Flywheel Problem

[IanS]

My RAV4 is coming up to 4 years old, 49,800 miles, bought new from local dealer and regularly serviced by him. I'm now told I need a new flywheel. On trawling round the internet and registering on your website it seems this is a well-known problem, but one that Toyota pretends doesn't exist.

I've called Toyota's customer services department twice to point out to them that it appears that they have produced an engine part that is "not fit for purpose". Their stock answer was "these things happen" and, in any case I could/should have taken out an extended warranty - a good idea if you're blessed with hindsight. The second person at Toyota gave me the phone number of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. The person there seemed unable or unwilling to acknowledge the problem, was unhelpful and practically hostile and I got the same reaction as before.

It seems Toyota are determined to ignore the problem of flywheel breakage which is an odd reaction from a company that boasts about the reliability and quality of its vehicles. I note that a few of your members are considering court action. They need to bear in mind that Toyota, with their considerable resources, can afford the top legal advice and would likely prevail. I think the only route to follow is sustained pressure from all of us sufferers in the hope this will convince Toyota of the error of their ways.

I was seriously considering buying one of the new RAV4's but I'm now rethinking - maybe the new Honda CRV or even the BMW X3 ( or !Removed! staff car, as Jeremy Clarkson would term it !) Sad that it may take action like this to make Toyota aware of their, so far, loyal customer base.

[Bones]

High profile sustained bad publicity is about the only thing that seems to galvanise these large corporations into any sort of action.

My advice to all you owners of suspect diesel models,wether it has gone bang yet or not,is to band together & make as big a fuss as you can possibly manage & get yourself some air time/column inches.

If a new model comes out & it is being promoted get in there & ruffle a few feathers.

[simon74]

Thanks for posting your issue with the flywheel and to everyone else that’s posted on the issue. I own a 03 RAV4 D4D bought from new in 2003 and since has done 50K miles with full Toyota service history. As its 3 years and 8 months after registration its outside the warranty.

After 50K miles I started hearing a rattle in the engine bay and took into a Toyota garage who came back with a bill of £2458.36! to replace the flywheel and clutch (is this price a record?). The garage asked Toyota customer services to extend the warranty on the flywheel which they refused. I spoke to customer services and they gave a “good will gesture” reducing the price to £1490.26. After several further telephone calls I hit a brick wall with Toyota customer services.

From reading other posts its obvious Toyota know there was a problem with the dual mass flywheel in a batch of RAV4 and avensis D4D cars. For some cars (up to 2002 I think) they extended the warranty to 80K miles and designed a “counter-measure” for cars produced from then on, including (supposedly) my car.

Toyota could have (and morally should have) extended the warranty on the flywheel for all D4D cars to 80K miles as its clear their counter measure doesn’t work and their design is at fault (the number of people reporting the fault and the size of the bill to repair the fault after such as short period of ownership should result in an extended warranty).

I’ve looked into the Sale of Goods act, but I’m unclear how this would apply, and you have to take the garage you bought the car from to court not the manufacturer. So I agree legal action looks unlikely.

If anyone else has a similar problem I would encourage them to post to this site and perhaps we could contact Watch Dog, trading standards office, Which? or some other consumer rights organisation.

Honda CRV here I come.

Simon

[IanS]

Thanks for posting your issue with the flywheel and to everyone else that’s posted on the issue. I own a 03 RAV4 D4D bought from new in 2003 and since has done 50K miles with full Toyota service history. As its 3 years and 8 months after registration its outside the warranty.

After 50K miles I started hearing a rattle in the engine bay and took into a Toyota garage who came back with a bill of £2458.36! to replace the flywheel and clutch (is this price a record?). The garage asked Toyota customer services to extend the warranty on the flywheel which they refused. I spoke to customer services and they gave a “good will gesture” reducing the price to £1490.26. After several further telephone calls I hit a brick wall with Toyota customer services.

From reading other posts its obvious Toyota know there was a problem with the dual mass flywheel in a batch of RAV4 and avensis D4D cars. For some cars (up to 2002 I think) they extended the warranty to 80K miles and designed a “counter-measure” for cars produced from then on, including (supposedly) my car.

Toyota could have (and morally should have) extended the warranty on the flywheel for all D4D cars to 80K miles as its clear their counter measure doesn’t work and their design is at fault (the number of people reporting the fault and the size of the bill to repair the fault after such as short period of ownership should result in an extended warranty).

I’ve looked into the Sale of Goods act, but I’m unclear how this would apply, and you have to take the garage you bought the car from to court not the manufacturer. So I agree legal action looks unlikely.

If anyone else has a similar problem I would encourage them to post to this site and perhaps we could contact Watch Dog, trading standards office, Which? or some other consumer rights organisation.

Honda CRV here I come.

Simon

I agree completely with your comments. As I said I doubt we'd get far trying to take Toyota to court and they'd not admit to having produced a part that is "not fit for purpose", though this is undoubtedly the case. As you say we probably need to enlist the aid of groups like Watchdog, Trading Standards, Which and the like. They might be able to get hard information on the number of failures and how long the problem has existed , etc. Contact me if you think we could progress matters. My RAV goes in April 9 so I'll let you know what the horrendous bill comes to ! Like you, a Honda CRV is looking more and more likely.

[anchorman]

You should all meet outside Toyotas factory at Burnaston. There is a wide approach road which you can parade up and down. Tell What Car, Auto Express and BBC Radio Derby what you are doing and you will get all the publicity you want.

Charging £1500 pounds as a gesture of goodwill is a joke and they are still making a profit just not such a scandalous one.

Don't accept it. This is not the kind of treatment for loyal trusting customers and the warranty should be valid for life (at least 10 years) as you would expect for any other vehicle. These flywheels are not even lasting as long as a clutch and that is supposed to be the wearing part. We are not talking about an exhaust or a set of pads or a light bulb, the kind of things we expect to have to change.

Come on Toyota get real - I know you are following this. Put these customers vehicles right, they were produced with sub standard parts and you know it.

Guys. If you want me to turn up say when.

Good luck

[chatman]

You should all meet outside Toyotas factory at Burnaston. There is a wide approach road which you can parade up and down. Tell What Car, Auto Express and BBC Radio Derby what you are doing and you will get all the publicity you want.

Charging £1500 pounds as a gesture of goodwill is a joke and they are still making a profit just not such a scandalous one.

Don't accept it. This is not the kind of treatment for loyal trusting customers and the warranty should be valid for life (at least 10 years) as you would expect for any other vehicle. These flywheels are not even lasting as long as a clutch and that is supposed to be the wearing part. We are not talking about an exhaust or a set of pads or a light bulb, the kind of things we expect to have to change.

Come on Toyota get real - I know you are following this. Put these customers vehicles right, they were produced with sub standard parts and you know it.

Guys. If you want me to turn up say when.

Good luck

I second this.....

List of Woes

EGR Valves

Duel Mass Fly Wheels

Leaking Foot Wells

Leaking Sun Roofs

[anchorman]

You should all meet outside Toyotas factory at Burnaston. There is a wide approach road which you can parade up and down. Tell What Car, Auto Express and BBC Radio Derby what you are doing and you will get all the publicity you want.

Charging £1500 pounds as a gesture of goodwill is a joke and they are still making a profit just not such a scandalous one.

Don't accept it. This is not the kind of treatment for loyal trusting customers and the warranty should be valid for life (at least 10 years) as you would expect for any other vehicle. These flywheels are not even lasting as long as a clutch and that is supposed to be the wearing part. We are not talking about an exhaust or a set of pads or a light bulb, the kind of things we expect to have to change.

Come on Toyota get real - I know you are following this. Put these customers vehicles right, they were produced with sub standard parts and you know it.

Guys. If you want me to turn up say when.

Good luck

I second this.....

List of Woes

EGR Valves

Duel Mass Fly Wheels

Leaking Foot Wells

Leaking Sun Roofs

Unquantified NCAP result for pre modified vehicles (over 30000 of them) :censor:

[pmb]

It's worth doing a google on dual mass flywheel failure as it is something that affects more than the Avensis and Rav4.

Also worth a look on the Avensis forum.

[anchorman]

It's worth doing a google on dual mass flywheel failure as it is something that affects more than the Avensis and Rav4.

Also worth a look on the Avensis forum.

That is true - no doubt DMF's have evolved but who should put it right? If you spend this amount of money on a vehicle the last thing you expect is flywheel failure. Toyota have now addressed the problem but are making owners pay for the repair. They should throw it back at the manufacturer but in consumer law the contract exists between the owner and Toyota. In all these cases a test of reasonableness applies and just over 3 years is not reasonable for this kind of component.

[Steve@Aberdeen]

That is true - no doubt DMF's have evolved but who should put it right? If you spend this amount of money on a vehicle the last thing you expect is flywheel failure. Toyota have now addressed the problem but are making owners pay for the repair. They should throw it back at the manufacturer but in consumer law the contract exists between the owner and Toyota. In all these cases a test of reasonableness applies and just over 3 years is not reasonable for this kind of component.

Don't you mean between the owner and the dealer. My understanding of contract and consumer law is that the seller is responsible for the quality of the goods - it's then up to the dealer to take it up with the manufacturer. The main exception to this (setting aside the situation of factors, brokers and agents) is in respect of safety - the manufacturer (if within the EU) or the importer (if the goods have been manufactured outwith the EU) has an absolute duty of care. Unless the flywheel issue affects safety, I'm not aware of any legal recourse to Toyota - notwithstanding, they may respond to pressure in order to maintain their reputation.

The "limp-home" issue could be argued as a safety concern and, thus, Toyota's responsibility (although the part of Toyota that imported the vehicle into the EU from Japan).

$0.02 from a not-a-lawyer.

[anchorman]

That is true - no doubt DMF's have evolved but who should put it right? If you spend this amount of money on a vehicle the last thing you expect is flywheel failure. Toyota have now addressed the problem but are making owners pay for the repair. They should throw it back at the manufacturer but in consumer law the contract exists between the owner and Toyota. In all these cases a test of reasonableness applies and just over 3 years is not reasonable for this kind of component.

Don't you mean between the owner and the dealer. My understanding of contract and consumer law is that the seller is responsible for the quality of the goods - it's then up to the dealer to take it up with the manufacturer. The main exception to this (setting aside the situation of factors, brokers and agents) is in respect of safety - the manufacturer (if within the EU) or the importer (if the goods have been manufactured outwith the EU) has an absolute duty of care. Unless the flywheel issue affects safety, I'm not aware of any legal recourse to Toyota - notwithstanding, they may respond to pressure in order to maintain their reputation.

The "limp-home" issue could be argued as a safety concern and, thus, Toyota's responsibility (although the part of Toyota that imported the vehicle into the EU from Japan).

$0.02 from a not-a-lawyer.

Quite right Steve

It was a figure of speech in saying Toyota. The agent or dealer only acts for Toyota but in my little tantrum I generalised a bit.

The dealer will only do what Toyota tells them and in my opinion it These DMF's are failing prematurely.

It's a bit like buying a new house and in 3 years time you might expect to need to paint it but you don't expect to need to change the roof.

If you get my drift.........

[simon74]

Does anyone know if the new range of D4D RAV4s have the same dual mass flywheel design as the last model?

Obviously if the new RAV4 has a different design I think Toyota will just hope the problem goes away over time and the customers of the old model just pay the price of the repair (although having sold thousands of the old model the problem is still huge). But if toyota are selling new cars today that have a badly designed flywheel and they know it will fail long before it should do, I think this is outrageous.

The list of Woes above is very interesting as I've had the sunroof replaced and the flywheel problem already. I'll look forward to ERG values and leaking footwells adding to my joy of owning a toyota.

My current plan is to highlight the flywheel problem to as many organisations as I can. I think it is too late for my car (and my bank balance) but the toyota customer services department is shocking and they are committing daylight robbery.

[anchorman]

Does anyone know if the new range of D4D RAV4s have the same dual mass flywheel design as the last model?

Obviously if the new RAV4 has a different design I think Toyota will just hope the problem goes away over time and the customers of the old model just pay the price of the repair (although having sold thousands of the old model the problem is still huge). But if toyota are selling new cars today that have a badly designed flywheel and they know it will fail long before it should do, I think this is outrageous.

The list of Woes above is very interesting as I've had the sunroof replaced and the flywheel problem already. I'll look forward to ERG values and leaking footwells adding to my joy of owning a toyota.

My current plan is to highlight the flywheel problem to as many organisations as I can. I think it is too late for my car (and my bank balance) but the toyota customer services department is shocking and they are committing daylight robbery.

I would hope that the flywheel is redesigned but I cant be sure. I believe there were some similar issues with Avensis but whether this relates to the 2.2 diesels I dont know. I suppose to some extent it may depend on how they are driven. The torque to the flywheel face is effectively transmitted from the crankshaft via a set of annular springs to absorb shock and protect the transmission. Rough use of the clutch or towing would impose extra load.

We'll see.

[Ringo I]

[Avalon]

I know before I got my Toyota approved used RAV from the dealer they had replaced both the clutch and fly wheel as part of a Warranty/service inspection before I got near it. They also did the belts after they started to squeek in the winter (some 7 months later). I only know this as i'd read up on here and asked them specifically about it.

[gemma]

My fly wheel and clutch went at 13,000 miles in 2002 (had car 6 months) and duly got both replaced. Spoke with lawyers who handled cases where an obvious design error/defect was considered "lack of ability to drive" and was advised to suck the £1800 cost as I wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys. This was replaced at a Toyota garage so now (last week) at 60,000 miles, the clutch has gone and the fly wheel needs replacing, I read that it seems to be a common problem. But Toyota seem to have the same atttitude.

I am not bothering to bring this up with Toyota, they were very rude last time but I hoped the last expense solved the problem (am assuming Toyota replaced with the same type). Am ditching the brand and am off to spend my hard earned cash on someone else.

Customer Service is always key - something that Toyota seem to have forgotten about

gem

[SteveR.]

My fly wheel and clutch went at 13,000 miles in 2002 (had car 6 months) and duly got both replaced.

[...] was advised to suck the £1800 cost as I wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys.

Ouch! Sounds like it was a new car - why wasn't it covered under warranty?

[gemma]

My fly wheel and clutch went at 13,000 miles in 2002 (had car 6 months) and duly got both replaced.

[...] was advised to suck the £1800 cost as I wouldn't stand a chance against the big boys.

Ouch! Sounds like it was a new car - why wasn't it covered under warranty?

You would think wouldn't you hence the speaking to a lawyer. Toyota told me that it was because I didn't understand how to use a clutch... apparently if you drive like a **** you can achieve the same effect and you cannot prove either way who is at fault. Did a massive amount of research at the time, but found nothing online at the time. Funny now there is so much more information.... anyone would think there was a nation of Toyota drivers who are unable to operate their vehicles.

[SteveR.]

You would think wouldn't you hence the speaking to a lawyer. Toyota told me that it was because I didn't understand how to use a clutch

Amazing - certainly doesn't sound fit for purpose if it can be broken that easily within such a short space of time :(

[Steve@Aberdeen]

Years ago when I first owned cars, it was normal to need to replace the clutch somewhere between 50k and 100k miles. It wasn't too big a deal with RWD cars - lift it up, disconnect prop shaft, unbolt the bell housing and drop the gearbox - maybe a two hour job. I recall being a bit concerned as FWD cars became the norm, especially as I'd switched to diesels - now there's a muckle engine block to lift out - not so easy to do in a normal domestic garage of an evening.

Strangely, I've never had to get a clutch replaced on a FWD - my cars regularly approach 100k miles by the time I sell and, even when I've hung onto one longer (when my ex-wife used to get my cars at ~80k and run them to ~120k) still no clutch issues; I know she was hard on the clutch in her cars (almost always held her car on the clutch when stationary on a hill - lights, junctions, etc) but the clutches took it all in their stride. The clutch was no longer a serviced item - it lasted for life (or at least for the first 150,000 miles).

It's ironic that the clutch seems to be heading back to being a routine service item - perhaps it's the penalty as our diesels are getting far more powerful.

[anchorman]

now there's a muckle engine block to lift out

A what engine block to lift out Steve!!???

Has mine got one of those? :P

[Steve@Aberdeen]

now there's a muckle engine block to lift out

A what engine block to lift out Steve!!???

Has mine got one of those? :P

I probably should have typed "muckle great" but that sound's tautological to me - a big lump!

[dave.m]

Muckle ?

Tell you what steve, from a non doric speaking scotsman, I allways thought muckle means big.

For example Muckle Flugga meaning Big Flugga, I believe that is an island on the west coast.

(this forum is really educational).

Cheers.

Dave.

[SteveR.]

I allways thought muckle means big. For example Muckle Flugga meaning Big Flugga

Lots of places around here with "Meikle" in their names, I've always assumed "muckle" was a corruption of that. The Muckle Cross in Elgin has a big selection of beers with big discounts compared with other pubs, so that pretty much proves that "muckle" means "big" :)

[anchorman]

"There can be only one" guys. I'll just try running this lot through google translate.

Down on this side of the wall we have another way of emphasising big but I'm not allowed to say it here.

I used to get involved in testing brakes on trucks up there and Mr Yuill knows what I'm talking about ans so does Mr French.

Regards