2003 Camry Alignment Problems?

[mtnet2000]

By the way, to get Toyota TSB info subscribe to this site (it is hosted by toyota for mechanics that work for toyota)it kinda expensive but worth it for the info.

http://techinfo.toyota.com/index.html

[Intruder]

The TSBs are also available in the FILES section of the 'Toyotas_Only' Yahoo User Group. No charge - but you have to register.

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Toyotas_Only/

[lilgreg56]

If any one needs to check on TSB#s there are two web sights that are free of charge.

WWW.ALLDATA.COM

WWW.NHTSA.COM

The last one some times shows what the tech has to do to correct the problem, step by step and the time it take correct the problem.

Hopefully this will help some one.

GOOD LUCK

[mtnet2000]

The only good thing about paying the $10.00 for the T.I.S. TSB, it is the same exact version that Toyota uses. When I bring a print out of the TSB. They ask me If I know someone who works for Toyota! I always remark with a "maybe". Then they don't B.S. me as much because they are still thinking I know someone :D

[Intruder]

The Yahoo group also has the original TSBs in .PDF form ...and its free.

Unfortunately, dealers and the regional tech reps still have discretion regarding when to apply the TSBs and when to tell a customer to take a hike. They can always delay, deny and ignore. Alignment is warranted for only 12.000 miles. The dealers around here are well experienced at outlasting "pesky customers". They really don't give a rat's a$$ if you ever buy another car from them.

Trust me, I know.

[redse]

My 2004 Camry SE v6 has a drifting to the left problem. It has been to a Toyota dealer for a total of five times over about a five-month period. I have a question about the TSB ST002-04. Is it for a strong left pull or for a minor but consistent drifting to the left?

On a three lane crowned asphalt road, my car will start going to the left in about three or four seconds when in the right most lane. In the middle lane it starts to the left in about one or two seconds. In the left lane it starts going to the left right away.

For those that are willing to read, my story follows:

The first three times to a dealer were to Day Toyota. The first time they rotated the tires by swapping the front tires side to side and them moving them to the rear. That didn’t help at all. The second time they did a four-wheel alignment. It seemed to drive a little different, but the pulling to the left was about the same. The third time, which is when I showed them the Toyota ST002-04 TSB, two different technicians and the service manager test-drove the car. They said that the car was normal and that any Camry right off of their lot would drive that way. They also said that the TSB did not apply to my car.

At that point I was doubting myself a little, so I asked three different people at work to test-drive my Camry to see if it is driving straight. Two people said it was pulling left within one block of the parking lot. The third person said it was pulling left after he drove it a few miles. He wanted to give it a good test before he said anything.

So I took it to Rohrich Toyota the next two times. The first time, a technician test drove it and said it was pulling to the left (a new automatic left turn feature). He did a four-wheel alignment. That helped a lot and got rid of about 75% of the pulling left problem. But it still consistently drifted to the left, especially at highway speeds of about 50 MPH or more. It seemed to be a little worse on concrete, compared to smooth asphalt. The second time I left them a copy of the TSB Toyota ST002-04 TSB. The technician could not repeat the drift to the left problem when he test-drove it. They indicated that the TSB did apply to my car and so the technician “checked all suspension components as per the TSB”. He didn’t make any adjustments because everything checked out OK. He did swap the front tires and checked the tire pressures.

One of the drivers from work, a Honda owner, said that he would definitely test-drive another Camry if I get my problem fixed. He said the Camry was nice and also drives similar to his Honda. I told him that my Camry has not been completely fixed.

Unfortunately, Toyota is wearing me down. I will probably just never buy another Camry and tell everyone who will listen about my problem. Fortunately I can use this for my short trip work car; I have another car I can use for longer trips.

Thanks for letting me vent!

:) Its fixed! After asking them to check the drift several times (and giving them a copy of TSB ST002-04 several times), the second dealer applied the TSB.

The only left drift I experience now is very slight and happens when the car is in the left lane of multilane roads. There is no drift when driving in the right lane. That implies that the problem is not completely fixed, but I believe they do not know how to get it "right on".

Edited September 2, 2004 by redse

[Intruder]

Redse,

Your experience is similar to mine but I fought Toyota for 3 years before giving up.

I have to disagree with your friend's assessment of Honda handling. I bought a Solara SE and a year later my girlfriend bought an Accord SE coupe - two comparable cars, similarlarly equipped and priced within $100 or one another.

Some aspects of the Toyota are superior; space and interior. However, there is a world of difference in handling. I am always amazed at the Honda's tight and precise steering. Getting back into the Solara feels like I'm piloting a '59 Caddy on a gravel road. Besides the left pull, Solaras/Camrys have very poor straight line stability. You have to constantly apply steering correction. The Honda wants to go straight, not wander all over the lane.

An alignment specialist told me that the fixed Caster angle on Toyotas is insufficient for good straight line stability.

Body roll on corners is also a big problem. I corrected that with after market sway bars but why should I have to do that on a new Solara when the Accord stays relatively flat in the corners?

Please open an incident with the NHTSA.

[aptcause]

Regarding the left drift problem on some Toyota vehicles, I have read more from some writers here than I care to have read. The extent of my own problem with a 04 Solara SLE was drift that took a few rides for me to observe. The original dealership did the obvious TSB work including spring plate rotation with followup alignment. Nothing changed. A second and closer dealership replaced the front struts so that the necessary adjustments for caster and camber could be attained. NOTE: Original dealership did two front end alignments and never mentioned inability to adjust within specs using the original struts.

Anyhow -- with new struts and a proper laser alignment the moderate left drift persisted. Also note -- I did not have to twist arms at this local dealership to replace struts -- they did this as a necessary service without any input from me. They had also talked with district Toyota people in Chicago on these possible fixes. The next procedeure was to replace camber bolts and the left front tire which tested out to have excessive aggressiveness. With these two things done I accompanied the customer relations manager on a test drive. The car still exhibited some left drift when in left lanes of multilane roads and highways. At no time did this man suggest that the problem had been rectified. Instead it was negotiated that I drive the car for a week and then let the dealership know what benefits, if any, I observed.

I did not even have to call the dealership. The dealership service rep called me and asked how the car drove. I explained that the only drift I experienced now was when the car was in the left lane of multilane roads and that the drift was slight and only observable if one should take hands off the steering wheel.

So where does this all take me now, one may ask? I can return for a followup laser front end alignment whereby the left side camber would be adjusted ever so slightly to bring it into somewhat better balance with the right. I have elected to drive my car for a while before doing this. In other words I am not overly concerned about what minor drift remains. I will drive the car and then come back for a free laser alignment and tire rotation later on! While the sun shines I plan to enjoy this beautiful car!

My concern is for the women who have voiced similar concerns on here while getting the run around by questionable dealerships. If I were one of those gals I would have a very close friend who is savy on cars and the human part of all this take her car in for proper servicing. If the dealership was not paying attention to me I would first approach an independent front end shop and have them diagnose my car and what was going on. Yes, this would cost a few bucks, but could go a long way explaining things that your dealership may be hiding from you. At no time would I consider getting rid of your car. This stuff is "fixable". Go for it and remember to allow the sunshine to fall upon you and brighten your day!

[Intruder]

Aptcause,

That may be good advise in the MidWest Region but I can assure that it would not work in the Northeast. Dealers in this area continue to deny that the cars have a drift problem. I have been to multiple dealers and an independent alignment shop. The car still pulls left and Toyota won't/can't fix it. Numerous letters to Toyota executives - all ignored.

Finally Toyota sent me a letter telling me that their dealers would make no further attempts to fix the car. From the start, Toyota has maintained that the Left Drift is perfectly normal behavior for these vehicles.

Unlike your experience, the dealers I visited only rotated the tires and verified that alignment was in spec. They did not acknowledge the problem even when they rode with me and I demonstrated how the car tries to veer into oncoming traffic. They always blamed the crown in the road, "normal" pull caused by Front Wheel Drive, etc.

I can't get the car fixed but at least I have saved several others from a similar fate. I never miss a chance to 'steer' new car buyers away from Toyota.

[hyyz]

I don't think the fix that the TSB suggested is the RIGHT fix for this left pull problem. They did the fix on my 04 Camry but it is still not fixed. My guess is Toyota has design flaw on these cars and the TSB is just used to compensate (cover up) the left pull caused by the flaw. Here are what I observed even after they attempted the fix 5 times on my car:

1. The car doesn't want to go straight. Before the TSB applied, it dominently pulled to left. Now, it pulls to right or left but most of time, right. It just doesn't want to maintain straight. They even blamed the tires and replaced one tire.

2. The car gives me different pull feelings when there are 1, 2 ,3, 4, or 5 people in the car.

3. The car gives me different pull feelings when the gas tank is near empty than when it is full.

4. On rough road or under vibration condition, the pull is getting worse.

5. I can notice the pull symtoms change even after I make a left or a right turn.

6. Sometimes the pull is worse and sometimes it is better even when I drive on the exactly same roads.

Based on my observation, I would suspect the design flaw happens at following areas:

1. springs, especially front spring.

2. gravity center of the car.

3. frame design.

4. axles.

This is just my oppinion. But I definitely won't buy a Toyota again. Don't tell me this is a nice car. There are more nicer cars out there. All I want is trouble-free. Given the fact that the problem is still there after 5 fixes on it, how can one argue Camry is a trouble-free car??? I already steered my colleagues from buying Toyotas now that my Camry always steers me from straight.

By the way, I have driven more 10 different cars/trucks/vans/SUVs, but none of them gave me this weird feeling.

[Intruder]

hyyz,

A Toyota mechanic told me that the non-adjustable Caster angle on these cars is much less than other cars. Caster is what makes the steering center. More caster angle and the car will center better; less - it will wander, requiring more frequent driver correction.

I am convinced that that is the root of the problem and they can't fix it. They can mess around with everything in the suspension to try to get a better balance but they can't increase Caster to make the car center properly.

[Mazyeve]

Hi everyone,

IT'S FIXED!!!! I was tenacious and it worked. A Toyota rep. finally came and fixed my car. He said it looked to him like the dealership hadn't even made the adjustments called for in the TSB. It is really nice to drive now.

He said that he believes that some of these dealerships service departments don't even read the TSB, they just look at the pictures and then IF they decided to do the work they do it incorrectly.

He said it is a simple fix and he doesn't understand any reason that any service department wouldn't want to fix it. He hinted that it might be the money. They get paid for every service call under warranty. It amounts to big bucks.

He was really nice to me and went out of his way to make things right. He even dropped me off at my house and then brought the car back to me when it was finished. It was refreshing after what I had been through with the dealership.

In order to get a Toyota tech work on my car I had to file complaints with the 800 customer service dept. The first couple of times it didn't help. The third time, I told them I was fed up and wanted to go straight to arbitration. I got the paperwork and then started thinking about those who went to arbitration only to be told...sorry.

So I called them back and told them I wanted to try one more time to get my car fixed before I went to arbitration. They took the report and then a lady supervisor called and said a tech would contact me about a time and place to work on my car.

When he called, he stayed on the phone with me for a hour to make sure he had all the facts about my car and the problem I was having. When he came to fix it, he said as soon as he got in the car he knew it was pulling. It was so nice not to hear about road crown again.

Anyway, it is fixed and I am happy. One must be tenacious so they get tired of talking to you and insist on getting a Toyota regional tech to work on your car.

[drifting]

I now keep a copy of the TSB ST002-04 from the Yahoo Group Toyotas_Only.  It is in Adobe PDF format.  If anyone has difficulty joining Yahoo, I can email it as an attachment if needed.  My 2003 XLE is doing fine after the fix.

Outville, Thanks for all of your information, I am taking my car in

the morning and this has all been very helpful. Do you think you

can email me the TSB report I am having trouble joining yahoo group.

Thanks,

sbresser@fuse.net

Hi Sharon34. I read your success with envy! I have a 2003 Camry that is a right drifter (just to be a little different!). I have a long story to tell, and as soon as I see that I can successfully post (I just joined), I will continue with my tale.

[Intruder]

Just sent you both TSBs; ST005-01 and ST002-04. They both address Camry/Solara Pull problems. Good Luck!

[earthbound]

Greetings from an angry and frustrated "right drifter". 2003 Camry LE; 17 months young with 7500 miles; drifted right from the day I brought it home. The story: at 2000 miles, dealer checked alighnment; result, "all within specs". 'Took a 900 mile trip at around 4500 miles; the gradual right drift (onset approx. 3 sec. after stable straight track established) drove me crazy over an 8-hour "herding" day. Tiring, annoying, and bordering on unsafe. Upon return, I began a 4-month relationship with the Firestone/Bridgestone dealer (Bridgestone 15" Potenza RE92 tires). Many visits and SIX new tires later (two tires were mounted at different times--finally all 4 tires were replaced at one time), the car still drifted right. Next stop, with tires as a cause pretty well eliminated, was my Toyota dealer. Alignment rechecked; "all in spec". Test drive showed gradual right drift (never left), with onset after 3 (my estimate) to 4 (test driver's estimate) seconds. 'Was told: (1) possibly an over-sensitive driver, (2)onset of right drift after only 2 seconds of straight track is considered acceptable by Toyota (Service Director flatly refused to put this in writing!), (3) my car drives "pretty straight", (4) my car drives just like all the other '03 Camrys, (5)all drift exclusively to the right also is acceptable to Toyota, and (6)"if you are not happy, here is the arbitration pamphlet". Amen. (Before the appointment, I had previousely faxed the Service Director a copy of TSB ST002-04. I had hopes that he would inquire as to whether it could be adapted for a "right drifter", since it was originally for the left-drift cars. No such offer! My relationship with that dealed thus ended!

Next stop: I called the Toyota Customer Experience Center, 1-800-331 4331, Torrence, CA. I had called a month before and talked to "Bob" (and gotten a Case Ref. #), with assurances that if the Toyota dealer could not correct the problem, he, "Bob", would "bump it up to the regional level". This time, when I asked to speak to "Bob"--(long delay while the info under my Ref # was reviewed)--and then..." "Bob" is here, but he will not be speaking to you, ever"! So I asked for the supervisor. It was immediately evident that there wasn't going to be any "bumping"! My options were stated as: (1) my only recourse is through a Toyota dealer--i.e., no help will be available at the regional level,or (2) arbitration. It was stressed several times that I should drive other '03 Camrys and compare driving performance (interesting!).

Normally I would leap into arbitration without hesitation, but thanks to this website, I have a bit more realistic "feel" for my chances of success with a "gradual" right-drifter. And from various comments that I picked up at the Toyota dealership, and in the Toyota Customer Experience conversation, I got the distinct impression that this problem was a fairly widespread one, and that responses to "'03 Camry whiners" had been quite carefully choregraphed beforehand!

Right now as a start, I think I will stick to writing letters to individuals higher in the Toyota feeding chain, and also attempt to spread the word far and wide to divert potential Toyota buyers to other car choices. Saying this does not come easily for me, because my family has owned 7 Toyotas over past years--with great satisfaction. No more!

I would greatly appreciate names/titles/phone numbers/etc. that I could use for contacts at this point in the game. Also--advice as to which action(s) to take next would be additonally welcome. Thanks for letting me vent--I feel better already!

[earthbound]

Thanks for the reply Outville.

The tires have been swapped and the pull doesn't swap. And the alignment is within spec -- maximum cross camber is 0.2 in front and 0.3 in back. Cross caster is even less. Toe and SAI are also ok.

So isn't possible that the spring insulator problem, could, in some cases be mirrored to the right side?

The pull is strong enough to change lanes by itself in 4 seconds at 70 mph. And I've tried it on all sorts of roads. The only place it doesn't pull is when the road itself is significantly banked to the left.

Hi ether100

Iread with interest your late January 04 "right pull". I think you would be intereted in my piece I justd posted yesterday by "earthbound". It seems we have exactly the same problem, only I have it on an'03 Camry LE purchased on 2 Jan, '03. So not really much difference!

I would be most interested in hearing from you as to what corrective action you have recieved, if any. I have read about Outville's success on his '03 Camry, and I am a bit encouraged. I am wondering now if the TSB ST002-04 could be adapted to the right drift case. I have eliminated tires as a cause, and have had no success/interest in the dealer doing anything other than "alignment in spec", etc. (as you will see when you read my writeup dtd 26 June, 2004. Hope to hear from you.

[nitestriper]

Oh NO.

I just bought a new Avalon three weeks ago and it pulls left too. Five times so far in for Service and they keep giving it back to me with the same problem. They even performed the TSB on the LF coils, but it still pulls left.

They keep writing "could not duplicate customer complaint". They're nuts.

I'm glad (not really) that other people have this problem as well, just wished I knew it before I plucked down my 30 grand.

They are supposed to be arranging a meeting with the Factory Service Tech (I don't know when). I guess this problem definately extends to Avalons as well. The Flagship?

I'm going to bring up all the info I read here to the tech. Maybe they will fix mine too.

[Outville]

If you read back through the posts you will find that calls to Toyota Customer Service have had no results whatsoever, as your complaint is closed when they deem to have answered your question. Do not waste the phone time. Write to them from the start. I was successful in writing to them using the applet in the Toyota company website, which is found in the FAQ list. They do not make it easy but it does create a paper trail which makes them respond. In my experience, my dealer was the biggest obstacle to getting the car fixed. Arbitration was the second biggest obstacle, which accomplished nothing at all but to provide Toyota an excuse to refuse service. My advise--DON'T DO IT! Writing to the owner of the dealership did no good, as the customer relations manager intercepted the letters and had the service manager I was complaining about respond to my complaint. The Attorney General did no good, as the arbitration clause leaves them out of the loop altogether. I had my dealership removed from the Car Talk website by relating my experience to them. The ONLY thing that got results was a well-worded letter to corporate customer service, in which I documented how I was denied warranty rights. There are people out there who can fix the car. They are few and far between, and most of them don't turn wrenches at dealership service departments. Many service techs who attempt the TSB botch it. Most can't even tell the car veers off the road, even if you ride along and see them fighting the wheel. The factory service technician let me know that "in spec" means nothing at all when it comes to being in alignment--only a range of values allowing for a wide range of adjustments, nothing more. After the 'fix" my car drives well, though a little sensitive, as it should be. It used to veer on a windy day, and got very "busy" at high speeds. Now I can drive for hours at 80-90 if conditions allow.

[Outville]

And another thing--they DO read the NHTSA complaints. The factory service technician was conversant regarding the complaints. File one if you haven't already. You will find it interesting that no other car even comes close in steering complaints to the 02-04 Camry/Solara/Avalon.

[nitestriper]

I already posted a NHTSA complaint a few days ago. I also called another dealer service department in my area. They immediately said to bring it to them, and that they are familiar with the problem (told me about the TSB right away).

The Factory Service Tech will meet with me on 7/12 and due to what I read on the previous posts, I was not holding much hope getting a fix from him.

In the meantime, I'm going to follow your advice and WRITE directly to Toyota. I also figured to bring the car to the other service department , thought it was worth a chance, before the FST meeting.

The "squeeky wheel gets the grease" they say, and I plan to be very squeeky.

Keep you posted.

[earthbound]

Hi Outville--

Ref your 2 July comments: I can't thank you enough for your help, and I am sure that there a lot more out there that feel the same way. You are right on target, and I am "laying the groundwork" per your guidance.

As things develop, I will detail my successes and failures! But I am determined, and that is a good part of the battle! You led the charge!

[nitestriper]

Welll I had my meeting with the FST and once again they refused to recognize the left pull. I suggested that I have the car fixed myself by an independent mechanic. The FST said that would not void my new car warrenty. So that's what I did. Total cost from the mechanic was less than $100.00.

Now it rides perfect---straight as an arrow. I guess that in this case you may think that Toyota won, since they sucessfully denied the problem existed and all of their service documentation supports that.

This must be how they keep their "high reliability- fewest new car defect" ratings so high.

But for a few bucks I now have a very nice driving car (and no more BS). And for now, quite happy.

I'll let you know it the problem returns after my 1200 mile round trip next week.

[Outville]

The FST said that would not void my new car warrenty. So that's what I did. Total cost from the mechanic was less than $100.00.

Now it rides perfect---straight as an arrow. I guess that in this

Nitestripper: You won--you now have a great car and Toyota missed the opportunity to salvage a small measure of their reputation and to keep yet another NHTSA complaint off the books. I would have gladly paid $100 to short-circuit the five month battle. I wasn't so lucky. I was unable to get an independent garage to get involved before the TSB came out, which forced me to continue my campaign with Toyota. The independent was hesitant to get in the middle of an unresolved warranty issue. When the TSB did come out I was hours away from getting a spring compressor and performing the TSB myself in the garage when the Toyota Customer Service rep called. My car drives perfectly 10,000 miles after the fix. It actually seems to get better over time.

[marykessler4]

After reading all of these postings I am not sure what to do. I have a 2001 Toyota Solara that pulls to the right. I had my car aligned in May at a Firestone, and they told me the caster was slightly low on the right side but within the specs and the caster "CAN'T be adjusted." It would appear that this problem can be fixed, but most of you don't say how they fixed it. I also don't have access to this TSB, so if anyone has it maybe you could email it to me at mary.kessler4@verizon.net. I am getting my wheels balanced today since they started rubmling on Sunday. I don't think this will fix the pull problem. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.

[nitestriper]

Funny you say that Outville. I actually said to the FST "Just give me your shop for a few hours and I'll fix the damn thing myself". Couldn't find my spring compressor.

My independent mechanic had no issue fixing the problem. Although I did not go into any detail about Toyota's refusals. Just said that it pulls and there might be a TSB. He said, no problem since he suscribes to "AllData". That was it, dropped it off and picked it up the next day.

BTW I told the Toyota dealer/service manager that I had it fixed and he said to send the bill and they will reimburse me. I did, but I'm not holding my breath.

And Mary....I emailed the TSBs to you. Good luck.