Rav 4d Xtr 2006.

[Gerry 2]

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

[gwilphil]

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

There is only one polish for a black Rav its Meguiare gold class give it a go

[Steve@Aberdeen]

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

My XT4 D4-D had its first service last month and cost £130. I reckon that routine servicing at the dealer will cost about the same (or perhaps slightly less) than I'll spend on tyres over the same mileage - so I don't see £130 as a big deal. It could have been cheaper at a local garage but, having trusted a dealer and spent ~£22k on a car, I'd just as soon trust them with a few extra bob for servicing it.

The only time I ever used a fuel additive was over 20 years ago and on an older car - used it to try and clean out injectors which I suspected were sticking; it seemed to work and saved a packet than having to take them to a diesel specialist. Other than that, I've stayed away. If the likes of Shell and BP can't get their fuels blended right, I doubt a bottle of a third party chemicals added with limited control of concentration will actually improve anything - even less chance of it being any use in a new engine unless it's part of the manufacturers service schedule (and I'm not aware of that being so for any current mass produced car). I suspect I'm not the only one wondering what your dealer says it's for - did you ask?

I'm also intrigued why you had a service at 6000 miles - my service log says 10k.

[Gerry 2]

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

There is only one polish for a black Rav its Meguiare gold class give it a go

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

There is only one polish for a black Rav its Meguiare gold class give it a go

Thanks Phil, I will try 'Meguiare gold class' if I can locate it!

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

My XT4 D4-D had its first service last month and cost £130. I reckon that routine servicing at the dealer will cost about the same (or perhaps slightly less) than I'll spend on tyres over the same mileage - so I don't see £130 as a big deal. It could have been cheaper at a local garage but, having trusted a dealer and spent ~£22k on a car, I'd just as soon trust them with a few extra bob for servicing it.

The only time I ever used a fuel additive was over 20 years ago and on an older car - used it to try and clean out injectors which I suspected were sticking; it seemed to work and saved a packet than having to take them to a diesel specialist. Other than that, I've stayed away. If the likes of Shell and BP can't get their fuels blended right, I doubt a bottle of a third party chemicals added with limited control of concentration will actually improve anything - even less chance of it being any use in a new engine unless it's part of the manufacturers service schedule (and I'm not aware of that being so for any current mass produced car). I suspect I'm not the only one wondering what your dealer says it's for - did you ask?

I'm also intrigued why you had a service at 6000 miles - my service log says 10k.

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

There is only one polish for a black Rav its Meguiare gold class give it a go

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

There is only one polish for a black Rav its Meguiare gold class give it a go

Thanks Phil, I will try 'Meguiare gold class' if I can locate it!

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

My XT4 D4-D had its first service last month and cost £130. I reckon that routine servicing at the dealer will cost about the same (or perhaps slightly less) than I'll spend on tyres over the same mileage - so I don't see £130 as a big deal. It could have been cheaper at a local garage but, having trusted a dealer and spent ~£22k on a car, I'd just as soon trust them with a few extra bob for servicing it.

The only time I ever used a fuel additive was over 20 years ago and on an older car - used it to try and clean out injectors which I suspected were sticking; it seemed to work and saved a packet than having to take them to a diesel specialist. Other than that, I've stayed away. If the likes of Shell and BP can't get their fuels blended right, I doubt a bottle of a third party chemicals added with limited control of concentration will actually improve anything - even less chance of it being any use in a new engine unless it's part of the manufacturers service schedule (and I'm not aware of that being so for any current mass produced car). I suspect I'm not the only one wondering what your dealer says it's for - did you ask?

I'm also intrigued why you had a service at 6000 miles - my service log says 10k.

Steve, the car is a year old. First sevice '10k or twelve months'.

Thanks for your info re-fuel additives...

[gwilphil]

Rang up dealer to ask about first service cost, they said £168.

I asked what they would do apart from change oil and filter. Well it seems it is just visual checks, that I do most days anyway--check lights, indicators, tyres, screen washers etc.

I told them I wouldn't pay seventy pounds an hour for checks that I do anyway. I got it down to £130.

I then got another ten quid off by not having additive added to fuel. (not sure of the wisdom of this) but I only had a couple of gallons of diesel in the tank so it didn't make much sense anyway.

They ticked all the check boxes, so presumably they did the checks anyway.

On the £120 bill was £5 for consumables--well my wife and I had a lovely cup of coffee each, served by an equally lovely young lady, so maybe this was a fair price ;-) but I suspect the fiver was something to do with the service. I am having difficulty in imagining what the said fiver could possibly be for---

Maybe I am just getting old and tight LOL.

A couple of questions. Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

What is best polish to use on a black car? I have tried different polishes without ever getting a great finish!

By the way it is a super motor---

Regards...

[SteveR.]

having trusted a dealer and spent ~£22k on a car, I'd just as soon trust them with a few extra bob for servicing it.

Frankly, Steve, I don't trust the dealers!

I wasn't happy with the discounts being offered by the dealers I contacted so I cast the net wider and was offered a much better deal. I got back in touch with the original dealers to give them a chance to revise their best offers, but instead they tried to frighten me off. They assured me that the price I had been offered was way too low and that, at that price, there must be something wrong with it: probably a grey import with a non-UK specification and/or some dodgy pre-registered deal. It isn't though, it's just from another UK main dealer who presumably has much larger volume sales and so can afford the deeper discounts.

If the locals had admitted that then, although I'd still have taken the lower deal, I'd have respected them and would be inclined to favour them when it came to deciding who to get to do the servicing. As it is, I can only conclude that one or other of the dealers is lying. That doesn't engender any form of automatic trust in main dealers, and I think Gerry's dealer asking 170 quid for little more than changing the oil & filter is simply taking the p*ss. The fact that they dropped the price by getting on for 25% when challenged doesn't suggest that their initial asking price is good value for money. Having discovered that you can't trust them not to load their prices, what can you trust?

[NMaria]

I have found with several marques that importers don't do much to control the quality of their dealerships. Volkswagen and Mitubishi didn't even reply to letters of complaint. You would hope that Toyota GB would ensure that the high standards of reliability, quality, value for money, etc. that they claim for their cars are backed up by the same from their dealers. But that does not seem to be the case. I wonder exactly what a garage has to do to prove itself worthy of a franchise, but perhaps it has more to do with showroom facilities than with technical skills and ethics.

One thing is for sure: a main dealer with an big glitzy showroom in a prime location is going to have to fund those facilities, and that is why you'll get cars much more cheaply on the Internet. Perhaps that was the case with your original dealer, SteveR; as you say, they should have been honest about it.

We have found that, when you buy a car, you go through two selection processes: first the car and then the dealer! We were severely disappointed with our local Toyota dealer for various reasons and ended up going to Alexander Wallace in Elgin (about 60 miles away) who seem to be honest and helpful. We have yet to see how good their workshop is, but we don't expect to be disappointed.

Identifying a good dealership is not easy, though. The reviews on this website are useful but incomplete. Toyota GB collect customer feedback information but I don't know if they publish it. Word of mouth seems to be the only way. I hope we will continue to be pleased with our current dealer, but if ever we change, I suppose I'll be asking people at work, or collaring people in the supermarket car park who happen to be getting out of Toyotas - or whatever kind of car I am considering at the time!

[SteveR.]

One thing is for sure: a main dealer with an big glitzy showroom in a prime location is going to have to fund those facilities, and that is why you'll get cars much more cheaply on the Internet. Perhaps that was the case with your original dealer, SteveR; as you say, they should have been honest about it.

That's what I assumed: it seems a bit unfair to use a dealer's facilities for viewing and for test drives, only to subsequently source it from someone on the internet who doesn't have to fund such facilities. That's not the case though. I did use a broker, but all they did is introduce me to a dealer who is able and willing to offer large discounts through them. The broker isn't even in the loop after the initial introduction, it's just a straightforward sale by a UK main dealer who also funds glitzy showrooms and test drives etc. As far as that sort of thing is concerned it seems a reasonably level playing field. Because of their higher turnover they are also able to supply more quickly, which also makes a difference for me (they say they can anyway; I'll find out soon enough if that was a hollow promise).

We were severely disappointed with our local Toyota dealer for various reasons and ended up going to Alexander Wallace in Elgin (about 60 miles away) who seem to be honest and helpful. We have yet to see how good their workshop is, but we don't expect to be disappointed.

They weren't the ones I was dealing with originally, and they're not the ones we found disappointing. I did visit them though and I was quite impressed by them too, actually. I'd be interested to hear how you find their servicing (by PM, if you like).

[Steve@Aberdeen]

When I said I trusted my dealer - that shouldn't imply trusting all car dealers! For me, the choice of dealer is as important as the choice of manufacturer. For many years I drove Citroens (four new cars in a row) because I had a dealer I could trust; the only reason I switched away from them was because I was looking for an SUV and Citroen didn't make one. I then went to Land Rover and had a Freelander for four years; the car was good - comfortable, reliable and just what I wanted - but the dealer let down the overall package.

When I bought a new car last year it came down to a choice between the Rav4 and CRV - there wasn't much between the cars (though I must admit I found the Rav4 the most comfortable) - the clincher was that the Toyota dealer impressed me more. [i should say that it wasn't the nearest Toyota dealer - they definitely didn't impress - not even in trying to sell; I went to a dealer a bit further away - not quite so convenient for servicing but one that impressed me].

[SteveR.]

For me, the choice of dealer is as important as the choice of manufacturer.

Fair enough. I don't feel quite the same way, but then I've usually had older cars and done my own servicing and maintenance. I guess that results in a different perspective and quite different priorities.

By the way, is there a disproportionately high number of members from Scotland in this forum? I'm new here and I don't know if there's a way to get a list of members. Having read through a number of the RAV4 threads, though, I've noticed a higher ratio of postings from these parts than I might have expected.

[bjw]

When I said I trusted my dealer - that shouldn't imply trusting all car dealers! For me, the choice of dealer is as important as the choice of manufacturer. For many years I drove Citroens (four new cars in a row) because I had a dealer I could trust; the only reason I switched away from them was because I was looking for an SUV and Citroen didn't make one. I then went to Land Rover and had a Freelander for four years; the car was good - comfortable, reliable and just what I wanted - but the dealer let down the overall package.

When I bought a new car last year it came down to a choice between the Rav4 and CRV - there wasn't much between the cars (though I must admit I found the Rav4 the most comfortable) - the clincher was that the Toyota dealer impressed me more. [i should say that it wasn't the nearest Toyota dealer - they definitely didn't impress - not even in trying to sell; I went to a dealer a bit further away - not quite so convenient for servicing but one that impressed me].

I could not agree more in that the choice of dealer is more important than the manufacturer I recently bought a new Toyota and after problems with Toyota GB regarding an issue I had with my previous car the only reason I purchased a Toyota was the excellent service I had received over the years from my dealer! if the dealer had have been poor I would not of bought a Toyota as I was disgusted with Toyota GB and there arrogant attitude to there customers.

Regarding Dealers having fancy showrooms I also bought my new car through a broker and all dealing were with a main Toyota dealer through there fleet department and the strange thing is it was from a dealer were I had tried to do a deal with previously but they would not match what I wanted I went through a car broker and made a substantial saving

[NMaria]

We tried several internet brokers too but found that the savings were offset by a poor part-exchange deal. Perhaps it is the way to go if you don't have an old car to trade in.

Incidentally, I believe that Toyota's warranties don't compel you to stick with Toyota dealers; if you are happy with the workshop services of a different dealer, you can go to them for servicing. Of course, they would not specialise in Toyota cars so you might not get the technical expertise that you expect from a Toyota dealer, but to be honest, that expertise seems to be sadly lacking in some cases, anyway.

[SteveR.]

the choice of dealer is more important than the manufacturer

That rather implies that, having found a dealer that you like, you'll just select something from whatever they can offer when you next change your car. That's not the way most people choose a vehicle.

the strange thing is it was from a dealer were I had tried to do a deal with previously but they would not match what I wanted I went through a car broker and made a substantial saving

Yep, that seems to be the way it works. And they could presumably have saved a commission by offering you the discount directly, too. Weird, isn't it? And the savings certainly are substantial.

[SteveR.]

savings were offset by a poor part-exchange deal. Perhaps it is the way to go if you don't have an old car to trade in.

That's the case here. Well, we do have a car that we could p/ex but it would fetch so little that it wasn't worth considering. I'll keep it for running around the fields and perhaps treat it as a restoration project :)

I believe that Toyota's warranties don't compel you to stick with Toyota dealers; if you are happy with the workshop services of a different dealer, you can go to them for servicing.

When I started looking around, a number of dealers boasted that they "don't hold a gun to your head" when it comes to servicing and warranties, and merely require servicing to be carried-out by a bona fide VAT-registered garage, to the recommended schedule, and that they use genuine parts. Most tried to pass it off as altruism, but a few were honest enough to mention that this is due to a change in the law (EU, I think) that forbids the "but it must be serviced by us" clause in warranties these days.

Of course, they would not specialise in Toyota cars so you might not get the technical expertise that you expect from a Toyota dealer, but to be honest, that expertise seems to be sadly lacking in some cases, anyway.

Oh dear, sounds like bad experience. I used to have a mobile mechanic tackle tasks that I didn't have the time/skill/nerve to tackle myself. He was a former Rolls Royce mechanic, and was willing and very able to work on all manner of vehicles. He grumbled about the various manufacturer-specific diagnostic tools he had to keep buying in order to be able to work on newer models, but I gather that there's a common protocol for such things now that makes things much easier for the independent outfits (no doubt also forced upon the manufacturers).

[bjw]

the choice of dealer is more important than the manufacturer

That rather implies that, having found a dealer that you like, you'll just select something from whatever they can offer when you next change your car. That's not the way most people choose a vehicle.

the strange thing is it was from a dealer were I had tried to do a deal with previously but they would not match what I wanted I went through a car broker and made a substantial saving

Yep, that seems to be the way it works. And they could presumably have saved a commission by offering you the discount directly, too. Weird, isn't it? And the savings certainly are substantial.

No that is not the case I would not buy a Toyota just because of the dealer I did look at Honda and Mazda before I bought again but the good service of the dealer , the deal I was offered, and the fact the car was suitable for my needs .But because I have a good relationship with the dealer it swung it.

Regarding part exchanges via a car broker the Toyota dealer agreed the price for my part exchange over the telephone luckily I was just 50 miles from the dealer I popped over to just confirm the price .the part exchange price was the same as other local Toyota dealers had offered and was more than the Honda dealers and at the end of the day it is always the cost to change that matters.

There are advantages having your car serviced by a Toyota dealer if you have a warranty claim(owners of old shape Avensis had problems with excessive oil consumption at 45,000 miles)you can prove the car has been serviced to there recommandations more easily as sometimes this claim came after 3 years

[SteveR.]

because I have a good relationship with the dealer it swung it.

That's fair enough, but the dealer tipping the balance is quite different from the dealer being more important than the manufacturer, if you see what I mean.

luckily I was just 50 miles from the dealer

Ah, now there you have an advantage: I'm more like 500 miles from the dealer

[Steve@Aberdeen]

because I have a good relationship with the dealer it swung it.

That's fair enough, but the dealer tipping the balance is quite different from the dealer being more important than the manufacturer, if you see what I mean.

At the end of the day, your contract is with the dealer, not the manufacturer.

I've worked many years advising companies in supply chain quality and the old adage "buy cheap, pay expensive" is all too often true. As a rule of thumb when helping to assess bids, be suspicious of anyone lower than the mean (the greater the apparent saving, the greater should be your suspicion) - they may be able to supply just what you want at the price offered but be sure you know exactly what you're getting. In a competitive market, few companies survive by quoting higher than necessary; by the same token, companies quoting very low may grab enough market share to make a profit but, if it's a product that requires a longer term commitment to service, they often disappear after a while as their business model hasn't included for the after-sales service.

Don't expect many showroom dealers to let you test drive their vehicles and then compete with an online supplier. The latter rely on the main dealers providing the demonstrators and after-sales service - they don't invest in that so don't need to pay for it. Personally, if a dealer has spent time helping me decide on what I want, providing test vehicles and other advice, I would consider it dishonest to go and buy cheap elsewhere. If you want to do that, tell the dealer at the start that you'll only buy if he matches a heavily discounted offer.

I buy a package - the car is part, the service is part. With that, I've found local dealers are usually better than the national chains. One of the latter couldn't provide a test drive vehicle when I wanted it because one of their sales staff needed to borrow it for the weekend - a local dealership was more than happy to oblige me (and got the sale - two cars, in fact, as I bought a new car for my wife at the same time).

[bjw]

because I have a good relationship with the dealer it swung it.

That's fair enough, but the dealer tipping the balance is quite different from the dealer being more important than the manufacturer, if you see what I mean.

At the end of the day, your contract is with the dealer, not the manufacturer.

I've worked many years advising companies in supply chain quality and the old adage "buy cheap, pay expensive" is all too often true. As a rule of thumb when helping to assess bids, be suspicious of anyone lower than the mean (the greater the apparent saving, the greater should be your suspicion) - they may be able to supply just what you want at the price offered but be sure you know exactly what you're getting. In a competitive market, few companies survive by quoting higher than necessary; by the same token, companies quoting very low may grab enough market share to make a profit but, if it's a product that requires a longer term commitment to service, they often disappear after a while as their business model hasn't included for the after-sales service.

Don't expect many showroom dealers to let you test drive their vehicles and then compete with an online supplier. The latter rely on the main dealers providing the demonstrators and after-sales service - they don't invest in that so don't need to pay for it. Personally, if a dealer has spent time helping me decide on what I want, providing test vehicles and other advice, I would consider it dishonest to go and buy cheap elsewhere. If you want to do that, tell the dealer at the start that you'll only buy if he matches a heavily discounted offer.

I buy a package - the car is part, the service is part. With that, I've found local dealers are usually better than the national chains. One of the latter couldn't provide a test drive vehicle when I wanted it because one of their sales staff needed to borrow it for the weekend - a local dealership was more than happy to oblige me (and got the sale - two cars, in fact, as I bought a new car for my wife at the same time).

I don't think you can compare buying a car with other products if a customer walks into a showroom and buys a car at full list price is it not the dealer who is being dishonest by not selling it at a lower price which he has sold one to another customer 10 minutes ago.

Take my deal I walked in the showroom I knew what my car was worth as a trade in and said if you will give me this deal I will buy the car today they were unable to do the deal so I left and contacted a car broker !the deal I wanted was arranged by the car broker at the same Group dealership(which I have used for many years and are a local family company) as I had previously went to. its dog eat dog in the motor trade if you are prepared to pay more for your car they will let you don't feel sorry for them as they also make money on your servicing you have done

[SteveR.]

At the end of the day, your contract is with the dealer, not the manufacturer.

Problems in the first three years should be sorted under warranty though, and that's with the manufacturer. But you're quite right about the contract being with the dealer (Sale of Goods Act, I think?). One of the factors I considered when opting for a dealer that's a long way away is what would happen if I were to end up with a "lemon" and wanted to reject it. It probably would make it more complicated.

Don't expect many showroom dealers to let you test drive their vehicles and then compete with an online supplier. The latter rely on the main dealers providing the demonstrators and after-sales service - they don't invest in that so don't need to pay for it. Personally, if a dealer has spent time helping me decide on what I want, providing test vehicles and other advice, I would consider it dishonest to go and buy cheap elsewhere. If you want to do that, tell the dealer at the start that you'll only buy if he matches a heavily discounted offer.

Yes, but...

We're not talking about an "online supplier". The internet was involved only in as much as it's the medium I used to communicate with the broker - it could just as easily have been the telephone and a copy of Yellow Pages. The supplier is a family-run UK Toyota dealer who does invest in showrooms, demonstrators etc. - just like the local guys.

Yes, I made use of the demonstrators from several dealers to help in deciding which car to choose. I didn't bother discussing prices beforehand because the way cars are sold in the UK means that the "list prices" are only a guide, you are expected to negotiate, and there's no point in going through that rigmarole before deciding which car you want. Or of course you could just accept the list price that the dealer initially quotes you, in which case he's going to somehow manage to keep a straight face until after you've left a deposit and left the showroom. It's a somewhat dishonest system, really.

Having put the RAV4 on my short-list I dropped in to another Toyota dealer to take a second glance at the car. I explained that I was just taking a peek to refresh my memory because I had in fact already had a test drive (albeit in a different model) from elsewhere. Surprisingly, the second dealer didn't say "well, feel free to have a look but you should feel honour-bound to buy from the dealer who has already given you a test drive". No, I was instead encouraged to have a drive of their demonstrator too. This is all fair enough because they hope that I will choose a Toyota, and that they will then be able to offer me a better overall package than the other guy and so win the business.

Once I chose the RAV4, I started talking prices. Just for asking for a discount, I was offered hundreds of pounds off of the price that they would have charged had I been naive enough not to ask. So the initial price is clearly hugely inflated. This second offer could have been a fair price (unlike the opening gambit) or just another try-on, so I decided to do some research and see what sort of prices others are charging - I'd do no less if I was just buying a year's insurance. When I found that some dealers are prepared to discount several hundreds of pounds lower than others, I got back to the local guys to give them a chance to improve their offers. Not to beat the best offer, or even necessarily to match it, but to get at least somewhere close, maybe negotiate something with a servicing package or whatever. They were unable or unwilling to do that, though, so I reluctantly took my business elsewhere.

If they were unwilling to take a smaller cut in order to get the business, that's their choice. If they were unable to do so becuase (as at least one of the locals claimed) that would mean selling at less than cost, then they must be getting a raw deal from the manufacturer. I feel sorry for them if that's the case, but not surry enough that I feel inclined to subsidise them to the tune of several hundred pounds. The problem is the system, not the customers who seek good value for their hard-earned money.

And if you want further evidence that the system is deeply flawed, you need look no further than bjw's experience: the same car, from the same dealer, but substantially cheaper for having got a broker to do the asking. Crazy, but it's not our system.

[llith]

As an example 18 months ago I bought a brand new 5dr XTR 4D4 through an internet broker for £16,900 which was £3,000 less than the list price .They also give 12 months tax and toyota club membership i.e RAC for 1 year in the deal . I had to go down to London to get it , 4hr train journey ,and a 6hr drive home .

This deal could not be matched by anyone , for example Fords of Winsford (car supermarket) were selling 12 month petrol versions with 10,000 on the clock for the same price.I did not even test drive the car

The only drawback is that you cannot part exchange , but I was lucky as my previous car was only worth £1,000 book and I sold it in an auction 3 months after I bought the RAV for £700.

When I need a service I simply book one through the Toyota website .

A few years ago people used to buy their cars on the continent , perhaps they still do ,because UK cars were so dear

Regards

llith

[bjw]

At the end of the day, your contract is with the dealer, not the manufacturer.

Problems in the first three years should be sorted under warranty though, and that's with the manufacturer. But you're quite right about the contract being with the dealer (Sale of Goods Act, I think?). One of the factors I considered when opting for a dealer that's a long way away is what would happen if I were to end up with a "lemon" and wanted to reject it. It probably would make it more complicated.

Don't expect many showroom dealers to let you test drive their vehicles and then compete with an online supplier. The latter rely on the main dealers providing the demonstrators and after-sales service - they don't invest in that so don't need to pay for it. Personally, if a dealer has spent time helping me decide on what I want, providing test vehicles and other advice, I would consider it dishonest to go and buy cheap elsewhere. If you want to do that, tell the dealer at the start that you'll only buy if he matches a heavily discounted offer.

Yes, but...

We're not talking about an "online supplier". The internet was involved only in as much as it's the medium I used to communicate with the broker - it could just as easily have been the telephone and a copy of Yellow Pages. The supplier is a family-run UK Toyota dealer who does invest in showrooms, demonstrators etc. - just like the local guys.

Yes, I made use of the demonstrators from several dealers to help in deciding which car to choose. I didn't bother discussing prices beforehand because the way cars are sold in the UK means that the "list prices" are only a guide, you are expected to negotiate, and there's no point in going through that rigmarole before deciding which car you want. Or of course you could just accept the list price that the dealer initially quotes you, in which case he's going to somehow manage to keep a straight face until after you've left a deposit and left the showroom. It's a somewhat dishonest system, really.

Having put the RAV4 on my short-list I dropped in to another Toyota dealer to take a second glance at the car. I explained that I was just taking a peek to refresh my memory because I had in fact already had a test drive (albeit in a different model) from elsewhere. Surprisingly, the second dealer didn't say "well, feel free to have a look but you should feel honour-bound to buy from the dealer who has already given you a test drive". No, I was instead encouraged to have a drive of their demonstrator too. This is all fair enough because they hope that I will choose a Toyota, and that they will then be able to offer me a better overall package than the other guy and so win the business.

Once I chose the RAV4, I started talking prices. Just for asking for a discount, I was offered hundreds of pounds off of the price that they would have charged had I been naive enough not to ask. So the initial price is clearly hugely inflated. This second offer could have been a fair price (unlike the opening gambit) or just another try-on, so I decided to do some research and see what sort of prices others are charging - I'd do no less if I was just buying a year's insurance. When I found that some dealers are prepared to discount several hundreds of pounds lower than others, I got back to the local guys to give them a chance to improve their offers. Not to beat the best offer, or even necessarily to match it, but to get at least somewhere close, maybe negotiate something with a servicing package or whatever. They were unable or unwilling to do that, though, so I reluctantly took my business elsewhere.

If they were unwilling to take a smaller cut in order to get the business, that's their choice. If they were unable to do so becuase (as at least one of the locals claimed) that would mean selling at less than cost, then they must be getting a raw deal from the manufacturer. I feel sorry for them if that's the case, but not surry enough that I feel inclined to subsidise them to the tune of several hundred pounds. The problem is the system, not the customers who seek good value for their hard-earned money.

And if you want further evidence that the system is deeply flawed, you need look no further than bjw's experience: the same car, from the same dealer, but substantially cheaper for having got a broker to do the asking. Crazy, but it's not our system.

Your comments are spot on and don't they say a fool and his money are easily parted

Also I think dealers work on a bonus system if they reach a target for sales they get extra cash from Toyota so if they sell at a loss they could make up in bonus payments

[SteveR.]

[A local dealer] assured me that the price I had been offered [elsewhere] was way too low and that, at that price, there must be something wrong with it: probably a grey import with a non-UK specification and/or some dodgy pre-registered deal.

Because of their higher turnover they are also able to supply more quickly, which also makes a difference for me (they say they can anyway; I'll find out soon enough if that was a hollow promise).

Thought I'd post an update for completeness...

The supplier was, just as they claimed, a genuine UK Toyota dealer - not an importer or anything remotely dodgy. They have showrooms and demonstrators, just like the others who quoted. Despite what I was categorically assured, the vehicle is not a foreign spec, a grey import, previously registered, or any of the other things that I was assured "must" be wrong with it at the price. It's a brand new UK-spec XT5 with a full warranty, exactly the same as one they would have have supplied.

My supplier was also able to supply it much more quickly, which was quite important to me. I was quoted 6-8 weeks by a local dealer, who told me that the 1-2 weeks that I was offered by the dealer I chose was "suspicious in itself". It was, in fact, ready as promised within a fortnight of ordering.

So, there we are. One dealer was assuring me that all was above board, the other was assuring me it couldn't possibly be. Had I heeded the Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt that was being sown, I'd have another 4-6 weeks to wait for my new car and I'd have paid more than a thousand pounds extra for the privilege.

The only downside is that, having opted to go and collect the car myself rather than having it delivered (took the opportunity to make a mini break out of it) I've picked up a few stone chips on the way home :( Still, I guess they're inevitable, and I'm sure they won't be the last ones I'll collect!

[Uncle Bob]

Do I need to use fuel additive? I have done 6,000 miles.

Regards...

Back to your earlier question, you don't need a fuel additives or engine flush in you Toyotaengine , its a rip off by some dealers to make a few extra quid out of you .

To give a comparison, my father has a 2004 1.6 Corolla, and had his car serviced by a south east London Toyota dealership, they charged him for fuel additive and engine flush on a car that have only done 12000, and also said all his brake pads needed changing (i took a look at them less than half worn ! ), so in my opinion that is the wideboy side of main dealers.

On the other hand i use a Toyota dealer in mid Kent, they give great service and they don't believe in additive or flushes , they do the service work while i wait at a pre arranged time, and give me 10% discount as a TOC member...can't be bad .