Starting Problem - Advise Required

[pips]

I've got an intermittent starting problem. Basically if the engine is stone cold, then it starts (albeit a little bit sluggish). When I've been on a run of approx 20-30 miles and the engine is at normal temp, then the engine is stopped. It won't (usually) start again either until it's cold or a booster Battery is connected to the Battery.

Initially I thought it was Battery problem, so replaced it with a Bosch Silver Technology Battery (on the Monday).

Everything seemed okay until the Friday morning when I dropped my parents off at Manchester Airport. I had driven 19miles on motorway then stopped the engine and it just wouldn't start again.

The battery doesn't appear to be flat, as it cranks the engine over. The RAC came out (very impressed in the 11minutes waiting time!!) connected the jump leads to his tranny van and it burst into life.

The battery connection to the chassis was cleaned and also an extra long lead was connected from the chassis battery point to the engine block.

This has improved things slightly, but not fully.

So the Rav went in to Mr T today.......... guess what...? yep, they "can't find anything wrong with the car" - now there's a surprise!

I told the "techie" at Mr T that I wasn't imagining the fault - but unless they can simulate the problem, they can't repair the fault. They won't even take my or the RAC guy's word that it's the starter!

So, what does anyone else think it could be?

Cheers,

Phil

[anchorman]

I've got an intermittent starting problem. Basically if the engine is stone cold, then it starts (albeit a little bit sluggish). When I've been on a run of approx 20-30 miles and the engine is at normal temp, then the engine is stopped. It won't (usually) start again either until it's cold or a booster battery is connected to the battery.

Initially I thought it was battery problem, so replaced it with a Bosch Silver Technology Battery (on the Monday).

Everything seemed okay until the Friday morning when I dropped my parents off at Manchester Airport. I had driven 19miles on motorway then stopped the engine and it just wouldn't start again.

The battery doesn't appear to be flat, as it cranks the engine over. The RAC came out (very impressed in the 11minutes waiting time!!) connected the jump leads to his tranny van and it burst into life.

The battery connection to the chassis was cleaned and also an extra long lead was connected from the chassis battery point to the engine block.

This has improved things slightly, but not fully.

So the Rav went in to Mr T today.......... guess what...? yep, they "can't find anything wrong with the car" - now there's a surprise!

I told the "techie" at Mr T that I wasn't imagining the fault - but unless they can simulate the problem, they can't repair the fault. They won't even take my or the RAC guy's word that it's the starter!

So, what does anyone else think it could be?

Cheers,

Phil

Try cleaning the wiring connector on the fuel pump stop soleniod (on the fuel pump itself).

Good luck....

[RAV4 in Family]

Altinater or strater is my guess

[pips]

:censor: Well - Mr T kept the car for another day after my last posting and suprise suprise they couldn't find anything wrong with it!!!!

I asked them what had been done to diagnose the problem - and apparently they had been out on the road in it, and also had it running in the workshop for over 2 hours, and it started everytime for them!

Feeling extremely :censor: off with them, I collected my car from the sales staff (as service finished at 6pm) - well, imagine my suprise when I got in my car - the mileage was exactly the same as when I dropped the car off - They had even left the job card on my dashboard with the mechanics (or should that be parts fitter) own handwriting showing the mileage.

As I keep accurate records of my mileage when I fill up with fuel, I promptly went and filled up so I could work out the MPG - I would have expected it to be quite low, seeing as they had had the engine running for over 2 hours - and guess what?? It was HIGHER than my last run on a full tank - so obviously they had done sweet :censor: ALL and they had lied to me. :ffs:

Obviously I am not leaving the matter there, and have written a nice polite 2 page essay to the General Manager pointing out all the facts and also told him that the service staff are liars, and have also told him that I want the car collecting and fully fixed before it is returned along with a complimentary courtesy car and compensation for all the :censor: ing about. I have also sent a copy of the letter to Toyota GB to let them know how their dealers are treating customers!

I will let you all know the outcome of it.

Cheers,

Phil.

[Steve@Aberdeen]

Intermittent starting problems with a diesel often turn out to be attributed to the fuel system - a small leak at a union, for example. You may not see fuel coming out, but neither will you see air being drawn in.

[anchorman]

:censor: Well - Mr T kept the car for another day after my last posting and suprise suprise they couldn't find anything wrong with it!!!!

I asked them what had been done to diagnose the problem - and apparently they had been out on the road in it, and also had it running in the workshop for over 2 hours, and it started everytime for them!

Feeling extremely :censor: off with them, I collected my car from the sales staff (as service finished at 6pm) - well, imagine my suprise when I got in my car - the mileage was exactly the same as when I dropped the car off - They had even left the job card on my dashboard with the mechanics (or should that be parts fitter) own handwriting showing the mileage.

As I keep accurate records of my mileage when I fill up with fuel, I promptly went and filled up so I could work out the MPG - I would have expected it to be quite low, seeing as they had had the engine running for over 2 hours - and guess what?? It was HIGHER than my last run on a full tank - so obviously they had done sweet :censor: ALL and they had lied to me. :ffs:

Obviously I am not leaving the matter there, and have written a nice polite 2 page essay to the General Manager pointing out all the facts and also told him that the service staff are liars, and have also told him that I want the car collecting and fully fixed before it is returned along with a complimentary courtesy car and compensation for all the :censor: ing about. I have also sent a copy of the letter to Toyota GB to let them know how their dealers are treating customers!

I will let you all know the outcome of it.

Cheers,

Phil.

Phil

These intermittent problems are always frustrating but to be fair it's like tooth ache. When you go to the dentist and it stops he's got nothing to fix!

I can't see what leaving it running will achieve when it is a starting problem. You have to remeber that it will run for quite a long time at idle without using much fuel. Your calculations would have to be very accurate as even a little bit of glugging back in the filler neck when filling up might make the difference whether or not you could measure it and whether it might show more which is technically impossible. Don't get me wrong Phil I just wouldn't want you to ridicule yourself in front of Toyota (although why they should tell you that they have been out in when obviously they have not is a bit of a mystery).

There are two possible reasons for it not starting. One is electrical and as Steve says the other is fuel. It's hard to say which is most likely without listening to it at the time of not starting. If it is fuel then usually it will crank faster and faster when the starter is turned until the air is purged out of the system and then they usually miss and knock a little until all of the air is gone. In this case as Steve says look at the pipes to the fuel filter and the fuel pump on the engine to see if any are loose. Sometimes you can see a tell tale damp patch around one of the components. It can leak fuel out while it is running and let air back in when it isn't. If the fuel filter hasn't been changed for a long time then change it - they can be particularly troublesome and can bear absolutely no relationship to mileage or duty. I have known garages sod around for days before curing a problem by changing the fuel filter. If it has been done recently then pay particular attention to it as this is a trouble spot and a prime cause of an air leak.

The reason I suggested that you try the fuel stop solenoid on the injection pump is because you described that even though the Battery was good, if you jump started it it burst into life. I presume this means without any misfire or speeding up as described above. Sometimes if there is a poor connection and you increase the amperage by connecting another Battery it will overcome the resistance and the solenoid will open.

You need to answer the following questions.

With respect, are you mechanically minded and able to undertake any repairs yourself?

Has any work been done prior to the fault occuring and if so what?

When you get the problem does it turn over faster and faster as described or does it just start and run perfectly.

Have you noticed if it does it more on a slope or on level ground or both? If on a slope which way is worse as fuel will run away from the engine more when it is facing uphill. Is this the case?

Did you try cleaning the connection to the fuel cut off solenoid?

Speak to you soon.

Regards

[pips]

Anchorman, Thanks for your quite comprehensive reply, below I have answered your questions.

Cheers, Phil

Phil

I can't see what leaving it running will achieve when it is a starting problem. You have to remeber that it will run for quite a long time at idle without using much fuel. Your calculations would have to be very accurate as even a little bit of glugging back in the filler neck when filling up might make the difference whether or not you could measure it and whether it might show more which is technically impossible. Don't get me wrong Phil I just wouldn't want you to ridicule yourself in front of Toyota (although why they should tell you that they have been out in when obviously they have not is a bit of a mystery).

Yeh, the calculations are not 100% accurate, as you can never guarantee putting in exactly the same amount of fuel as the previous time - but overall the results are usually more-or-less the same. I have already sent my letter to MrT and to Toyota GB, so will have to see what they say.....

The reason I suggested that you try the fuel stop solenoid on the injection pump is because you described that even though the battery was good, if you jump started it it burst into life. I presume this means without any misfire or speeding up as described above. Sometimes if there is a poor connection and you increase the amperage by connecting another battery it will overcome the resistance and the solenoid will open.

A colleaugue of mine was thinking along the lines of solenoid not opening when hot, and the extra amperage causes it to jolt open.

With respect, are you mechanically minded and able to undertake any repairs yourself?

I like to think I am reasonably mechanically minded and have done several relatively small jobs on my car (although in my twenties, I did have the cylinder head of my mini metro when I blew a gasket) but to be honest just looking under the bonnet at today's type of engine scares the :censor: out of me!! Especially as I have a warranty on the car, I'd rather let the garage mess it up :P

Has any work been done prior to the fault occuring and if so what?

They supposedly fitted a new turbo unit under warranty about 4 weeks ago?!?

When you get the problem does it turn over faster and faster as described or does it just start and run perfectly.

No - when it fails to start, it almost feels like the Battery is dead and cannot turn over the engine properly. Leaving it for approx 1 hour and it starts perfect.

Have you noticed if it does it more on a slope or on level ground or both? If on a slope which way is worse as fuel will run away from the engine more when it is facing uphill. Is this the case?

Both - at home the car is parked facing down on a sloping drive (approx 20deg angle) - at work it is on the level and the fault occurs at both locations.

Did you try cleaning the connection to the fuel cut off solenoid?

No not yet - have been busy at theatre all last week doing the lighting for the annual panto! (oh yes I have! :P ) but actually have a night to myself tonight - so will venture out and have a play.......

[anchorman]

When you get the problem does it turn over faster and faster as described or does it just start and run perfectly.

No - when it fails to start, it almost feels like the Battery is dead and cannot turn over the engine properly. Leaving it for approx 1 hour and it starts perfect.

Phil

The answer to your problem is lurking here somewhere.

However, to conclude what is causing it you need to now answer the following.

When operating normally, does the engine run hotter than expected, i.e. does the temperature gauge show "normal" the whole time or higher? If the answer to this is higher then your engine is terminally ill and it is tightening up when hot. Only major surgery will cure it!

If the answer is no then I can give you a 95% assurance that it merely needs a new starter motor. The reason is that when it gets hot there is either a problem with a pair of brushes (if it is a four brush design) or the resistance in the windings is changing with temperature. You can test it by removing the starter and clamping it in a vice. Use a pair of jump leads and connect the negative terminal of a Battery to the body of the starter. Bridge together the solenoid wire and the starter positive wire then use a good quality ammeter to connect the positive on the Battery (first) and then the bridged leads above. Be sure not to touch any part of the starter body or it will cause a massive spark and you will need new underware. The ammeter should show around 190 amps when the motor operates. Do NOT try to do the test without removing the starter. This process is shown in the Toyota manual which is on their website.

Alternatively, be sure to explain the symptom that you described about it being sluggish when hot and let them do it at Toyota if it is covered by warranty. They should agree with this diagnosis and do it for you.

If not you can confidently do it yourself.

Regards

PS. The other 5% relies upon you being confident in the fact that your battery and HT leads are in good order. If not get them tested at an auto electrician/Toyota.

[pips]

Well - eventually I had a call from the dealer today who are going to sort out my car tomorrow - and provide a free courtesy car too!!!

I spoke to Toyota GB to chase up what was happening as I hadn't heard anything from either them or the dealer. They had contacted the dealer and told them to get it sorted.....

So I will let you know the outcome of it all.

Thanks anchorman for all your advice - I shall print it off and give it to the mechanic (just in-case he hasn't got a clue!!! :P )

Phil

[anchorman]

Any news Phil?

[pips]

Any news Phil?

Hi,

Not had a proper test in it yet, so can't say 100% for certain...... They replaced the starter motor (just like you thought) and I must say it certainly seems to turn the engine over a lot quicker than before :)

When I took the car in, I gave it a damn good run up the motorway, so when I arrived at the dealers, the head mechanic came out, then also came for a run in it and when I switched it off it refused to start.....

So fingers crossed, they got it sorted (eventually).

Thanks for all your advise on it :)

Am just renewing my hobby of CB Radio (had one in the 80s when I was at school) as we are off to Le Mans in June for the 24hr race - and plan to be going in convoy. My rav will have the rear seats removed, and filled to the top with camping gear - so this should be a nice run for it!!

Cheers, Phil

[anchorman]

Any news Phil?

Hi,

Not had a proper test in it yet, so can't say 100% for certain...... They replaced the starter motor (just like you thought) and I must say it certainly seems to turn the engine over a lot quicker than before :)

When I took the car in, I gave it a damn good run up the motorway, so when I arrived at the dealers, the head mechanic came out, then also came for a run in it and when I switched it off it refused to start.....

So fingers crossed, they got it sorted (eventually).

Thanks for all your advise on it :)

Am just renewing my hobby of CB Radio (had one in the 80s when I was at school) as we are off to Le Mans in June for the 24hr race - and plan to be going in convoy. My rav will have the rear seats removed, and filled to the top with camping gear - so this should be a nice run for it!!

Hi Pips

Is it cured?

Regards

PS Is there somebody on the other end of a CB these days!!!

Cheers, Phil

[pips]

Hi Pips

Is it cured?

Regards

PS Is there somebody on the other end of a CB these days!!!

Cheers, Phil

It appears to be - although I've only done local runs with it as I have been in the office most of the time :(

I could do with taking it up the motorway again to test it properly.......

CB Radio - Well in the 80's everyman and his dog had one! Everyone at school had one, so we'd all tune in at 6pm and we'd take it in turns to broadcast our homework answers! :D

I've had it on a couple of times recently, and there is virtually no-one on at all - but the main reason for me getting it is so we can keep in touch when travelling to LeMans in June as we're going in two cars - it'll be a lot cheaper than using the mobile phones!

Cheers,

Phil

[ScottyBlue]

I have exactly the same problem with my 2002 D4D, down to the last detail! I have been quoted just under £300 for a new starter (fitted) by Mr T but can get one on the Internet for £175. However I have never worked on this engine before so can anyone provide a brief procedure for the replacement (just in case there are any little quirks I should be aware of.)

[Parts-King]

I've got an intermittent starting problem. Basically if the engine is stone cold, then it starts (albeit a little bit sluggish). When I've been on a run of approx 20-30 miles and the engine is at normal temp, then the engine is stopped. It won't (usually) start again either until it's cold or a booster battery is connected to the battery.

Initially I thought it was battery problem, so replaced it with a Bosch Silver Technology Battery (on the Monday).

Everything seemed okay until the Friday morning when I dropped my parents off at Manchester Airport. I had driven 19miles on motorway then stopped the engine and it just wouldn't start again.

The battery doesn't appear to be flat, as it cranks the engine over. The RAC came out (very impressed in the 11minutes waiting time!!) connected the jump leads to his tranny van and it burst into life.

The battery connection to the chassis was cleaned and also an extra long lead was connected from the chassis battery point to the engine block.

This has improved things slightly, but not fully.

So the Rav went in to Mr T today.......... guess what...? yep, they "can't find anything wrong with the car" - now there's a surprise!

I told the "techie" at Mr T that I wasn't imagining the fault - but unless they can simulate the problem, they can't repair the fault. They won't even take my or the RAC guy's word that it's the starter!

So, what does anyone else think it could be?

Cheers,

Phil

Personally I think you have a problem with the SCV (solenoid cut off valve) on the fuel pump. I have sold a few in the past, does give this type of fault. They are not on the parts catalogue as they only used to come with a pump. You can buy them for about £70 a pair (there are two) You need to get you dealer to look up the part numbers on a service bulletin or buy from me, lol, Kingo

[4raver]

Just an idea here...you said that you had a new Turbo fitted four weeks ago...was the car running fine before this was fitted.

[anchorman]

I've got an intermittent starting problem. Basically if the engine is stone cold, then it starts (albeit a little bit sluggish). When I've been on a run of approx 20-30 miles and the engine is at normal temp, then the engine is stopped. It won't (usually) start again either until it's cold or a booster battery is connected to the battery.

Initially I thought it was battery problem, so replaced it with a Bosch Silver Technology Battery (on the Monday).

Everything seemed okay until the Friday morning when I dropped my parents off at Manchester Airport. I had driven 19miles on motorway then stopped the engine and it just wouldn't start again.

The battery doesn't appear to be flat, as it cranks the engine over. The RAC came out (very impressed in the 11minutes waiting time!!) connected the jump leads to his tranny van and it burst into life.

The battery connection to the chassis was cleaned and also an extra long lead was connected from the chassis battery point to the engine block.

This has improved things slightly, but not fully.

So the Rav went in to Mr T today.......... guess what...? yep, they "can't find anything wrong with the car" - now there's a surprise!

I told the "techie" at Mr T that I wasn't imagining the fault - but unless they can simulate the problem, they can't repair the fault. They won't even take my or the RAC guy's word that it's the starter!

So, what does anyone else think it could be?

Cheers,

Phil

Personally I think you have a problem with the SCV (solenoid cut off valve) on the fuel pump. I have sold a few in the past, does give this type of fault. They are not on the parts catalogue as they only used to come with a pump. You can buy them for about £70 a pair (there are two) You need to get you dealer to look up the part numbers on a service bulletin or buy from me, lol, Kingo

I do too. What will fitting a new starter achieve if the one on it cranks the engine OK?

[ajstars]

Interesting - My Rav D4D 2002 model is also playing up.

It fails to start on a random basis - sometimes every day other times once a week! There seems to be no rhym or reason - somethimes when hot sometimes when cold, sometimes when parked level, sometimes when on a hill.

It always starts 4th time though.

The starter does not turn the engine amazingly fast and it does not appear to speed up the more I try it. However, I have no other diesel to compare this to.

The glow plug light goes off after about 2 seconds.

Toyota spent 3 hours looking at it, charged me for one of those at £98 and said there was nothing wrong with it, it started every time. Well, it did up until today.

I have the extended warranty, but am getting fed up having to pay for labour charges just to tell me it's okay.

I will try some of the tips above before I sell it I think.

[anchorman]

Interesting - My Rav D4D 2002 model is also playing up.

It fails to start on a random basis - sometimes every day other times once a week! There seems to be no rhym or reason - somethimes when hot sometimes when cold, sometimes when parked level, sometimes when on a hill.

It always starts 4th time though.

The starter does not turn the engine amazingly fast and it does not appear to speed up the more I try it. However, I have no other diesel to compare this to.

The glow plug light goes off after about 2 seconds.

Toyota spent 3 hours looking at it, charged me for one of those at £98 and said there was nothing wrong with it, it started every time. Well, it did up until today.

I have the extended warranty, but am getting fed up having to pay for labour charges just to tell me it's okay.

I will try some of the tips above before I sell it I think.

Does it do it hot and cold?

If so next time it won't start lift the bonnet and pump the plunger on top of the fuel filter. It should be hard to pump but if it is easy, keep pumping until it goes hard then see if it will start. If it does the fuel is running back to the tank (it should be prevented from doing so by a non-return valve). In this case it may require a new filter head but please report back your findings as I will double check that the valve is not located elswhere.

Cheers

[ajstars]

Okay thanks for that - I will try to find it so I dont have to ferrett around next time it plays up.

It seems to do it more when cold, but has also done it when hot after having been left for an hour or so.

Thanks