parts are different from 2003-04 model years.

I have also been told that the parts are not interchangeable with 2003-04 models.

So...... where does that leave me? With no useful information provided by Toyota, I have no way of fixing the problem without spending gobs of money trying various solutions, none of which may help.

I have given up. I will never enter another Toyota dealership for ANY reason.

[X-toyota loyalist]

How is the fix being applied at the factory as they assemble these cars now? Are there different parts or are they simply applying the same work as the TSB prescribed. I too would gladly pay for new struts or whatever the parts are to have this thing fixed once and for all.

I thought my car was fixed but it seems to have gotten back to it's old ways the further away from the TSB fix I get. It now is starting to steer like the front wheels are both tilted inward ( / \ ) like a go cart or something. There is a popping sensation occasionally but only when I'm making a slight left hand turn ( go figure). My gas milage is 22 - 26 mpg no matter what fuel I use or type of driving that i do. I consider this poor since it's a 4 cyl.

Also, have any of you had this problem? Everytime that I've taken it to the dealer, they end up putting 37 psi in all the tires. Thec owners manual recommends 29 psi. I've reduced it to 32 psi thinking that 29 is a minimum. I wonder if over inflateing the tires somehow lessens the left hand pull????

[lilgreg56]

I HAVE JUST JOINED THE GROUP,,,WHATS UP

I HAVE A 2002 LE WITH THE SAME PROBLEM, AND I HAVE LEARNED ALOT, THIS MAY HELP EVERY ONE WITH THE LEFT DRIFT PROBLEM. TOYOTA HAS KNOW ABOUT THIS PROBLEM SINCE THE NEW BODY STYLE.

PAY ATTENTION ALL !!!! I HAVE A TSB # FROM NOV/DEC OF 2001, THATS CORRECT 2001, HERE IT IS.....ST005-01 OR STOO5R-01, WHICH MENTIONS THE CAR PULLING TO ONE SIDE, SO DONT LET ANY ONE AT THE DEALER TELL YOU THEY DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT A LEFT DRIFT OR ITS YOUR FAULT...BS

HERE IS MORE EVEDENT TO HELP ALL , GO TO THIS WEB SIGHT WWW.ALLDATA.COM

I PULLED IT UP AND PUT IN THE APPROPRIATE INFO FOR MY 2002 AND GUESS WHAT? THERE ARE 62 TSB #S, STARTING WITH NOV 2001 UP TO JULY 2003.

PRINT OUT WHAT YOU FIND AND TAKE IT WITH YOU AS YOU GO TO THE DEALER, WATCH THE LOOK ON THERE FACES,,HAHAHAH,,,,,,BUSTED

[Mazyeve]

Don't you have to be a subscriber to pull up data at www.alldata.com? I've tried to pull up stuff there before and it wouldn't let me unless I subscribed.

[lilgreg56]

THE SECTION I HAVE GONE TO YOU DONT HAVE TO SUBSCRIBE.

ON THE HOME PAGE OF WWW.ALLDATA.COM LOOK FOR ( RECALL AND TECH SERVICE BULLETIN), THIS WILL TAKE YOU TO THE NEXT PAGE. ON THE BOTTOM RIGHT OF THAT PAGE IT SHOWS THE YEARS OF THE CARS YOU CAN CHECK ON.

PULL UP THE CAR YOU WANT TO CHECK ON AND YOU ARE THERE!!!

GOOD LUCK

[Intruder]

I have had TSB 005-01 for quite some time and it makes no difference. It confirms that the problem has been around for years but it does not contain a fix for the pull problem.

There is a flow chart that has the dealer swap tires left to right to see if that changes the symptoms. If it doesn't, then the dealer is supposed to check/adjust alignment.

If that doesn't fix the problem, it tells them to "increase right front camber and decrease left front camber until lead/pull is eliminated." Too bad, Camber is not adjustable on these cars.

If that doesn't fix the problem it concludes that the tires (that were already eliminated as a source of the problem) are at fault. It says, "Contact your local tire distributor."

So it is obvious that Toyota has known about the problem for years but continued building millions of new cars with the same defect. They even carried the defect over into the redesigned models.

[lilgreg56]

Maybe you are not aware yet, but there is a fix to the left pull problem. The left strut is removed and the coil spring insulator is turned 25mm counter clock wise, to relieve the tension.

I have a print out which shows the techs how to do this procedure with the TSB # dated Feb. 4, 2004.

I hope this helps any one that is told its the tires or it has to do with the crown in the road.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!!!

[Intruder]

Lilgreg56,

Please read previous posts. The latest TSB is specfic to 2004 models up to certain VIN numbers. Some dealers have applied it to 2003s but (from all I can tell) they have consistently refused to apply the fix to pre-2003 models.

According to the regional tech rep who looked at my 2001, the parts are different. They cannot apply the fix and the parts are not interchangeable.

So those of us with pre-2003 cars have been locked out of any possible resolution. Please tell me I'm wrong on this but I have yet to hear of any pre-2003 car getting the Left Pull problem resolved.

BTW, I received a written response from the NHTSA (a result of numerous complaints to elected officials). They do not have a sufficient number of complaints / accidents from this issue to take action.

[Outville]

Read back through the posts--TSB ST002-04 has been discussed in detail. Many of the affected vehicles respond favorably to this set of suggestions, but not all. I suspect that many dealership technicians are not competent to perform the fix, as I believe that too many have been endoctrinated with the company propaganda and believe the customer is just too picky. I had one Toyota technician from a Michigan dealership reply to my post on the Car Talk discussion board that really illustrates the problem--he felt that the problem was with the drivers not knowing that all roads crown to the left and customers really don't know what a left pull is. I also had the experience of the dealership first determining that caster was the problem, only to find through an independent shop that the caster settings were perfect.

Also, many dealerships refuse to apply the repair suggestions, making up excuses as they go. TSB 005-01 contains generic information on eliminating tires and alignment as the cause, then blaming the tires and redirecting the customer to any local tire retailer to get rid of them. Camber is adjustable--requiring replacement or shoulder machining of the camber bolts. However, camber adjustment does not correct the problem. If the car is pulling left, leaning the camber the opposite direction makes the car really iffy to drive. This was tried on my car.

Here's my suggestion for vehicles that can't be fixed through Toyota: Eliminate all other causes of pull, alignment, tires, steering boost, etc., be sure to try testing at low speed on gravel surfaces, engine off, etc., then work with a salvage operator and find the interchangeable strut/spring assemblies, and look for good used strut/spring assemblies--once they are definitely the cause.

[aldine47]

I know further posts are like beating a dead horse but i guess i want closure.

The dealership tried 3 times to apply the TSB and couldn't get it right, so they ordered new spring seats & bearings etc. These were installed and the car still drifted left, so the TSB was applied and now the car is behaving as it should.

The service manager had said to me that most likely the first time the TSB was applied it was done incorrectly, so that when it was brought back in it was just compounding the problem. He apologized a bunch of times and it <for now> is all over.

The service department has been great in dealing with the problem (once the car was in the second time the service manager got involved right away) but what is a pisser is that had this been done right the first time then it would not require 3 additional visits and the cost of new parts and rental cars (all of which toyota took care of).

It's been a trip.

[Roger Blake]

aldine47 where is this dealer located. I ought to bring my there. I have gotten nowhere with mine. The one I purchased mine from seems incapable and probably incompetent.

[frustratedwoman]

Hi-

I am meeting with a lawyer about filing a Class action suit. I have 800 miles on my Camry (2004) and it veers to the left drastically. I bought the car in March 2004- when toyota was well aware of the problem and continues to sell the vehicle knowing I will have to come in for servicing.

My car is at the dealership now- awaiting their next assessment. I am temtped to take a loss and have them buy it back at a lesser amount. I can not deal with this frustration and agravation every day.

[Mazyeve]

You go girl. I am still trying to get mine fixed. I am taking it to another dealership this week to see what they can do with it. If that doesn't work, my state requires arbitration first to see if they will buy it back but I won't take anything less than full cost. If that doesn't work out I will be seeing a lawyer also.

It is frustrating but people like us who don't give in is what will force Toyota to do the right thing. I am actually afraid to drive mine anymore and only do so if I absolutely have to. I don't think I have put 200 miles on it in the last 6 weeks. Most of that mileage was going back and forth to the dealership.

[Outville]

I'm hanging aroung to give support to those who haven't been made right. This is not rocket science. My car was fixed back in February when it had 5,000 miles on it. At least 500 of those miles were spent going back and forth to dealerships and in test drives by incompetent service managers and technicians. It now has 11,000 miles on it--the last 6,000 have been flawless.

My car was fixed a month after I lost in arbitration--and just hours before I was going to tear it down and fix it myself. This car should really be the subject of a recall, as it is a widespread safety issue spanning three years of production.

[hyyz]

Everyone whose car has this problem should file a complaint to NHTSA (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/). This is the way to a recall. If there is no enough complaints there, NHTSA won't be able to demand a recall investigation. Am I right?

[Intruder]

hyyz,

Yes, everyone who has this problem should file a complaint with the NHTSA. That's the only way there is any hope that Toyota will treat this seriously. Technically, alignment only carries a 12,000 mile warrantee so a recall is the only thing that will fix our cars.

I wrote to all my national elected officials and the Secretary of Transportation asking for NHTSA attention. I actually received a 1 1/2 page written response from the NHTSA dated 4/20/2004. Since I have a 2001 that pulls left, they only revewed that model year. The response says:

...While there have been a number of complaints from consumers, there does not appear to be a serious safety consequence associated with these problems. Under these circumstances, there is insuficient evidence to warrant opening a safety investigation at this time. We will continue to monitor this issue and will take further action as necessary...."

It is signed by Scott Brenner, Associate Administrator for External Affairs, NHTSA

If you open an issue, be sure to treat this as a safety issue. Don't say "left pull", say that your car veers into the lane of oncoming traffic.

[frustratedwoman]

I have spent the last two days at the Toyota Dealership.

Again the 800 mile 2004 Camry. After having the car worked on for over 4 hours, the Service manager said he applied the TSB from 2004 and the car drove perfectly.

My lawyer and I went to pick up the car and test drive the vehicle.

It veered to the left yet again.

We went to the Sales division and spoke with the General Manager (you know that big man behind the glass). He said to take any issue up with Toyota. Then we asked for an appraisal so he had one of his sales "professionals" take the car for a spin. And, lo and behold, the sales guy claimed the car veered to the left. So the sales person suggests we check the air in the tires and take it to the service center.

Unbelieveable!

So, The GM said he would buy it back at 14,500.00 which is me losing out on around 4-5,000. Considering I bought the car one month ago- this is an immense loss.

All sales reps have never even heard about this veering problem before.

The lemon law in NYS requires I bring this car in a couple zillion more times before I go to arbitration. I am fed up as it is and I don't even want to see this thing in my driveway.

So we are selling the car back to Toyota, the car remains at Toyota (out of sight), and we are filing suit for the difference.

I will write to all necessary divisions and have been on top of all local news. Plus my mouth is so big everyone I touch is aware of this issue and is completely floored by the large group of individuals effected.

[Mazyeve]

That was my problem. They'll give you a car if you pay the difference on a new one and yours. I told them "Don't do me any favors". I will not give up until they either fix my car or give me the full price on mine. I live less than 35 miles from where they make these cars. I don't think they want bad publicity that close to home but they will get it big time if they want it. If I give in they will have won and I want something done about this problem, not only for me but for other innocent, unsuspecting car shoppers. I have a good friend whose husband is a supervisor at the plant and a cousin who does computer stuff there. I have tried to avoid calling them to see what is going on but I may have to and see if they know anything about this problem and what is being done about it. I will keep you posted.

[Intruder]

I have been battling Toyota for over 3 years on this issue. My 2001 has only 21k miles on it because it is so bad to drive. Dozens of trips to two different dealers account for much of the mileage.

Unlike the rest of you, I have given up on ever getting a fix and I have wasted far too much time, money and emotion on a lost cause. At least I can get some satisfaction through Revenge. B)

I have my first confirmed "kill".

A year ago I swore that I would redirect as many potential car buyers away from Toyota as I could. Since then, I have told dozens of buyers about my experience and directed them to this and other Web forums discussing the Left Pull issue. I am sure that at least a few were influenced to buy elsewhere.

But now I have a confirmed "kill". A friend of a co-worker was about to buy a new Camry last week. I had my co-worker direct him to the forums and that was enough to send him running from Toyota and appreciative for the tip. I am tempted to carve a notch in the driver's door. Hopefully I'll add many more 'notches' in the near future.

If lots of potential buyers walk away because they hear of this problem do you suppose it would get some attention at Toyota?

I also had a discussion with a VW of America Company rep. He was amazed and you can be sure the story is going around VW dealers to share with comparison shoppers.

KEEP SPREADING THE WORD!

[aptcause]

Point of my reply is a 04 Solara that continues with a left drift problem after 3 dealership visits.

I have read how many owners exclaim at Edmunds.com how much value they believe there is in this car. Well, first looks can be very deceiving. What Toyota has been doing to get this false facade is to obviously skimp on the hidden integrity of these cars.

For starters, they are putting in cheap front end components -- struts with bends in them, questionable camber nuts and spacers, the list goes on. Then for rubber they put the worst tires on the market on these cars. Firestone and Bridgestone had a tire fiasco not long ago -- remember all those top heavy Explorers getting blowouts?

Hey Toyota, the more you force me into the dealerships on this left drift issue, the more you sour me on you and ALL of your over rated products. And the more you sour me the more my jaws wiggle the left drift Toyota syndrome problem to all the people I see each week when we have our nut and bolt talks. Take care of me or I will tear more potential customers away from your products than Heinz has pickles.

What has become apparent is that you think you have thrown this problem into the laps of the dealerships. Hey, it won't go away! My recent call to Toyota in Los Angeles was handled in such a matter that you poured the blame on the truck transports "tying" down the cars too aggressively. Excuse me, but that's a situation the shocks would temporarily handle. There are soooooooo many excuses, Toyota. Admit your vehicle component shabbiness to save a buck here and there, and take prompt care of your buyers or you will have none left.

You have begun to lose the game of one-up-manship. Case in point: Hyundai just surpassed your junk in reliability testing at JD Power. Go Korea!!!

In ending, may I suggest all of those with like concerns to document your problem and send hard copies to NHTSA indicating this is a safety issue that involves left veering of the car that puts your safety in jeopardy. Also let Toyota know that you have legal documentation left with your lawyer and heirs in case you are killed in these vehicles while left veer played a major role in the crash. Have your heirs sue Toyota over this issue it continues to ignore. If you do not handle this manufacturer aggressively and with legal documentation you will be spinning your wheels (excuse the pun). In the meantime I will tell everyone I see about this b.s and also anyone who I see eye balling my car over the skin that hides the sin!

One last thing; some on here don't believe Toyota sees this stuff. IIf they don't, they should. Local TV has been after me to be on their set recently. I wonder if this matter would interest them even more! One more dealership visit and I will make my case known to the powers that be. Good luck, you guys. I prefer clout.

[mtnet2000]

Hello, I have a Gen5 2002 V6 SE and I had this problem, as a matter of fact the tires had to be replaced at 14,000 and now at 38,000 the tires have to be replace again, due to uneven tire where and I make sure I rotate and Have the aligment checked. Toyota can't resolve the pull to left issue for me, and I just have got use to it!