Hand Over Your Crown.

[lifechooser]

Hi, I'm a bitter Peugeot 107 owner. I drive the greenest new car on sale in Britain today. But I see that the Toyota Prius is still wandering around making boasts about how it is the greenest car. I mean, no-one even knows what a 107 is, I have to explain to people that it's a bit like an Aygo, you know like on Top Gear playing football.

Well, times up. it's time for you Prius owners to put up or shut up. I challenge you to a debate, on your own turf. Hopefully I will prove that your grass is not as green as you think. Then we can make friends and pick on Smart owners who seem to produce a lot of CO2 for their size.

I state now that the petrol 107/C1/Aygo 3 door is the most environmentally friendly car in Britain today.

1) It is more fuel efficient than a Prius. I have achieved 55mpg over 4,000 miles now. A mix of town, country, motorway, traffic jams, long and short journeys. No special driving technique, no excuses. My worst tank full of petrol was 51.1 mpg, my best 59.6mpg. According to What Car?'s report into mpg claims, the 107 was listed as being more economical according to their tests, see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2298467,00.html

2) Manufacture is more local, saving on thousands of miles of transportation by ship, which produces a lot of CO2.

3) The car is lighter and simpler. A Prius is 1325kg, while a 107 is just 790kg. Less weight to move around gives higher efficiency, but also suggests that far less of the earths resources are used in it's production. Especially considering that the Prius's extra weight is contained in technology such as batteries, motors, plastics etc, none of which are ever enviromentally friendly.

4) Ah, batteries, do they need replacing every so often? How green is that?

5) The 107 has clever fuel saving tech too, but it's far less complex. Light weight, an engine which has less internal friction thanks to 3 cylinders, low rolling resistance tyres, a slippery shape, and a nice modern VVTi engine.

So Prius people. How do you plead? Are you willing to accept that your car is not the greenest?

[ecodoc]

Having just had an Aygo(107 in disguise) whilst my Prius was in the garage,I have just one comment to make.........

Try getting 4 six footers in it without resorting to amputation or yoga! :P

[chris202]

greener or not - 3 things

1. The pug will not last as long as a toyota

2. It sure as hell doesnt look as good

3. Its french.......

[Jinxed]

Well, times up. it's time for you Prius owners to put up or shut up. I challenge you to a debate, on your own turf. Hopefully I will prove that your grass is not as green as you think. Then we can make friends and pick on Smart owners who seem to produce a lot of CO2 for their size.

So Prius people. How do you plead? Are you willing to accept that your car is not the greenest?

green schmeen who gives a flying dingleberry? those people who prioritise green over all other things are a tad wrong imo.... I personally enjoy knowing im doing my bit for warmer climates here in blighty and also for keeping the number of all living things down to manageable numbers with the emissions my 2 puts out...

if any of you truly gave a toss about the environment you'd buy pushbikes!

[Trafficman]

Totally agree that the Prius's green credentials are overstated compared with toy cars and boring diesels! BUt again having an Ago as a courtesy car, I did not feel particularly safe, n(not much crumple zone) I would not like to be rearended by a landcruiser in it!

But we are missing the point here. Firstly the Prius is vast! It is really really fun to drive, quiet, and you can kill lots of wildlife and folks in car parkls by putting it into stealth mode!

Comparing a Prius and a 107 is like comparingLiverpool football team with Port Vale!

:!Removed!:

[Pug Bug]

Yes you can fit 4 six fotters in an Aygo and you do not need to practise Yoga to make it possible it is actually very easy. Agreed you would not want to do a Lands End to John O Groats but 20 miles certainly isn't a problem.

It is built in a Toyota run factory with parts sourced in conjunction with Toyota therefore it will last it looks better than the Aygo and it has the Toyota Engine which makes it far less French than you think.

Yes a push bike is greener but i don't fancy an early grave cycling to work with all the sleepy drivers around threatening to knock me off at every junction!

This is comparing their enviromental credentials not the safety however it did recieve 4 stars in Euro Ncap.

Is it fair that the Prius is still exempt from congestion charging yet it is less environmetally friendly than the 107/Aygo/C1?

[TheNissanMan]

What your not taking into conderation is scale, yes the Aygo/C1/107 has better fuel economy, if your stating 51mpg our Micra demonstrator is averaging 55.4mpg (does that make it greener still as it is built in the UK?) but as stated the Prius is a family sized car which can carry 4 adults and luggage comfortably which makes it practical!

In terms of scale the Prius would be a lot more economically friendly that the Aygo although Diesels do still beat it hands down.

[Demonic Angel]

I think, to make it fair you need to compare the Prius to similarly sized family cars - not city cars!

Compared to other family hatches I'd say the Prius performs rather well... If you're going to make scientific comparisons, it needs to be a fair test, as my science teacher used to say... ;)

[lifechooser]

Hmm, I guess I should've seen a few of those excuses coming. I'll correct a few bits of ignorance first;

Try getting 4 six footers in it without resorting to amputation or yoga!

I have. Quite a few times, all of them were quite comfortable. Because it has such a small engine bay and boot, it's massive on the inside, far bigger than you would expect, and actually, it's far more spacious than a prius!

1. The pug will not last as long as a toyota

2. It sure as hell doesnt look as good

3. Its french.......

1) It is a Toyota. Toyota is stamped all over it. It will last longer than a Prius is likely to, as it's not using experimental technology, just tried and proven petrol power. Unless you have some sort of mystical vision that I should know about.

2) Are you blind????

3) No it isn't. It's Czech.

I did not feel particularly safe, n(not much crumple zone) I would not like to be rearended by a landcruiser in it!

But we are missing the point here. Firstly the Prius is vast! It is really really fun to drive,

It's got 4* ncap, and it's a myth that bigger cars are safer. Logic suggests they are, but reality is different. Did you see the smart on 5th gear hitting the concrete wall at 70mph? They would've been just as badly off in a large car, because the smaller cars have less energy to diserpate. Anyway, facts is facts, 4*'s = safe car, even if you have some sort of phobia of small vehicles, which you seem to do by pointing out that the Prius is vast. Is vast good? I don't see the relation myself, I'd rather have something smaller, easy to park and chuckable.

Oh, and *you* are missing the point. The point was, which is most enviromentally friendly. If the argument was about anything else, then I wouldn't come to a Prius forum. I'm sure the Discovery forum would love to use practicality, looks and space as an excuse for bad economy. Oh, and fun to drive? *snooort*.

So, everyone agrees that the 107 is greener, apart from someone who thinks that a micra is greener still. I guess that may be an argument for another day.

Just hand over your crown then. The 107 is greener, and I don't care about any arguements about how the Prius is better because it looks better and occupies more land. We win. So there.

[Demonic Angel]

We win. So there.

How wonderfully adult!

Regardless of your reasonings, you can't possibly compare a city car to a family sized hatchback.... each has their flaws and qualities.... you also can't say a 107 is more spacious than a Prius.... size matters! I have a Yaris, kind of your distant cousin and I know boot space is horrendous in a Yaris, I can imagine it being less in a 107.... thats what you'd call "a fact"

I'm not blind, I'm a woman, I know what looks good and what doesn't and to be honest, I'd choose a Prius over a 107 every time, I'd choose an Aygo over a 107 - same car, Aygo looks nicer! ;)

You really can't come on to a Toyota forum and expect people to side with a Peugeot - its never going to happen, you're related to the ghastly 207.... you're only one digit away - dont forget that!

Plus... how many celebs do you know who drive 107's? Cameron Diaz and Leonardo DiCaprio have Prius'.... we win. So there.

[Jinxed]

Regardless of your reasonings, you can't possibly compare a city car to a family sized hatchback.... each has their flaws and qualities.... you also can't say a 107 is more spacious than a Prius....

apparently he can but hes demonstrating why he/she/it isnt really terribly worthwhile to hold a debate with....

believe those in search of the truth not those that think theyve found it....

and as for environmentally friendly....and seeing as we can make apparently any comparison we like.... I've got a Volvo 340 thats far more environmentally friendly than most of either prius's or the 107's and i can prove it....

It has many qualities with one big flaw.... it hasnt worked in 7 years cos the engines blown so there u go ....so it doesnt really look like youll be keeping that crown very long does it life....

[Demonic Angel]

Not to mention Toyota takes care of its UK workforce.... Peugeot are closing their Ryton plant near Coventry (where the 206 was built) and its the loss of thousands of local jobs (Rugby neighbours Coventry and a lot of Rugby people work there)

I'd never buy a Peugeot on that basis, I dont care if the car is built in the Czech Republic or whatever, its still got a lion on its chest - I think its unfair for all those workers to lose their jobs just so Peugeot can save a few bob by transferring car manufacturing to Eastern Europe....

At least Toyota up in Derby (where the Avensis & Corolla are made) value their workforce....

And ok, the Prius (or the Yaris for that matter) arent built in the UK, but a lot of Toyotas are - I think that stands for a lot.

"I'd rather get run over than drive a Peugeot" ;) :D

It has nothing whatsoever to do with your argument..... I'm just adding a few extra strands to the Peugeot vs Toyota thing!

[lifechooser]

But remember that a 107 is identical to a toyota aygo, so all of your toyota based arguments are flawed.

Also, I don't see why you are hiding behind the prius's size. Yes, it's very economical for it's size, but that isn't the point. The point is, why does everyone point at the prius when they think of environmentally friendly cars, when it isn't the greenest. Why is it allowed free congestion charges, and so much publicity, when it's not as green as other cars out there?

And still no-one has denied that the C1aygo7 isn't greener.

[Demonic Angel]

If you are so bitter about it.... which you obviously are.... why dont you get a push bike? :D

Now thats cleaner than a Prius AND a 107! ;) Problem solved! Totally pollution free, no need to be bitter about the Prius because you'll definitely be much greener!

[TheNissanMan]

Hmm can I start a thread on Nutz about how an MR2 Turbo is more fun than a 5 ?

Hmm can I start a thread on Nutz about how an MR2 Turbo is more fun than a 5 ?

[lifechooser]

What twice? If you like, I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun.

I did admit to being bitter, so I thought I'd come over here and start a fun thread in order to vent.

A push bike is out of the question as I'd never manage 20,000 miles a year on one!

[Demonic Angel]

It is fun... I like you!

And just imagine how buff you'll be after 20,000 miles on a push bike! ;)

[ecodoc]

Well I have enjoyed this little storm in a teacup(107)! :P

Life Chooser, it`s always good to correct ignorance and misconceptions..........

BUT only if they really are!

As I said I had the dubious honor of having an Aygo for a day.

I`m 6'2" and with the seat in my usual driving position there was approx 3" between the back of the seat and the front of the back seat cushion.

Correct my ignorance but all your 6' friends must have VERY skinny legs!

At best the Aygo(and hence 107) are `city` cars that are fine for short journeys and if you have short family&friends.

To say the interior is more spacious than a prius is at best delusional.

The other prius owners comments regarding it being a `vast` car relate to interior space not the cars external dimensions which are actually modest.

The boot space on the Aygo literally lived up to its name! I bought some boots on the way home and in their box they almost filled the aygos boot. :ffs:

And if you really want to talk who`s got the greenest car........

My city car is a Honda Insight.

[lifechooser]

Which do you get best economy out of, what MPG do the insight and prius give? The insight was a cool car.

[ecodoc]

As you would expect the 2 seater, aluminium +plastic,900cc 3 cylinder Insight gives the best economy. :D

Even here in Cumbria(which is far from flat!), the Insight gives in excess of 70MPG on combined cycle runs when driven just like any other car.

Around town the Insight gives around 56MPG when driven as normal.

The Prius which is a 5 seater, much heavier,1500cc,4 cylinder family car is not as economical.

On a recent trip to Edinburgh and back,mixing country/fast A roads and motorways,the Prius averaged 56MPG when driven like a normal car and at `proper` motorway speeds.

On combined cycle type runs it will sometimes exceed 60MPG.

Around town you tend to get an average of 45mpg.

Just to put that into perspective, my old Audi used to average 26MPG at best and approx 18MPG at worst!

I like both cars for different reasons.

The Prius is a consumate cruiser and I would choose it without question for long journeys over my previous Audi.

The Insight is more `fun`,feels like a sportscar and is not as refined as the Prius.

Hope that answers your questions.

[Peter@Beoworld]

Well I have enjoyed this little storm in a teacup(107)! :P

Life Chooser, it`s always good to correct ignorance and misconceptions..........

BUT only if they really are!

As I said I had the dubious honor of having an Aygo for a day.

I`m 6'2" and with the seat in my usual driving position there was approx 3" between the back of the seat and the front of the back seat cushion.

Correct my ignorance but all your 6' friends must have VERY skinny legs!

At best the Aygo(and hence 107) are `city` cars that are fine for short journeys and if you have short family&friends.

To say the interior is more spacious than a prius is at best delusional.

The other prius owners comments regarding it being a `vast` car relate to interior space not the cars external dimensions which are actually modest.

The boot space on the Aygo literally lived up to its name! I bought some boots on the way home and in their box they almost filled the aygos boot. :ffs:

And if you really want to talk who`s got the greenest car........

My city car is a Honda Insight.

Interesting debate but, as said, chalk and cheese. For around town, I would have an Aygo. If travelling more than 50 miles, I would rather have something bigger like the Prius. I am actually 6'2" and can fit in the back seat of the Aygo behind the front seat adjusted for me. I wouldn't want to be there long, but I fit!

The wife now has an Aygo - I have a Mercedes A class but would consider a Prius in the future mainly because I like quiet cars.

[Plusser]

There was a survey carried out recently in the US that suggested that the Prius wasn't as green as many make out it to be. This was based on the fact that the greatest impact on CO2 emissions from any car occurs during its manufacture, which means that the Prius looses out as the car was more complex to build (motors and controllers all raise the amount of energy required to build the car).

However, what the survey also suggested was that the cars that generated the least amount of CO2 during their life were cars that were either small or simple to build. The best car was rated as the Jeep Wrangler (which has a very basic construction), second was the Toyota Yaris. The Aygo was included in the survey as it is not currently sold in the US, but I'd be very interested how it would compare on this basis, especially as the US Yaris has a much bigger 1.5 litre engine, which would decrease the fuel economy in comparison with the European version.

It all depends on which way you define the word Green!

[Habu]

A little off topic here but personally, I don't give a monkeys about the environment but I still drive a Prius. It's comfy, quiet, refined and pretty economical and inside it's vast although modest on the outside. I average 55mpg. I could have bought a TDi if I wanted to be economical (although I doubt many TDi's would better 55mpg unless they were a city car) but the Prius is just so different and that's why I drive one. For the non Prius owners out there I have:

- no handbrake (and the car doesn't roll backwards even on a 1 in 4 hill) - very trick

- 'park' is a button to press

- 'drive by wire' throttle and brakes

- electric steering

- 8 air bags

- 9 JBL Speakers including a JBL amp and DSL

- EuroNcap 5* and the highest ever recording of any car for rear child safety

- the brakes only come on for the last 8mph (unless you emergency stop) as it anti-torques the energy from the forward motion to re-charge the Battery by changing the electric motor into a generator and that slows / stops the car- very trick

- coasting and braking also charge the Battery - very trick

- the leccy motor alone has 295 ft lb of torque from 0 rpm

- I can cruise around town on the leccy motor emitting zero crap, not using any juice and no noise whatsoever

- we have ABS, EBD, TRC+, SRC and BA

- the auto box is a e-CVT and it's brilliant to roll around town especially with all that torque.

- did I say it's roomy, I mean really roomy :)

I could go on and on but I won't, so there :P

Now stick that in your French / Czech tinny box :P

[LEXUS]

1.)Prius is a lot larger than 107/aygo

2.)Prius is a lot quicker/faster acceleration,better max.speed/

3.)Prius has better /lower/ emissions-104 g./km.

4.)Prius has better fuel economy./-urban-5/100km.//extra urban-4.2/100km.While 107/aygo- urban--5.5l/100km.//extra urban--4.6l./100km. 107/aygo emissions--109g/km./

5.)Prius is a lot quieter even in high speeds,unlike the 107/aygo

6.)Prius has 8 years hybrid system warranty!

7.)Prius is a high-tech Japan made car,unlike 107/aygo.

8.) So Prius is faster,greener,more comfortable,more spacious,making less noise,less emissions,smarter uses fuel because of the high-tech hybrid technology.

9.)So what the 107/aygo does better than prius???

10.)In conclusion the facts tell us that Toyota Prius is the greenest car.

[Toyota PR]

There was a survey carried out recently in the US that suggested that the Prius wasn't as green as many make out it to be.

That would be the CNW survey. A flawed piece of work, mainly as they have made many, many assumptions, most contrary to what everyone else - not just Toyota - thinks.

Here's what we said at the time;

Immediate Release 4 October, 2006

Recycled Rubbish?

CNW Marketing Research Inc. – Study on Hybrid Efficiency

A number of UK publications have recently re-presented the results of an old study by a North American marketing research agency, CNW Research Inc. This study makes some surprising and uncorroborated claims about the total environmental impact of vehicles over the complete lifecycle (i.e. production - use - recycling).

The media have picked up on one particularly eye catching claim, namely that the Jeep Cherokee is cleaner than a Toyota Prius hybrid saloon. This result runs contrary to all other research in the area.

The “results” of the CNW study

As with any model, it is critical that the methodology is valid, the assumptions are sound, and the data accurate. The CNW study makes several assumptions which undermine the conclusions arrived at. Without a scientific peer review, it is impossible to comment on any of these factors.

What is clear, however, is that the conclusions appear to be very different from the results of several other rigorous, scientifically-reviewed studies of the lifecycle impact of vehicles (e.g. Argonne National Laboratory, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

• Example 1: These studies conclude that the majority (80-85%) of the total lifetime energy use of a vehicle comes from the driving stage, with the remainder coming from the remaining stages of a vehicle life, whereas the CNW study shows these percentages to be reversed.

• Example 2: Two Toyota models mentioned in the report, the Scion xA and xB sold only in the USA, are engineered with the same processes, built on the same assembly line, transported and shipped together, distributed through the same dealer network, have the same engines and transmissions, are about the same weight (within 50 lbs.), and have very similar fuel consumption ratings (one just over 35 mpg combined, the other just below 35), yet the CNW study shows the lifetime energy use of these vehicles to be very different (53 per cent).

• Example 3: The CNW study states that hybrids require more lifetime energy than even large SUVs. Toyota’s internal analysis does conclude that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for a hybrid, but that this is overwhelmingly made up for in the driving stage (the 80-85% stage), causing the hybrid to have a significantly lower lifetime energy use.

There are also basic factual errors in the report, for example CNWs claim that the hybrid batteries are not recycled.

In truth Toyota and sister brand Lexus have a comprehensive Battery recycling programme in place and has been recycling Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the Battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case, and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota , each Battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information.

Toyota and other environmentally conscious car makers have been using life cycle assessment for many years to evaluate various advanced vehicle technologies. Toyota, along with many others, believes that the best way to judge the environmental impact of a vehicle is to do a full evaluation of all the inputs and outputs in every stage of its life. The lifetime energy use is just one of the many things to look at.

The environment and the role of the car in CO2 emissions are rightly a very important subject for debate. Toyota welcomes such debate. However, the debate is not helped by sensationalistic reporting of an uncorroborated and unrepresentative piece of marketing research carried out in North America.

ENDS