Mpg

[anchorman]

Well my word.

I've never heard such offensive comment.

So let me defend me and Duncs for a bit. (Duncs and me for the posh).

You can't relate stories about what happened in BR days because the best thing that ever happened to that organisation was ending it. I'm surprised the wagons were ever found and not converted into garden sheds (as many were). It was funny that most BR employees had blue and yellow houses and not that they were stuck for time to paint them because they were either off sick or on strike. In those days they only needed to be able to walk on their back legs to get a job on the railway (and if somebody's dad was a BR man I didn't mean him).

But just about every company is performing at better than 90%ppm (public performance measure) which means that 90% of trains arrive at their destination within 5 minutes of the scheduled time. There are no figures for the other 10% but most are only a few minutes more. Now for anybody that travels on a Sunday things might be a bit different because that is the time when Network Rail men sit in their van playing cards and sign forms to say they have looked at all the points in their area. The tracks have to be closed in case a NR man accidentally lets the Sunday Sport blow out of his hand and has to run onto the track to fetch it.

Every weekday morning we carry hundreds and hundreds of people from Buxton to Manchester and a lot of them stand shoulder to shoulder to somebody with a phone playing pinky type or an ipod tinkling away and you know how I feel about that. So why do they tolerate it?

Because it takes 1 hour and by road it takes nearer 3.

So there.

[shcm]

Well my word.

I've never heard such offensive comment.

I'm not getting at the the people that have to implement the public transport, they do a sterling job (I mean that) in sometimes difficult circumstances. I just don't think it is thought out or invested in properly to get people out of their cars (If the powers that be really want that to happen). Admittedly getting several systems to join up is a non-trivial problem, probably with no optimal solution.

Round here they've been talking about a metro (tram) system for probably 20 years. So far they have one line between Brum and Wolverhampton. It's a start, but the rest should have been in years ago IMHO. Some of the proposed new line routes seem slightly "half-cocked" to me.

Anyway, don't get me started....... ;), and with trams, we're nearly back to trains..... :D

[Fujisan]

I'm not getting at the the people that have to implement the public transport, they do a sterling job (I mean that) in sometimes difficult circumstances. I just don't think it is thought out or invested in properly to get people out of their cars (If the powers that be really want that to happen). Admittedly getting several systems to join up is a non-trivial problem, probably with no optimal solution.

In Manchester, after they deregulated the Buses, it has turned into a farcical situation where on the most profitable routes, three or four buses from different bus companies can all turn up at the same bus stop, at the same time, fighting for the same passengers.

You are undoubtably right, for public transport to work, it needs a coordinated strategy.

[anchorman]

Ah well now you have strayed onto another sore point and that is GB doesn't want a fully integrated transport system despite the claims of the deranged idiot and that is because of the amount of revenue we all cough up into the government pot by running cars. Green my @r*e.

Anyway I'll just take another tablet......

Ok on the subject of trip computers the point I didn't make very well is that I don't see how it uses the trip mileage to do its calculation. I think it uses a straight speed/time/throttle/revs matrix. I'm fairly sure it doesn't measure fuel flow because on our system so much is returned to the tank (so much that it returns through a cooler that you will see if you get on your hands and knees to look under the car about level with the front seats, it is an alloy box with fins) that you would have to measure flow and return then deduct one from the other. However, one thing is does measure very accurately is exactly what is injected and I don't suspect for one minute that it will be deviating this side of about 250k miles.

So it has everything it needs without using the trip mileage and that is why I think it is our sums using the trip mileage that is in question. I have a very interesting 16 page pdf file on this if you want to know more but you will have to send me your email address for me to attach it. Did you also know that it will vary the mileage of the "change oil" warning depending on how much soot the ECU calculates it has generated?

All good stuff. Ah reckon its them tyres you know. I know NMaria has calculated the correction factor but nothing else can change to that extent to effect your graphs.

[bothwell_buyer]

Ma Goad. Anchorman gettin angry. Haud yer wheesht - thats ma job! Calm the beans an keep oan track. Whit this country needs is the sort of systems put in by France etc with true high speed trains and the investment to support it.

If my brother can travel from centre Paris to centre London in 3 hours, why does he have to sit for 6 hours on a train to Glasgow? then again, it'd be almost impossible to drive it in that sort of time (been there and done it a few times but not as quick.

As far as mpg figures, you (collective) have mentioned tyre wear circumference. Then you have engine efficiency factors. Then you have transmission energy consumption as well. Theres so many factors that it becomes nonsensical.

If ye want tae be green, ye either cycle, which creates CO2 frae additional breathing etc and also can result in excess methane outputs, or take a train or a bus. Then how many times dae ye leave the phone ringing afore ye answer it...? Ringing current is 50V ac which drops down to dc when answered??? Take the number of telephones; and if everyone answered the phone 1 ring quicker then the country could save umpteen tons of CO2.

A train fu is high efficiency. Compared to money spent on road maintenance, I suspect mile for mile, road is far more expensive. ma pal John worked oan the rail fur 47 years in the days when they walked the track tae check fur faults. Aye an he got his cups o tea. Whit dya get oan the roads - 7 men stannin roon a hole and wan filling it.

Fur example, how on earth does roundabouts cost £1,000,000 ??? Aye - thats the construction cost! Fur wan.

Wi ma propane bus, it does 265 miles oan 75 litres of propane @ £0.47 a litre noo. Wi ma RAV as it noo is, I pay for the thrill o using it. Fair dooooz.

ye widnae mind if the governingment spent the duty oan transport but it disnae. Even if they spent it oan fast train links, n sorted oot awe the bends oan the West coast line, great. (Course, I'd maybe need tae change the rims oan ma RAV tae fit....!) :angry: :ffs:

[anchorman]

Ma Goad. Anchorman gettin angry. Haud yer wheesht - thats ma job! Calm the beans an keep oan track. Whit this country needs is the sort of systems put in by France etc with true high speed trains and the investment to support it.

If my brother can travel from centre Paris to centre London in 3 hours, why does he have to sit for 6 hours on a train to Glasgow? then again, it'd be almost impossible to drive it in that sort of time (been there and done it a few times but not as quick.

As far as mpg figures, you (collective) have mentioned tyre wear circumference. Then you have engine efficiency factors. Then you have transmission energy consumption as well. Theres so many factors that it becomes nonsensical.

If ye want tae be green, ye either cycle, which creates CO2 frae additional breathing etc and also can result in excess methane outputs, or take a train or a bus. Then how many times dae ye leave the phone ringing afore ye answer it...? Ringing current is 50V ac which drops down to dc when answered??? Take the number of telephones; and if everyone answered the phone 1 ring quicker then the country could save umpteen tons of CO2.

A train fu is high efficiency. Compared to money spent on road maintenance, I suspect mile for mile, road is far more expensive. ma pal John worked oan the rail fur 47 years in the days when they walked the track tae check fur faults. Aye an he got his cups o tea. Whit dya get oan the roads - 7 men stannin roon a hole and wan filling it.

Fur example, how on earth does roundabouts cost £1,000,000 ??? Aye - thats the construction cost! Fur wan.

Wi ma propane bus, it does 265 miles oan 75 litres of propane @ £0.47 a litre noo. Wi ma RAV as it noo is, I pay for the thrill o using it. Fair dooooz.

ye widnae mind if the governingment spent the duty oan transport but it disnae. Even if they spent it oan fast train links, n sorted oot awe the bends oan the West coast line, great. (Course, I'd maybe need tae change the rims oan ma RAV tae fit....!) :angry: :ffs:

bothy for pm

Ah tell ya, he's got it right!

[shcm]

Ok on the subject of trip computers the point I didn't make very well is that I don't see how it uses the trip mileage to do its calculation. I think it uses a straight speed/time/throttle/revs matrix. I'm fairly sure it doesn't measure fuel flow because on our system so much is returned to the tank (so much that it returns through a cooler that you will see if you get on your hands and knees to look under the car about level with the front seats, it is an alloy box with fins) that you would have to measure flow and return then deduct one from the other. However, one thing is does measure very accurately is exactly what is injected and I don't suspect for one minute that it will be deviating this side of about 250k miles.

I wondered what that heat sink was which appeared to be in the fuel line. Never struck me it was in a line returning fuel to the tank. Makes sense now! :D

.....and while I digress (do I ever :P ), first time I can remember for years being able to hear fuel sloshing around in the tank (mostly when it's near full). Probably because the tank is on one side of the vehicle and nearly comes up to the passengers seat and possibly because the vehicle is so quiet :D

.......and another thing. Any idea what's with the "plastic shield type boxes" on the underside? Maybe they are protecting something, must have a look. They seem good at collecting stones though.

4.3 Owner: My RAV rattles

Dealer: They all do that sir/madam. It's the plastic stone catcher. We can clean them out for £200 all in.

4.3 Owner: Oh yes please do. You're so wonderful. :D

Dealer: Yes we are :P

(Sorry Kingo, only Jest - well a feeble attempt anyway and no, you can't really hear stones rattling in them).

[Fujisan]

Ok on the subject of trip computers the point I didn't make very well is that I don't see how it uses the trip mileage to do its calculation. I think it uses a straight speed/time/throttle/revs matrix. I'm fairly sure it doesn't measure fuel flow because on our system so much is returned to the tank (so much that it returns through a cooler that you will see if you get on your hands and knees to look under the car about level with the front seats, it is an alloy box with fins) that you would have to measure flow and return then deduct one from the other. However, one thing is does measure very accurately is exactly what is injected and I don't suspect for one minute that it will be deviating this side of about 250k miles.

I wondered what that heat sink was which appeared to be in the fuel line. Never struck me it was in a line returning fuel to the tank. Makes sense now! :D

.....and while I digress (do I ever :P ), first time I can remember for years being able to hear fuel sloshing around in the tank (mostly when it's near full). Probably because the tank is on one side of the vehicle and nearly comes up to the passengers seat and possibly because the vehicle is so quiet :D

.......and another thing. Any idea what's with the "plastic shield type boxes" on the underside? Maybe they are protecting something, must have a look. They seem good at collecting stones though.

4.3 Owner: My RAV rattles

Dealer: They all do that sir/madam. It's the plastic stone catcher. We can clean them out for £200 all in.

4.3 Owner: Oh yes please do. You're so wonderful. :D

Dealer: Yes we are :P

(Sorry Kingo, only Jest - well a feeble attempt anyway and no, you can't really hear stones rattling in them).

Well, you learn something everyday

And yes, I can hear the fuel sloshing around.

[bothwell_buyer]

Fuel sloshing around in a diesel RAV? I'm baffled!!!!

[NMaria]

Took my car in to the dealer (Alexander Wallace in Elgin, lovely people) for its first service the other day, and asked the chap in charge of the workshop about the mpg deviation. He said the fault lay probably with the software, adding that it was fairly new and that they had had some problems with software in the Yaris making the mpg 'go scatty'. If the problem did not get better they would fix it for me, probably by fitting a new ECU. Nice man!

So, as anchorman says, it is probably not the measurement of the fuel used but the computations that are at fault somehow. As for my own calculations, I take the mileage covered from the trip meter and the amount of fuel used from the forecourt gauge, and neither of those is likely to be out by 15%. The calculation is an extremely simple one which I like to think I am competent to carry out. This is where I am very sorry but I must disagree with you, anchorman - it looks more likely to me that the techie chap at the dealership is right, and the software is getting something wrong. (which is worrying - if it even calculates things like the amount of soot produced, lord knows what other misinformation besides wrong mpg it is going to give us). What do you think?

I would quite like to read that pdf file on the matter, by the way - have you still got my email address?

[bothwell_buyer]

Took my car in to the dealer (Alexander Wallace in Elgin, lovely people) for its first service the other day, and asked the chap in charge of the workshop about the mpg deviation. He said the fault lay probably with the software, adding that it was fairly new and that they had had some problems with software in the Yaris making the mpg 'go scatty'. If the problem did not get better they would fix it for me, probably by fitting a new ECU. Nice man!

So, as anchorman says, it is probably not the measurement of the fuel used but the computations that are at fault somehow. As for my own calculations, I take the mileage covered from the trip meter and the amount of fuel used from the forecourt gauge, and neither of those is likely to be out by 15%. The calculation is an extremely simple one which I like to think I am competent to carry out. This is where I am very sorry but I must disagree with you, anchorman - it looks more likely to me that the techie chap at the dealership is right, and the software is getting something wrong. (which is worrying - if it even calculates things like the amount of soot produced, lord knows what other misinformation besides wrong mpg it is going to give us). What do you think?

I would quite like to read that pdf file on the matter, by the way - have you still got my email address?

Dya ken that tae travel frae your place tae Plymouth would = 115kg o soot!!

If the software is wrang then whit use is changing the ECU? Surely it needs re-booted?? An if its a 5 door, then re-wellied!

[NMaria]

Hello bothy. 115kg soot, that is terrible. Must remember not to visit Plymouth. I thought some diesel cars had a soot filter fitted, but if the stuff accumulates that fast you would need one heck of a filter box - something the size of a caravan, I'd have thought. What would you do with it when it was full?

Yes, I too wondered what good a new ECU would do if it were identical to the current unit. But a lot of people don't seem to have the wonky mpg problem, so perhaps ours is a dodgy software version?

[bothwell_buyer]

Hello bothy. 115kg soot, that is terrible. Must remember not to visit Plymouth. I thought some diesel cars had a soot filter fitted, but if the stuff accumulates that fast you would need one heck of a filter box - something the size of a caravan, I'd have thought. What would you do with it when it was full?

Yes, I too wondered what good a new ECU would do if it were identical to the current unit. But a lot of people don't seem to have the wonky mpg problem, so perhaps ours is a dodgy software version?

Or maybe its 115kg carbon footprint (same thing??). I have 4 large black composters (ordered and paid for 2 but delivered 4) so shred all the evidence and have planted dozens of willows. Also the charity has money to plant some hundreds of trees. What did the auld sweep dae wi his soot??

I'll have a word with the guys at The Garage when I'm there as they re-map the software as part of their work to tweak sprint and drag racing cars amongst others (mine). I don't think they replace the ECU unless in extreme cases.

[shcm]

Most ECUs these days have flash memory (not in the past), so if it is purely a software issue (not ultra-reliable hardware ) , you can usually just re-program it.

I'm not convinced the EMS (Engine Management System) does the consumption calculation anyway, more likely the instrument pack software, but I've no problem in being proven wrong. :).

I'm trying not to get hung up on it anyway.

Careful Bothy - Try not to go down the petrol versus diesel CO2 emissions path, their might be a large hole waiting for you to jump in it. ;)

Cheers

[chatman]

Careful Bothy - Try not to go down the petrol versus diesel CO2 emissions path, their might be a large hole waiting for you to jump in it. ;)

Cheers

Ha if it was not for all us nice clean Diesel engined 5 door RAV's :D :D you would not get these lovely sunny summers and mild winters we are having......... :D :D :D :D :D

Go on come over to the dark side of the pumps and go Diesel.. :ph34r: Like I say us Diesel drivers put the o into the Co2

P.S. Is it me or have those Emoticons all changed place in the box to left of new replies ;) ;) ;)

[Fujisan]

P.S. Is it me or have those Emoticons all changed place in the box to left of new replies ;) ;) ;)

No, it not just you, they're all over the place!

[bothwell_buyer]

Haw, wait a minit. Good ol British rail relied on diesels (and still do in the new liveries) - and now we hear that electricity is going to be produced once more by coal as diesel is inefficient!!!

So does that mean we might see a steam driven RAV??? Me? Ah'd look furar tae that!

N when dya ever see a 5 door steam engine.....????

Ah got rid o ma diesel engined Renault Trafic cos the fumes were choking the wife wha wis pushing the van up hills!!! An that ony had 4 doors!

By the way, whit happens tae aw o yer worn tyres - dis ya ken?? Frae yer 5 door rubber guzzlers??

5 doors are fur we'ens

[dave.m]

5 doors are fur we'ens

Actually your quite right Bothy 5 doors are for we'ens. In fact they brilliant for we'ens, especially for gettin them

in and out and seats buggy's the lot. Tell you what else they are good for, getting disabled mother in laws in and

out of. Great for access, and getting a wheelchair and 20 carrier bags of shopping in the boot. Which is what my

5 door does every saturday

[PinkMinkee]

i lov our rav, 5 door beastie :P

[bothwell_buyer]

5 doors are fur we'ens

Actually your quite right Bothy 5 doors are for we'ens. In fact they brilliant for we'ens, especially for gettin them

in and out and seats buggy's the lot. Tell you what else they are good for, getting disabled mother in laws in and

out of. Great for access, and getting a wheelchair and 20 carrier bags of shopping in the boot. Which is what my

5 door does every saturday

WRANG

We'ens go in pigeons boxes. Mithers in law gae in the trailer. An the auld Citroen BX estate wis brilliant fur this. Frae that we moved tae the 8-seater Previa which wis equally brilliant.

[anchorman]

Fuel sloshing around in a diesel RAV? I'm baffled!!!!

You are but the tank isn't (ha ha - anchorjoke).

Baffled that is..........

Anyway, cold but nice today

[anchorman]

Took my car in to the dealer (Alexander Wallace in Elgin, lovely people) for its first service the other day, and asked the chap in charge of the workshop about the mpg deviation. He said the fault lay probably with the software, adding that it was fairly new and that they had had some problems with software in the Yaris making the mpg 'go scatty'. If the problem did not get better they would fix it for me, probably by fitting a new ECU. Nice man!

So, as anchorman says, it is probably not the measurement of the fuel used but the computations that are at fault somehow. As for my own calculations, I take the mileage covered from the trip meter and the amount of fuel used from the forecourt gauge, and neither of those is likely to be out by 15%. The calculation is an extremely simple one which I like to think I am competent to carry out. This is where I am very sorry but I must disagree with you, anchorman - it looks more likely to me that the techie chap at the dealership is right, and the software is getting something wrong. (which is worrying - if it even calculates things like the amount of soot produced, lord knows what other misinformation besides wrong mpg it is going to give us). What do you think?

I would quite like to read that pdf file on the matter, by the way - have you still got my email address?

Maz

Don't get me wrong because I have a very high regard for your opinion - however, while there are some very nice people in Toyota dealerships and no doubt some very knowledgeable but I have had conversations in the past with some of them that has proven without doubt that they have made subjective comments that seem convenient to them but are positively wrong. Being the original model for the grumpy old men show you will know by now that I tend to be a bit on the cynical side (bear with me I'm 50 next year) but I think the Japanese computer expert that mapped out the program for the Trip Computer will be a bit cleverer than that person in your dealership.

I think the consistent bit will be the trip computer program. I am honestly open minded but if the trip computer is relying on data from the speed sensor (that works the speedo and could therefor effect the data the tc is using for it's sums) which will also be changing as the tyres wear and the manual calcs are changing as the tyres wear is this a compounded effect?

My maths is OK but not red hot. I believe shcm is planning to look at this in more detail when he gets chance so hopefully he will come up with some plausible explanation.

Bothy

You are supposed to inject the Nitrous into your engine - not drink it. How much is it going to cost us to ply you with drink and just how risky will it be?

[bothwell_buyer]

Cost = £bottle of Grouse + 2 bottles of lemonade

Result - I cannae remember

[chatman]

Ok enough of the whisky and mixers........

Just worked out my fuel usage....Just topped up tank this morning....

Not bad I say.....Being a 5 door RAV Diesel.........

[bothwell_buyer]

Fuel sloshing around in a diesel RAV? I'm baffled!!!!

You are but the tank isn't (ha ha - anchorjoke).

Baffled that is..........

Anyway, cold but nice today

Ehhhh - that wis my point. The diesel tank cannae be baffled same as whit ma tank ...... :D