Sport Filters? Spark Plugs?

[Daniel Pereira]

Wich of the "sport filters" you thinks it's best? i've heard people say that the K&N give a good improve, but i've also heard that they do the inverse, pumping less power and increasing comsumption! on the other hand, i've never heard of pipercross..

About the plugs.. some say the Iridium ones are best. Is it a proven fact or just "i think that.." ? can someone do a proven A-B-A test to really demonstrate that the filter and spark plug really increase the performance?

[AygoUgo]

I would expect no difference of a small engine like the Aygo. It's already pretty efficient and has VVTi so your not going to get more power from a filter and/or plugs what ever the manufacturers claim. What you MAY get is a bit better response and that can make things feel more powerfull but I would only change those things for the convenience of not having to replace them like the standard stuff (eg clean and re oil the cotton filter - not replace a paper filter with a new one). The filter MAY also give a bit better induction sound so you get even more of the Nintendo race car sound from the engine. If anyone has done A-B-A test with consistent conditions on a rolling road then of course I am happy to concede that I'm wrong - it will be first time I've seen true benefits from these changes though and I work with a tuning specialist who has a very accurate rolling road that is regularly calibrated by the manufacturers.

Kev

[SMW]

Put a K & N in mine - no performance difference that I could notice.

I will stick my neck out though and say the sound is slightly improved and I believe the car is a bit 'smoother' although I can't define it any better than that and have no way of proving it !

[Daniel Pereira]

and what about not improving performance but fuel consumption?

[Chaliel]

Ola MindTwister,

http://www.toyotaownersclub.comforum/viewtopic....014789e0fe#1206

[aygo vvti]

of corse the the performance of the car is improved ,but as you said it is hardly noticable on a 1ltr engine! but its still there and when you need it you will find that little xtra performance you gain from the irridium plugs and filter

[AygoUgo]

of corse the the performance of the car is improved ,but as you said it is hardly noticable on a 1ltr engine! but its still there and when you need it you will find that little xtra performance you gain from the irridium plugs and filter

Sorry but have to disagree. You MAY get extra but personally I've never seen any gains on a normally aspirated car from plugs and/or filter and as originally mentioned sometimes you actually get up to a few bhp less. You may even do a rolling road comparison and find an extra 1 bhp but that could be attributed to slightly different atmospheric conditions/accuracy of the rolling road etc. Manufactuers can make all sorts of claims but then they never give full details fo how the gains were achieved. It may be different in Malta of course where they use different petrol additives to cope with the higher ambient temperature but until I see conclusive evidence and repeatable results then I won't believe you get any gains what-so-ever.

The bottom line is don't buy these things for power gains but for convience of not needing to replace the items. As I previously said you may find you engine a little smoother and more responsive - this doesn't mean it's more powerful.

Kev

[aygo vvti]

of corse the the performance of the car is improved ,but as you said it is hardly noticable on a 1ltr engine! but its still there and when you need it you will find that little xtra performance you gain from the irridium plugs and filter

Sorry but have to disagree. You MAY get extra but personally I've never seen any gains on a normally aspirated car from plugs and/or filter and as originally mentioned sometimes you actually get up to a few bhp less. You may even do a rolling road comparison and find an extra 1 bhp but that could be attributed to slightly different atmospheric conditions/accuracy of the rolling road etc. Manufactuers can make all sorts of claims but then they never give full details fo how the gains were achieved. It may be different in Malta of course where they use different petrol additives to cope with the higher ambient temperature but until I see conclusive evidence and repeatable results then I won't believe you get any gains what-so-ever.

The bottom line is don't buy these things for power gains but for convience of not needing to replace the items. As I previously said you may find you engine a little smoother and more responsive - this doesn't mean it's more powerful.

Kev

you could be right on the thing that here in malta it would be different as thats what they told me in the astra forum as they said no GTE ever ran under 15 sec in santa pod but my standard GTE engine in my daewoo (which is 200kg hevier due to galvanising as they said) ran consistent 14.4 /14.5 secs 1/4mile ! so you could be right there!

Next RWYB i will put the AYGO through for some timed runs with the original filter and with the cone filter to see if there are any gains!

[BadBoyVTEC]

Looking on google earth today and thought I would look at Malta because your from there and it would appear that every single car there is white. Is this true? Because with your Red Aygo you must stick out very much. And it also looks like you could drive from one side of Malta to the other in about half an hour.

[Black Knight]

Iridium Plugs will give absolutely no performance advantage over a well maintaintained ordinary spark plug.

The advantages of Iridium plugs is that they don't require so much maintenance since it's significantly stronger and has a higher melting point. This means the gap will be more consistent and require less adjustment than a platinum plug.

Also because of the smaller surface area less voltage is required to generate a spark there's a lower load on the ignition system in general.

If you read the marketing blurb on Iridium plugs they generally state that a good ignition will give benefits to performance, emissions and economy. This is true but somewhat misleading. A normal well maintained plug will give as good a spark as an iridium plug and give the same advantages. It's just the iridium plug will last for longer before having to be re-gapped.

[AygoUgo]

Next RWYB i will put the AYGO through for some timed runs with the original filter and with the cone filter to see if there are any gains!

You would probably need to do at least 5 runs with each to even come close to having some meaningfull results. The best and most accurate way of measuring is on a rolling road with repeateable and measureable results under consistent conditions. Lets just face - pplugs and air filters give no gains so why get so hung up on a claimed extra few bhp when they will make no difference - these are convenience or reliability mods NOT performance.

Kev

[aygo vvti]

Looking on google earth today and thought I would look at Malta because your from there and it would appear that every single car there is white. Is this true? Because with your Red Aygo you must stick out very much. And it also looks like you could drive from one side of Malta to the other in about half an hour.

ur right you can go from one side to the other in 30min (if it wasnt for the ammount of cars there is on the road nowadays) and as for colour yes there are a lot of white cars as they go by the mentality that the car keep cooler in our sun! but on sundays you see a lot of red cars like evo's , cosworths bmw's in red ,but my little AYGO still stick out

Next RWYB i will put the AYGO through for some timed runs with the original filter and with the cone filter to see if there are any gains!

You would probably need to do at least 5 runs with each to even come close to having some meaningfull results. The best and most accurate way of measuring is on a rolling road with repeateable and measureable results under consistent conditions. Lets just face - pplugs and air filters give no gains so why get so hung up on a claimed extra few bhp when they will make no difference - these are convenience or reliability mods NOT performance.

Kev

i dont give a shat what they claim about plugs and airfilters i just try and judge them myself if they are good or not im not influensed by the big claims they do!

[AygoUgo]

i dont give a shat what they claim about plugs and airfilters i just try and judge them myself if they are good or not im not influensed by the big claims they do!

You just seem quite definite that these mods WILL give a performance gain but without proper measurements you won't know, A RWYB has too many varying factors, it may "feel" faster and smoother but that doesn't mean it has more performance - theres always the risk of the placebo effect when something seems to be improved you think it is improved.

All I'm saying is I've never seen definite performance improvements from these mods however I'm still open to be proved wrong by properly measured and repeatable results. If that's what you can get then that's great for all of us who use this forum. If not then it doesn't make them bad mods, it just doesn't make them performance mods so people know what to expect from fitting the filter and/or plugs.

[Djoezz]

i dont give a shat what they claim about plugs and airfilters i just try and judge them myself if they are good or not im not influensed by the big claims they do!

You just seem quite definite that these mods WILL give a performance gain but without proper measurements you won't know, A RWYB has too many varying factors, it may "feel" faster and smoother but that doesn't mean it has more performance - theres always the risk of the placebo effect when something seems to be improved you think it is improved.

All I'm saying is I've never seen definite performance improvements from these mods however I'm still open to be proved wrong by properly measured and repeatable results. If that's what you can get then that's great for all of us who use this forum. If not then it doesn't make them bad mods, it just doesn't make them performance mods so people know what to expect from fitting the filter and/or plugs.

I fully agree with the placebo effect. Don't we all have the feeling the car is running smoother and faster after having washed and vacumed it?

Djoezz

[aygo vvti]

i dont give a shat what they claim about plugs and airfilters i just try and judge them myself if they are good or not im not influensed by the big claims they do!

You just seem quite definite that these mods WILL give a performance gain but without proper measurements you won't know, A RWYB has too many varying factors, it may "feel" faster and smoother but that doesn't mean it has more performance - theres always the risk of the placebo effect when something seems to be improved you think it is improved.

All I'm saying is I've never seen definite performance improvements from these mods however I'm still open to be proved wrong by properly measured and repeatable results. If that's what you can get then that's great for all of us who use this forum. If not then it doesn't make them bad mods, it just doesn't make them performance mods so people know what to expect from fitting the filter and/or plugs.

I fully agree with the placebo effect. Don't we all have the feeling the car is running smoother and faster after having washed and vacumed it?

Djoezz

yeah the car is faster after i go for a shat!

no you dont ! now you r pushing this too far ! you are just sceptic on the gains these changes give you So just dont do them then , it could loose hp in your car there but gain in my car here , you have to prove that but unless you prove the opposite you cant say you are sure about nothing ,and even if you try something on one car doesn't mean its going to work thesame on the other one even it is a same car as the first one!

[AygoUgo]

no you dont ! now you r pushing this too far ! you are just sceptic on the gains these changes give you So just dont do them then , it could loose hp in your car there but gain in my car here , you have to prove that but unless you prove the opposite you cant say you are sure about nothing ,and even if you try something on one car doesn't mean its going to work thesame on the other one even it is a same car as the first one!

Sorry if I offended you but my opinion is based on fact and result from rolling road tests done many different makes and models car - I work with a tuning specialist so have a greater insight than most.

Daniel had asked this forum's opinion on these products and I tried to give an informed opinion. You have a different opinion. So why not calm down a bit and let's just leave it at that. Should you come up with any meaningful results and data proving definite and repeatable gains I would be interested in hearing about it. I have seen definite and repeatable results on an accurate rolling road showing no performance gain from plugs, filters and many exhausts from many different cars which therefore reinforces my opinion.

cheers

Kev

[Chaliel]

But we all agree that Iridium plugs last longer without any maintenance.

I do like that also for the reason that you do not have to remove the plug. Remouving, remounting plugs in these alloy heads sometimes give damage to them, as the thread is somewhat fragile.

[AygoUgo]

But we all agree that Iridium plugs last longer without any maintenance.

I do like that also for the reason that you do not have to remove the plug. Remouving, remounting plugs in these alloy heads sometimes give damage to them, as the thread is somewhat fragile.

Yup I totally agree with that and Black Night also made very good points about the plugs and their benefits too.

[Daniel Pereira]

Ola MindTwister,

http://www.toyotaownersclub.comforum/viewtopic....014789e0fe#1206

est ce que tu parle un petit peu de "português"? ehehe...

ok.. so we can now all conclude (maybe, i don't know, just trying to give my opinion..) that somehow the plugs and the filter will be good mods after warranty voids.. right?

[sledgehammeruk]

This is my first post so be gentle !!!

the aygo , 107 , c1 , seems to have a high air inlet , above the exhaust

(proberly a good idea if your driving thru ford's / large puddles , most days)

If the inlet was piped lower down and funneled behind the grill

or even under the upper bumper the air is cleaner , cooler , & the funnel / air dam compresses at speed

Put a flap at the back of the funnel , just incase you do hit water

no matter how good a filter is , if the air is hot , its expanded , thus less oxygen

just to prove the point , your car will perform better on a cold foggy day

when Improving an engine / car for performance , start with the cheap easy things

lighten the body remove un-nessary trim , electrical , lose weight :D (driver included)

on the subject of octane rating B)

some modern cars (not all) are designed , so that when they "pink" or knock , a knock sensor ,

near the combustion chamber tells the computer to !Removed! the engine timing

thus avoiding fuel detonation and engine damage , :censor:

in normal driving conditions , the computer may advance the timing until it reaches detonation

and then back off slightly , for a controlled burn

higher octaine rating , more advance tolerated , more power , less knock

lower octaine rating , more knock , less advance , less power

octain ratings , average temps , humidity , altitude , all affect engine performance a lot B)

also most super chips increase the fuel injected for a cooler inlet charge (petrol cools air)

and the car will knock less as a result + higher advance , and maybe more power as a result

but when cold , more fuel is normally injected for cold start + extra from super chip ,

fuel isn't completely burnt and is left on cylinder wall to thin the oil :ffs:

some times the extra fuel leads to extra carbon buildup :!Removed!:

also most i've driven tend to be over fueled for town driving

if you want real performance from your c1 , 107 , aygo .... go buy a ferrari :censor:

if you want real economy ...... stick with what u got :D

Now i'll crawl back under my rock , someone wake me when it stop's raining :(

[Chaliel]

est ce que tu parle un petit peu de "português"? ehehe...

Non je ne parle pas du portugues du tout. Mais mon fils est au Brésil et il commence ces mails toujours avec Ola, ou Opa, ce qu'on dit dans le nord du Brésil.

[Black Knight]

This is my first post so be gentle !!!

the aygo , 107 , c1 , seems to have a high air inlet , above the exhaust

(proberly a good idea if your driving thru ford's / large puddles , most days)

If the inlet was piped lower down and funneled behind the grill

or even under the upper bumper the air is cleaner , cooler , & the funnel / air dam compresses at speed

Put a flap at the back of the funnel , just incase you do hit water

no matter how good a filter is , if the air is hot , its expanded , thus less oxygen

just to prove the point , your car will perform better on a cold foggy day

when Improving an engine / car for performance , start with the cheap easy things

lighten the body remove un-nessary trim , electrical , lose weight :D (driver included)

on the subject of octane rating B)

some modern cars (not all) are designed , so that when they "pink" or knock , a knock sensor ,

near the combustion chamber tells the computer to !Removed! the engine timing

thus avoiding fuel detonation and engine damage , :censor:

in normal driving conditions , the computer may advance the timing until it reaches detonation

and then back off slightly , for a controlled burn

higher octaine rating , more advance tolerated , more power , less knock

lower octaine rating , more knock , less advance , less power

octain ratings , average temps , humidity , altitude , all affect engine performance a lot B)

also most super chips increase the fuel injected for a cooler inlet charge (petrol cools air)

and the car will knock less as a result + higher advance , and maybe more power as a result

but when cold , more fuel is normally injected for cold start + extra from super chip ,

fuel isn't completely burnt and is left on cylinder wall to thin the oil :ffs:

some times the extra fuel leads to extra carbon buildup :!Removed!:

also most i've driven tend to be over fueled for town driving

if you want real performance from your c1 , 107 , aygo .... go buy a ferrari :censor:

if you want real economy ...... stick with what u got :D

Now i'll crawl back under my rock , someone wake me when it stop's raining :(

I agree with everything you've said although I'd be willing to get into a debate about octane ratings. What you say is absoultely correct in that the knock sensor will allow the ignition timing to advance to optimise the engine performance but then !Removed! it to protect the engine from damage. My only point would be that this is true only so long as the ECU is optimised to allow the ignition timing to advance that far up the map. Some Engine mods may also make the engine knock earlier also making higher octane fuel more beneficial.

HOWEVER, in a normal road car in the UK this is not the case and high octane fuels give absolutely zero benefit. The ECU simply isn't written with a program to make use of high octane fuels. You have to be driving something high performance such as Ferrari's/Subaru Imprezza's/Mitsubishi Evo's etc that have the required engine maps to make use of this (although you then mention super chips that may also make use of this)

[sledgehammeruk]

I won't get into the octane argument , as engine management data

differ's depending on the source , but nearly all cars produced at the moment have knock sensors and some go back to 1980 !!!

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h38.pdf

http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/shop_par...sor/toyota.html

but ...

The sirion 1.0l has the same engine as the aygo/pug/citroen

but they get an air inlet pipe for cool clean air !

sledgehammeruk