Rav4 Clutch Judder & Noise

[Raver4]

I got an 03 Rav4 2Lt diesel manual gearbox, 45K on the clock from new, recently noticed as I am pulling off a slight bit of judder as I let the clutch pedal up also there is a sort of jingling sound, have jacked it up and checked the exhaust from the turbo back and its a solid, could find nothing loose any where,all the shafts seems to be ok and all the CV joints are tight and intact,the carrier bearing on the prop shaft feels good,reading the other posts here my heart dropped when I seen the posts about the flywheel problem,can anyone explain what goes wrong with a flywheel that could cause a problem and is there anything that can be done without a major strip down, 45K and serviced every 8K what going on are they making them in China or somthing,I an going to go back to the dealers now as I am worried about the warranty running out.

Thanks in adavance.

Jim

[Fujisan]

Welcome to the TOC Jim

Sorry it's not under happier circumstances.

I'll let other's who are technically better explain the problems with the Duel Mass Flywheel's.

But what I would say is to get Mr T to check it out before your warranty run's out. And if the first gargage says it's nothing, go to another and let them check it out.

You don't want a bill for £2k only months after warranty has gone and has I'm sure your aware from reading past posts on this subject, exactly that has happen to a few people.

Good luck and I hope it is all sorted for you soon

[anchorman]

Hello Jim - welcome to the club

It doesn't sound good I'm afraid, you are describing all the symptoms of a DMF (dual mass flywheel) imminent failure.

In order to dampen some of the shock that a diesel generates a DMF is employed. It consists of a driving element which is connected to the crank shaft and a driven element that is connected to the transmission. The only connection between the two are a set of annular springs that act as the shock absorbers.

If these fail (often indicated by a jingling or rattling noise) the drive is lost completely. The warranty has been extended to 5 years or 100k but some owners have reported problems in getting the dealer to agree to it and in any case it is subject to them convincing themselves that the clutch has not been abused.

I am expecting a statement from Toyota tomorrow about their policy on this issue but in the meantime I would go and talk to your local service centre.

Regards

[Fujisan]

Thank you Anchorman for a clear but complete explaination of the system and the problem.

Great job

[Raver4]

Thanks very much guys,it will be going back to the dealers,it is scandalous that with such low milage that such a problem should arise,that sort of so called improvement is know in the heavy construction equipment that I repair as "BIF" built in fault,having looked up the technical claims for the need of such a flywheel I do not agree with the claims and with nearly 50 years on the tools have not known about any gearbox failing due to vibration,I have know Transit vans that wore out a half dozen engine in thier life and the gearbox was never touched,same with trucks and tractors so what kind of rubbish gearbox are been fitted to modern vehicles or is it due to the fact that the flywheel pilot bearing has been done away with,sometimes old was best,the way I see things my well looked after vehicle will be ruined after the replacement,they could not even change the oil without making a mess,now the thought of them removing the gearbox is not a good feeling.

Thanka again to all

Jim

[anchorman]

I know exactly how you feel.

When I bought a 4 month old demonstrator and the synchros were unnaceptable I refused to let them put a gearbox in because I knew it would not go back exactly the same as when it was built.

I think to some extent the DMF is fitted to refine the vehicle by reducing vibration (I think this might be a bigger problem now due to high compression common rail technology) and also as damage limitation on any knock on warranty issues with the transmission. The unanswered question is just what it would feel like with a one piece conventional flywheel???

I'm not sure the absense of a pilot bearing will have much to do with it as the transverse gearboxes tend to have a much shorter input shaft which is supported on very robust bearings within the box. The input shaft is actually the layshaft and the synchros are clustered on the output shaft (all back to front - but why there is no pilot bearing!).

Trust me I know just how you feel but your only salvation is that thanks to the age and mileage you can potentially get it done because you are looking at £1800 if it didn't qualify. One owner recently sourced the parts for about £800 but it is still a big mauling job even if you are a competent mechanic. I think you have to just take it on the chin and let them get on with it.

I have no doubt that there are some really good pukka mechanics working for Toyota so you might just be lucky.

Regards

[Raver4]

Had the vehicle taken to the local Toyota main dealers who I won't name, after a test drive the person who took it got told they could find nothing wrong and that a vehicle with that chassis number was not covered by the warranty, the service manager was asked for a letter to verify that the flywheel/clutch was not an issue and another to state that it was not covered by warranty,we got nethier,so the question now is when the flywheel fault came to light from what chassis number would have a modified unit if it has been modified fitted, this Rav4 is Oct 03,the last five digits of the vin is 33185, I would be very grateful to anyone that could tell me if it had the updated parts fitted during manufacture.

Thanks again

Jim

[anchorman]

Had the vehicle taken to the local Toyota main dealers who I won't name, after a test drive the person who took it got told they could find nothing wrong and that a vehicle with that chassis number was not covered by the warranty, the service manager was asked for a letter to verify that the flywheel/clutch was not an issue and another to state that it was not covered by warranty,we got nethier,so the question now is when the flywheel fault came to light from what chassis number would have a modified unit if it has been modified fitted, this Rav4 is Oct 03,the last five digits of the vin is 33185, I would be very grateful to anyone that could tell me if it had the updated parts fitted during manufacture.

Thanks again

Jim

Jim

I'm completely in the hands of Toyota PR who have promised a reply imminently. I have asked for an answer to these questions.

I have sent another reminder. All I can say is sit tight and see if they respond.

Regards

[Raver4]

Update, the dealer called today saying that Toyota gave the go ahead to do the replacement so it will be going in next week, Thanks very much to everyone esp Anchorman for your kind help and advise. I will leave it with them to sort it and report back on the vehicle return.

Jim

[Fujisan]

Update, the dealer called today saying that Toyota gave the go ahead to do the replacement so it will be going in next week, Thanks very much to everyone esp Anchorman for your kind help and advise. I will leave it with them to sort it and report back on the vehicle return.

Jim

Well done Jim

Hope your RAV is back to it's best very soon.

[pinkbits69]

avensis d4d has option of taxi clutch, these are transferable to the rav4, (check part numbers first with toyota parts). these consist with a solid flywheel and sprung plate, dual mass flywheel system consists of a sprung flywheel and solid plate, the only problem would be less smooth operation, a lot cheaper though if you run out of warranty

[chatman]

avensis d4d has option of taxi clutch, these are transferable to the rav4, (check part numbers first with toyota parts). these consist with a solid flywheel and sprung plate, dual mass flywheel system consists of a sprung flywheel and solid plate, the only problem would be less smooth operation, a lot cheaper though if you run out of warranty

Kingo............your thoughts on this one........... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[Parts-King]

avensis d4d has option of taxi clutch, these are transferable to the rav4, (check part numbers first with toyota parts). these consist with a solid flywheel and sprung plate, dual mass flywheel system consists of a sprung flywheel and solid plate, the only problem would be less smooth operation, a lot cheaper though if you run out of warranty

Kingo............your thoughts on this one........... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Never heard of it, lol, will investigate and report back

Kingo

[Parts-King]

avensis d4d has option of taxi clutch, these are transferable to the rav4, (check part numbers first with toyota parts). these consist with a solid flywheel and sprung plate, dual mass flywheel system consists of a sprung flywheel and solid plate, the only problem would be less smooth operation, a lot cheaper though if you run out of warranty

Sorry but I can find no evidence of this. I would be interested to know what part numbers you think could be used, I think if it was such a simple issue we would have had people do this all the time! Thinking about it, I'm sure that long term, the fittment of a solid flywheel might cause more problems than this short term fix, if indeed it is a fix. The jury is out on this one

Kingo

[chatman]

avensis d4d has option of taxi clutch, these are transferable to the rav4, (check part numbers first with toyota parts). these consist with a solid flywheel and sprung plate, dual mass flywheel system consists of a sprung flywheel and solid plate, the only problem would be less smooth operation, a lot cheaper though if you run out of warranty

Sorry but I can find no evidence of this. I would be interested to know what part numbers you think could be used, I think if it was such a simple issue we would have had people do this all the time! Thinking about it, I'm sure that long term, the fittment of a solid flywheel might cause more problems than this short term fix, if indeed it is a fix. The jury is out on this one

Kingo

Hmmmm :unsure: you dont see many RAV4 Taxi's thats for sure.....

[Hildretha]

Anchorman

Have you had a reply yet? Am still locked in a battle with Toyota, who in reply to my complain have sent me a patronising letter and a voucher for 100.00 to be redeemed in any dealership - how very kind of them eh? I feel like going in and asking for 100.00 pounds worth of washers!!

Am writing another letter today and was wonderiong if u had heard anything back.

Angela

[mjn]

Hello Jim - welcome to the club

It doesn't sound good I'm afraid, you are describing all the symptoms of a DMF (dual mass flywheel) imminent failure.

In order to dampen some of the shock that a diesel generates a DMF is employed. It consists of a driving element which is connected to the crank shaft and a driven element that is connected to the transmission. The only connection between the two are a set of annular springs that act as the shock absorbers.

If these fail (often indicated by a jingling or rattling noise) the drive is lost completely. The warranty has been extended to 5 years or 100k but some owners have reported problems in getting the dealer to agree to it and in any case it is subject to them convincing themselves that the clutch has not been abused.

I am expecting a statement from Toyota tomorrow about their policy on this issue but in the meantime I would go and talk to your local service centre.

Regards

[Raver4]

Sorry about the late reply as I was abroad, Toyota done the repairs free of charge and in one day even gave us a loan car,so far so good seems perfect again so thanks again guys.

Jim

[Fujisan]

That's great news Jim

Well done