Wheel Wobble

[itwillblowyourmind]

Hi all,

Can anyone shed some light onto this before I shed the car into a lake.

I have an old shape avensis, 51 plate. for the last year I have been getting some very bad wheel wobble coming through the steering.

Syptoms.

At anything over 40 the steering wheel starts to wobble, the faster you go the more it wobbles, doing 75 - 80 down the M18 the steering wheel is moving up to an inch in each direction, and I can't keep hold of the wheel as it gives me pins and needles in the ends of my fingers. Also even on days when their is no side wind, the whole car is bouncing around in the lane, I'm constanatly making tiny adjustments on the steering to keep it in a straight line.

Applying the brakes is when i check my life insurane.

last year going on holiday, vibrating nicely down the M62 doing just under 70 some ...person... cuts me up and I hit the brakes fairly sharpish, In doing so the wobble through the stering wheel is 100 times worst, the whole car vibrates and bounces on the suspention and I just missed hitting the crash barrier.

Thinking that 1 or both wheels had come off, they had not, in fact on a visual inspection their is nothing wrong at all.

Since that day I have tried everything I can think of to cure the problem, but nothing has worked.

I have had all the wheels balanced that many times, the guys at my local garage have stopped charging me, I have swapped the wheels around in all configs, had several new sets of rubber, tried directional, I have had the tracking done, but the first time I had that done they said it was only 3mm out, and the limit was 5 mm anyway. Some one suggested it could be the brake discs, even though their is no judder from the brake peddle, I have put on brand new discs and pads all round.

1 mechanic has had a full set of lasers on it, but can't find anything wrong, even slightly. Another machanic has gone to the extent of measuring all the steering rack and front suspention, still nothing wrong. Some one suggested it could be the ABS, so I had the computer reset, presently I have taken out the fuse for the ABS to see what that does which is nothing.

At very low speeds with the brakes only just on, it does feel like a warped set of discs, bites in for a split second, then just normal breaking. At 5 ish MPH sometimes when the biting bit hits, the car will just stop dead which can launch things off the seat, other times it's hardly noticable.

Again I have had the discs checks but they are fine, not warpped. Everything is much more noticable once things have got warmed up. on a very cold morning it drives fine for about 5 minutes. Their are no noises coming from the bearings. Letting go of the steering wheel on a straight road - more often the car will turn off to the left, but sometimes will drift slowly off to the right. 1 thing that did puzzel the mechanics is the wear on the tyers is balanced and uniform all round.

It has been to MR T once, but they fobbed me off saying that the wobble was just caused by the groves in the tarmac from all the lorrys, and it was't even that bad ???????. One of Mr T's lot did let slip that their is a small issue he noticed with my car, but they are not willing to fix it, or even tell me unless I pay them over £700 to have genuine toyota brakes discs put back on. I had this problem on on the original toyota discs, and I still have the same problem on the new discs.

Has any body got any idea what could be causing this. :(

[bjw]

Its just a long shot but I remember reading somebody had a similar problem and it turned out the tyre had gone out of shape but I think somebody would have picked that up by now

Has your been off the road at all.

Sorry I myself cannot be any more help and hope you get it sorted soon there are people who post on here who are more mechanically minded than me I am sure they will post soon but you seem to have done the obvious like tracking and wheel balance

[gazza1286]

I had a problem with my Carina E which if worse on your car would present the issues you are experiencing.

Prior to buying my car I was aware that the front nearside wing had been replaced. It had been professionally repaired and the previous owner assured me that it was only the wing which had been damaged. Later it became apparent the problem was a bit more serious. The wheel hub had been slightly buckled. At low speeds I could hear the discs catching every revolution but strangely this seemed more audible on certain roads. On other I couldn't hear it.

Before discovering this I had wheel bearing replaced. In an attempt to identify the problem I jacked the front of the car up and started the engine and ran it it first gear. The wobble on the wheel was then clearly visible. A new front hub assembly (from a brakers) solved the problem.

It would seem clear that a buckled hub would be missed by both balancing wheels and laser alighnment. If it is relatively severe I would expect there to be juddering at various speeds and possibly even wobble when braking.

Good Luck

[Parts-King]

If the symptoms are as bad as described, somebody must be able to find a fault, its a process of elimination. Get to speak to your dealers top techy and go for a road test with him, I don't believe it cant be sorted

Kingo

[chandler32]

brake calipers i vote. my celica did the same once. if one of the calipers is binding slightly then it'll do just that. also explains the braking problem.

do the wheels get hot? drive a distance, then touch (carefully) each wheel. DO NOT TOUCH THE DISC OR CALIPER - obviously!! if one is noticeably hotter then replace the caliper.

worth a try!

[cfc1]

What about the Drive shaft.. get a check done?

[itwillblowyourmind]

HI all, that’s for your replies.

It was in a garage yesterday. They checked the tracking, re-balanced all the wheels and generally had a good look round the car. - can't find anything wrong.

They did mention that it could be what gazza1286 said about a buckled hub. and the brakes do catch every revolution, but the amount they catch is different from one minute to the next and only when the breaks are on.

The garage had the car in the air and spun each wheel looking for anything that wobbled or anything catching, but again couldn’t find anything.

The missus ordered me to Ikea yesterday afternoon (mmm Hotdogs), as soon as I got onto the M1 and got the car over 40 the wobble hit, Since the garage had re-done all the balancing it was only at every specific speeds when it got that bad I couldn’t hold the wheel, as soon as the car got over 60 I also got the vibrating seats, which If I'm right, means the back is out, but I'm hoping that it's just transfer from the front, although now the car does stay where I point it.

Before it used to bounce all over the road, but now even though it's vibrating it holds a line. WOW not that for over a year. Hitting the brakes still rips the steering wheel out of my hands and makes the CD player Jump that much it spits out the CD, but it doesn’t seem to want to kill me any more, it at least stays on the road.

gazza1286 or any body, what is the safest way to jack the front of my car up so I can start the engine and run it in first gear. I do have a 2 tonne trolley jack, but only 1, and I don't trust the cars own scissor jack since it half collapsed on me, hence why I now have a trolley jack.

[gazza1286]

I wouldn't try it without axle stands. These can be placed on the bulkhead near to where the rear of the lower wishbones are bolted to the body Shell. If the discs catch every revolution there is only three possibilities

(i) Warped discs (you've already discounted those)

(ii) Seized caliper sliders ( unlikely as the catching noise would be almost constant - and wheels would have been getting hotter and the pads/disc would be more worn on that side)

(iii) damaged worn hub.

Any problems with the driveshafts as suggested would be compensated by the CV joints so I doubt that this is the problem.

Keep us posted

[itwillblowyourmind]

OK - Getting closer thanks to Gazza1286 and ever one else’s help.

I got the front of the car up this lunch time, put it in first gear and let the clutch out, with the engine doing about 800 rev's, no accelerator I could see the passenger side wheel moved up once on every rotation. Couldn’t see any sideways movement, just vertical movement. The drivers side was fine, no movement in any direction (apart from it rotating of course).

I think you have resolved it. I need a new hub, and possibly some new bearings as well. I have got a price from Mr T for a new hub £60.89p + VAT.

I also got a price for a used Hub from a car spares shop £70.00 + VAT. ????? Think I will get a new one from Mr T's.

I'm thinking about doing it my self. I take the wheel off, strip the brake calliper down, out with the pads, off with the bolts, and then off with the disc.

I know I'm looking at having to unbolt the steering arm, but is their anything I need to know, hidden dangers etc. Also will a need a torque wrench. If so I will try and find a garage to do it.

[gazza1286]

The hub quoted by the brakers yard is the COMPLETE HUB ASSEMBLY. This includes bearings and the back plate for the disc and the casting which bolts onto the strut. It is basically unbolted from the donor car and will probably be an unadulterated item with original bearings etc. It is a simple (relatively) unbolt and bolt on job

This is the DIY route.

If you buy the hub and bearings from Mr T you will not be able to do the job yourself as the bearings require a press. This is definitely not a DIY option.

The work is fully detailed in the Haynes manual. The Manual also shows a Tip for removing the Hub Nut. The tool required to do this should be fabricated before starting the job proper.

The only specialtist tool you need (apart from the one above) is a 'ball-joint splitter' and a decent socker set. You will also need a DEEP 30mm socket for the hub nut

see:

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/...ategoryrn_71556

NOTE

One final thought. The movement you are seeing - is it linked to a sound as if the brakes are catching on the disc? Your explaination about movement only 'up and down' is inconsistant with what I would have expected. There really should have been some 'out-in' movement. Consider this. If the hub is distorted then the disc follows this uneven path. The brake caliper and pads are effectively fixed. Therefore as the wheel spins the disc will rub against the pad more at one part of the revolutlion that another, thus making a noise. The wheel being bolted to the hub should also display an 'in-out' cycle.

An -'UP - down' movement would be caused if the wheel is not centred on the hub when bolted in place. This only occurs when aftermarket alloy wheels are fitted and 'hub spacer rings' are either missing or are the wrong size.

Do you have after-market alloys?

[itwillblowyourmind]

The wheels are the original steel ones. The only time the brakes catch is when the brakes are on, there's no sound but you can feel them bite a lot harder at a certain point. A 30+ mile run up the M1 on a mild afternoon, no rain and all the wheels are cold, the tyres were slightly warm, and I could feel the heat coming off the brakes, but nothing that would suggest they were catching all the time.

I did once have a MK2 Astra where one of the callipers got stuck fully on. I though the car was a bit sluggish until I stopped at the lights and the wheel caught fire.

From the sounds of things I will let a professional change the hub. Shame I don't have a camera that I could fasten to the inside of the wheel arch then take it for a proper run. Don't much fancy trying to get the car up to over 70 whilst stood on Axel stands. It would be interesting though to see exactly what’s happening, and just how much more it moves when I put the brakes on. That could be the future of car diagnostics.

[gazza1286]

The distorted hub on my carina caused the pads to catch on the disc for every revolution. It was only the slightest noise but still audible. The brakes didn't bind at all.

Given what you say I am not at all convinced that the hub is distorted. To be certain you may need to try the same experiment with the wheels removed. Any distortion in the geometry of the hub and wheel studs will then be clear.