Run Flat Puncture

[sywy]

There must be a way to disable the TPMS, so it wouldn't matter if the wheels didn't match up.

It not like you can't tell you have a flat. The tyre does go flat, and it's like running with a solid tyre, and you feel every little imperfection in the road!!

[cfc1]

Kingo... I didn't mean to come across as "shooting you down".. and I apologize if I did so (You are a valuable addition to TOC)

I appreciate that it IS more difficult to fit run flat tyres, but with the right equipment it really isn't too much of a problem... but then with the experience I have I should think not eh!

As I stated I have no idea how long it takes to set the TPMS.. if indeed it does take a long time I am surprised... surprised that Toyota have dropped a clanger, Take the Mini as an example.. once a new tyre has been fitted, all the driver has to do is push a button located near the handbrake and the system is reset to the new tyre.. job done.

As for the old style changer... (shows how long I've been doing this job ) they were the quickest machines I have worked with to change tyres... although with 90% of todays cars having alloy wheels they aren't much good in the workshop anymore. (we still have one tucked away in a small room somewhere... it's not setup and doesn't get used.)

Dave... I know of no reason why normal tyres cannot be fitted to the rims... as for a set of aftermarket alloys... yes.. a lot cheaper than £900 easily.

Is the runflat system a load of kak???.. well.. hit a brick or some other foreign object on the road... blow a huge hole in a tyre.. brake the wheel.. and what do you do next? IMO you really are better to carry a spare wheel.

Run-flat tyres are designed to minimise the difference in ride quality when a tyre is punctured. This is especially the case with motorway driving where there is relatively little cornering. For this reason it is difficult to determine that a tyre has lost pressure or is operating in zero pressure conditions. Should the driver not be aware of a loss of pressure they may well exceed the safety limits imposed by the manufacturer. This would eventually cause the tyre to fail. Run-flat tyres are not indestructible!

If you have runflat tyres as standard and want to put the more conventional type of tyre on, be prepared for possible handling problems. A lot of vehicles that are fitted with runflat tyres have softer suspension to compensate for the harsher ride quality, so fitting normal tyres on a vehicle like this may make you car feel a little unstable.. I have no idea if the Rav 4 has softer suspension for runflat tyres.. check with Toyota.

More info.....

Distance and speed

SST tyres are designed to provide a run-flat capability following deflation. The range when running flat is dependent on the conditions of use, vehicle load, speeds and driving conditions. Each manufacturer of SST tyres may well have a slightly different recommendation related to speed and distance travelled in a deflated condition. However, whilst a universal standard is yet to be defined, the industry feeling is that this is likely to be 80 km (50 miles) distance at speeds of up 80 kph (50mph) for cars in normal use.

Repairing run-flat tyres

Run-flat tyres have specially reinforced sidewalls enabling them to perform whilst deflated for a limited distance and speed as already mentioned. In the course of running in a deflated or significantly under inflated condition, the tyre structure is subjected to high stresses and therefore may become weakened and permanently damaged rendering the tyre both unsuitable and unsafe to repair.

When a standard tyre is run in a deflated condition there are visible signs which indicate that damage to the tyre's structure has occurred. Because of the reinforced sidewall structure of a run-flat tyre these telltale signs are likely to be masked and not visible even if they are present. Even a fully qualified tyre repairer may not be able to detect run flat damage to a tyre. For these reasons alone and in the interests of safety the British Rubber Manufacturers' Association, the body representing the major tyre manufacturing companies, does not recommend repairs to a run flat tyre. The advice from individual manufacturers of run flat tyres may differ however and motorists are advised to check with the tyre company for any different advice.

I know the Goodyear will permit ONE conventional repair per tyre, but Bridgestone and Firestone do not permit any repairs to their tyres.. they insist that the tyre is returned for inspection to make sure the structure of the tyre isn't damaged before they pass it fit for any repair. Continental and Pirelli do not permit repairs,

It gets a little more complicated from Michelin.........

Michelin however have had a change of policy and now state that their run-flat tyres can be repaired as long as there is no visible internal damage and no more than one repair per tyre is executed. As some Michelin run-flat tyres carry a sidewall notice prohibiting repairs the company state that this should still be complied with. Consequently Michelin run-flat tyres can be repaired, once, if the sidewall does not contradict the new directive.

The Michelin run-flat tyres directive is in question and answer form and is as follows:-

Why may Michelin ZP be repaired?

We have examined many ZP tyres after they have been punctured in order to establish a position on reparability. This statement is the result of considerable study to ensure that ZP tyres may be repaired safely.

New Michelin ZP tyre lines, such as PRIMACY HP ZP, are repairable once and once only following the same rules as standard car tyres such as Michelin PRIMACY HP. Michelin have prepared this statement which dealers should follow when dealing with the repair of ZP tyres. However, it is the dealer's responsibility to decide whether an individual tyre is repairable or not.

What about existing ZP versions of tyre lines such as Pilot Primacy, Pilot Sport PS2, PILOT Alpin PA2?

Existing ZP tyres from tyre lines such as PILOT SPORT PS2 / PILOT PRIMACY / PILOT ALPIN PA2 are still considered NON-REPAIRABLE when, "Do not reuse or repair the tires after a low or zero pressure operation" or equivalent is written on the sidewall.

You also CANNOT mix runflat tyres.. you MUST have the same type across the axle.

So.. are runflats kak? That question is still being debated by the tyre industry council.

It really depends who you ask.. the tyre manufacturer.. the car manufacturer or the end user.

[Parts-King]

No problem cfc1, no offence taken, excellent post on the different types of repairs allowed

Kingo

[dave.m]

Think this would be a well timed opportunity to do a poll on this. Never done it so will leave it

to some one who knows what they are doing, interesting reply's.

Thanks. ;)

[cfc1]

What kind of poll.. like them.. don't like them?

[shcm]

Yes your right, it is ridiculous, but sadly true, its not the fitting of the tyre so much, although it is a pig, its the TPMS and re-code that takes forever

Kingo, I'm not having a go at you (after all it's great to have a dealer posting on here), but what exactly takes the time?

It would appear from the factory manual that the handheld tester only gives you 5 minutes to enter all of the transmitter IDs anyway, before it times out. So is the procedure something like:

1. read out and write down a list of all the programmed IDs from the ECU via the tester.

2. Check the ID of the knackered wheel and remove it from the list.

3. Add the ID of the new wheel to the list

4. Re-enter all the IDs into the ECU via the tester.

Er............... that's it?

Perhaps you do the signal test as well, which looks like it may take a little longer?

There must be a way to disable the TPMS, so it wouldn't matter if the wheels didn't match up.

It not like you can't tell you have a flat. The tyre does go flat, and it's like running with a solid tyre, and you feel every little imperfection in the road!!

Yeah, pull the ECU plug :D. If the TPMS ECU was on the vehicle CAN bus, no doubt doing this would cause all sorts of trouble, but I don't think it is. Trouble is I expect the instrument pack warning light is on by "default" and the ECU probably "turns it off", so to speak, so you'd have to probably pull that signal to either 12V or GND (depending on its "sense") as well.

Shame, I think all this is also giving TPMS a "bad name", which is a pity, since I quite like the idea of it. Pity they didn't offer the TPMS will normal tyres on the XT5.

Cheers

[chatman]

You forgot Cup of Tea between 1,2 & 3...........

Hiding behind sofa now.... :unsure:

[cfc1]

Just because a TPMS system (there are a few different ones) is fitted on a vehicle.. it doesn't mean that the vehicle must have runflat tyres fitted, you may, if you so wish, fit normal tyres. The downside(s) to this are...

1. you have no spare and the normal tyre will deflate quicker than the runflat (although if you total your wheel it matters not a jot if had runflat tyres.. you still don't have a spare.

2. The handling of the vehicle could possibly change due to softer suspension fitted to compensate for the harsher ride of runflat tyres.

Going the other way around.. If your car doesn't have a TPMS system it is illegal to fit runflat tyres.

Chatman... your wife knows your hiding behind the sofa, she now thinks your even more of a R4SBADLTWSWID

[chatman]

Chatman... your wife knows your hiding behind the sofa, she now thinks your even more of a R4SBADLTWSWID

No she don't...not back from work yet...and I've locked the front door :lol: :lol: :lol:

[shcm]

You forgot Cup of Tea between 1,2 & 3...........

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Oh and there's all that sucking of teeth to do as well. Forgot about That!

.......................................................Incoming!

[sywy]

CFC1, it could be me interpretting it wrong, but all your quotes seem to be about a runflat tyre with stiff sidewalls. You do know that the system employed on the T180 is a metal 'donut' that is clamped around the alloy wheel? And it is this that enables the T180 to run with a flat (to my understanding anyway). TBH, I'm not even sure that the tyres are 'special' in any way, but I could be wrong!!

[dave.m]

What kind of poll.. like them.. don't like them?

How about IMHO kack or not kack ? (love this thread) ;)

[shcm]

What kind of poll.. like them.. don't like them?

How about IMHO kack or not kack ? (love this thread) ;)

Ok, How about:

1. Kack

2. Not Kack

3. I like TPMS but not run flats

4. I like run flats but not TPMS

5. I'd willingly sell my house, all my possessions and my family into slavery, just so I could have run flats on my vehicle

6. They are far to chewy and rubbery for me and stick between my teeth

7. I want solid tyres

8. I want those crazy spoked things that don't have any side walls

9. I'd rather fit my RAV out with tank tracks (and a turret)

10. I don't care, just post some more RAV pics

11. What's a tyre?

12. I've caught the insanity bug from dave.m, chatman and fuj. Wibble.

13. Ye ha, why can't you spell tire properly?

14. I'll let you know after I've taken my medication

[cfc1]

CFC1, it could be me interpretting it wrong, but all your quotes seem to be about a runflat tyre with stiff sidewalls. You do know that the system employed on the T180 is a metal 'donut' that is clamped around the alloy wheel? And it is this that enables the T180 to run with a flat (to my understanding anyway). TBH, I'm not even sure that the tyres are 'special' in any way, but I could be wrong!!

I never knew that.. thanks for pointing that out.

I will assume it could be of a similar nature to the rings the go inside the wheels of trailers and caravans that serves the purpose of only stopping the tyre from coming off the rim in the event of deflation, but of course useing a different setup that also enables the tyre to run when flat.

That being the case I appologize once again to Kingo, these type of things are indeed a right royal pain in the :censor: and can take a while to fit, especially for someone with little experience of doing them. Obviously I have never had the misfortune of changeing the runflat tyres on a Rav.

The BSR system (Bridgestone Support Ring) is totally different to the reinforced sidewall system.

• Self-supporting run-flats. Most run-flat tires have specially reinforced sidewalls that support the weight of the vehicle when the tire deflates (see Figure 1). This tire design can be used with conventional wheels and rims. Bridgestone, Dunlop, Goodyear, Pirelli, Yokohama, and other tire manufacturers make self-supporting run-flat tires.
  
• Run-flat tires with support rings. In this type of run-flat, a support ring encircles the interior of the wheel and prevents the tire from collapsing on the wheel when it loses air. The only example currently in production is Michelin's PAX system, which employs a special alloy wheel, a rubber and polyurethane support ring, and a tire that are designed to work together (see Figure 2). Other tire companies — Bridgestone, for example — are working on variants that can be used with conventional wheels and tires.
  

After reading this link I now know why I haven't fitted any.. it was main dealer only, thankfully , and it also states...

For the record Bridgestone doesn’t believe car dealerships are any better prepared than independent dealers, the company is simply using these outlets as a changing/collection point for complete wheel assemblies to be fitted. In fact, no Toyota dealers are changing any RAV4 tyres themselves, says Dingley.

From a safety and a liability perspective, this move is said to benefit the independent dealer. “We have to be certain that they are being fitted properly,” explained Dingley, adding: “It is in our interests to train as many dealers as possible. And we continue to encourage dealers to take our whole day theoretical and practical run-flat course.”

This will explain the system Toyota had/have in place R.E replacing punctured tyres... because no-one could actually fit them in the early days as Bridgestone wouldn't let anyone do it.

IMO.. Rav4 runflats... you can keep them!! too much hastle.. too little reward. Normal tyres at a resonable price is better and cheaper option.

http://www.ntda.co.uk/cms/index.php?option...7&Itemid=74

Untill a more simple system for both the actual tyre and the TPMS systems is found and standardised throught the motor trade then I personally would rather have a normal tyre.

At the moment it's just like Beta Max or VHS... Blue Ray or HD-DVD... the sooner a simple cost effective system is in place the better.

[dave.m]

Davy, good to get a perspective from a non Toyota tyre fitting company Think this ones going

to run for a long time (which is more than you can say for the tyres :P )

SHCM, you are allready a number 12

[Parts-King]

Thats the word I was looking for last night "Donut" :D It's the donut and re-programming bit that takes an age to sort out, not so much the actual fitting of the tyre to the rim. I have to say being a parts bod, I have no experience in fitting these whatsoever, (Had plenty of normal tyre fitting experience when I was on the tools many moons ago) I just know from the groaning noise that comes from the workshop that we have a runflat that needs replacing

Kingo

[chatman]

If I was in the market to buy a newer RAV4...I like the T180 but this hassle is a nightmare if ever getting a puncture... :ffs: :ffs:

I would buy the XT5 Diesel (has most of the gadgets anyway ) and has a spare tyre ...then chip it up and hey presto :hokus-pokus: you have an almost as fast car, safe in the knowledge that if a puncture doeas happen..Mr RAC or AA can easily fix it....

Now when the salesmen sell these T180 to you I bet they say "dont worry if a puncture happens Your local Toyota dealer can easily repair them" now go and tell that to the mechanics in the back workshop :bash: ....and the poor punter who has to then pay through the nose to get it fixed..... :crybaby:

[Manxrav]

I,ve had this problem with my T180 for over 6 months since I moved onto the Island. Had puncture in W Yorks took it to West Riding Toyota in Huddersfield did xchange no problem. Week later driving up M6 to ferry TP warning light starts flashing. Call in at Caledonian Toyota on Island, tell them story ( incidently no puncture had occured on M6) they do the business charge me £35 for said job off I go. 2 days later TP light reappears( no punture),so I now check my T/P every week and put up with a flashing TP warning light.

Clare

[anchorman]

Clare

Can't you get it done under warranty? They have charged you to cobble their cr@p system.

I'd have to take the bulb out - it would drive my up the wall!

[shcm]

I'd have to take the bulb out - it would drive my up the wall!

I have the feeling they are LEDs (i.e. soldered in), but please correct me if I'm wrong (I haven't looked).

I agree though, to charge for it is terrible and don't fix is worse.

I'd put money on that they have just cleared the fault codes from the ECU, rather than fixing the root cause, which is probably that the ECU still has the old bust wheel registered in it.

When the ECU hasn't seen a transmission from the bust wheel for a while, it will register a fault and up will pop the light again.

I think it can take between 12 minutes and an hour before the ECU decides it can't hear the transmission from a specific wheel.

[anchorman]

There are some bulbs but without taking the instrument cluster out I couldn't say if they are for warning lights or back lighting.

[Fujisan]

12. I've caught the insanity bug from dave.m, chatman and fuj. Wibble.

Somebody call?

Now were did I put my pencil's?

[Fujisan]

If I was in the market to buy a newer RAV4...I like the T180 but this hassle is a nightmare if ever getting a puncture... :ffs: :ffs:

I would buy the XT5 Diesel (has most of the gadgets anyway ) and has a spare tyre ...then chip it up and hey presto :hokus-pokus: you have an almost as fast car, safe in the knowledge that if a puncture doeas happen..Mr RAC or AA can easily fix it....

I have to agree you Chatman. The T180 is a lovely car ......but!

£27 grand......ow arr :o

These run-flats