Dmf Failures - How Do You Tell Which Cars Will Fail?

[Creamola]

Hi,

I am new to the Rav4 forum (having previously been in the Verso forum) but now that I have got rid of my company Verso, I quite fancied a Rav 4. That is, until I started browsing this forum and spotted the reports of the Dual Mass Flywheel problem. To be honest, it's put me right off - not just a Rav 4 - but anything from Toyota with the Diesel engine.

I had previously presumed that Toyotas had above average reliability, but with this issue, it seems that anyone who buys a Diesel Toyota is playing Russian roulette - not just about breaking down, but in breaking down with a failure so catastrophic that the car gets towed to a garage and the resulting bill is 2K.

I can't work out why the actual DMF replacement part is so expensive - looks like a chunk of metal to me. So how can a chunk of metal cost 800 quid? Is it licked into shape by gossamer wrapped virgins or something?

So, here is the question, the answer to which may reassure or put me off buying another Toyota - ever:

1. What is the real problem with this DMF - was there a faulty batch, or is it generically prone to failure?

2. If it is just a faulty batch, how can you tell if the Rav 4 you fancy buying has one of these faulty DMF's - is it a particular period of manufacture, and if so when?

3. Has the problem now been fixed - i.e. if you buy a brand new Diesel Toyota today - will it still have this timed catestrophic failure built in?

Thanks.

[anchorman]

Hi,

I am new to the Rav4 forum (having previously been in the Verso forum) but now that I have got rid of my company Verso, I quite fancied a Rav 4. That is, until I started browsing this forum and spotted the reports of the Dual Mass Flywheel problem. To be honest, it's put me right off - not just a Rav 4 - but anything from Toyota with the Diesel engine.

I had previously presumed that Toyotas had above average reliability, but with this issue, it seems that anyone who buys a Diesel Toyota is playing Russian roulette - not just about breaking down, but in breaking down with a failure so catastrophic that the car gets towed to a garage and the resulting bill is 2K.

I can't work out why the actual DMF replacement part is so expensive - looks like a chunk of metal to me. So how can a chunk of metal cost 800 quid? Is it licked into shape by gossamer wrapped virgins or something?

So, here is the question, the answer to which may reassure or put me off buying another Toyota - ever:

1. What is the real problem with this DMF - was there a faulty batch, or is it generically prone to failure?

There were faulty fixings (bolts) on models up to 2002 and evidence that there may still be some after that. The DMF is necessary on modern diesels and you might get a better explanation on post No 46 in here;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...72728&st=40

2. If it is just a faulty batch, how can you tell if the Rav 4 you fancy buying has one of these faulty DMF's - is it a particular period of manufacture, and if so when?

If it has a diesel engine it has a DMF. With regard to the fixings refer to the dates above but we may get a better picture tomorrow as more details are due from Toyota. The DMF is buried well inside the transmission and it would only be possible to detect imminent failure buy a significant vibration and or a metallic jingling noise.

3. Has the problem now been fixed - i.e. if you buy a brand new Diesel Toyota today - will it still have this timed catestrophic failure built in?

If you but ANY diesel car today there is a good chance that it will have a DMF. Toyota DMF's are no less reliable than most (maybe there are some exceptions) and significantly better than others. No doubt they will improve as they evolve but for the moment it could be a problem. There are RAVs running that have never had a problem.

Thanks.

[cmia]

Its not just the flywheel your replacing

the price your putting of 800.00

includes a

clutch

release bearing

pressure plate

fluwheel

bolts and nuts for the pressure plate

gearbox oil.

Ibby

[bothwell_buyer]

Haw Jimmy frae Bath. Ah went tae Bath (no ma bath but yer City o Bath) quite a few times.

Nice place if ye like auld buildings an lots o toffs.

Wid a buy a hoose in Bath. ???

No oan yer Nelly. place is fu oa auld hooses an cracks oan buildings whit were never ment tae haunell the vibrations frae the traffic.

Noo, whit yer asking is wid ye ever buy a Toyota fur the same reason. Weel, ah can go wi yer concern coming frae a city thats fawing apairt.

But, ye'll see frae ma RAV description that a've had wan frae new. Nae sweat. Luv em.

Wid ah buy a diesel> If ah wanted a diesel ah'd have boucht wan o they Delta wotsits frae British Rail cos they were awesome.

Ma RAV wot a've had frae new in 1994 is the ony car I've owned as long, an ahm no aboot tae get rid o it. Coming frae Bath, whit ye need is a bicycle, diesel assisted cos thats whit they dae there.

Oar a bus ticket

best wishes frae the 2nd best footba team in the wurrold aifeter Italy.

Yer man

[anchorman]

Haw Jimmy frae Bath. Ah went tae Bath (no ma bath but yer City o Bath) quite a few times.

Nice place if ye like auld buildings an lots o toffs.

Wid a buy a hoose in Bath. ???

No oan yer Nelly. place is fu oa auld hooses an cracks oan buildings whit were never ment tae haunell the vibrations frae the traffic.

Noo, whit yer asking is wid ye ever buy a Toyota fur the same reason. Weel, ah can go wi yer concern coming frae a city thats fawing apairt.

But, ye'll see frae ma RAV description that a've had wan frae new. Nae sweat. Luv em.

Wid ah buy a diesel> If ah wanted a diesel ah'd have boucht wan o they Delta wotsits frae British Rail cos they were awesome.

Ma RAV wot a've had frae new in 1994 is the ony car I've owned as long, an ahm no aboot tae get rid o it. Coming frae Bath, whit ye need is a bicycle, diesel assisted cos thats whit they dae there.

Oar a bus ticket

best wishes frae the 2nd best footba team in the wurrold aifeter Italy.

Yer man

Hey creamola I think bothy likes you. That is nicest thing he has ever said about any place south of the wall and this is what he recommends you to buy;

Except he would modify it to have the same lighting as Wembley and it would be capable of leaving the japanese HST for dead. Best not torment him too much about fitba though

[Fujisan]

I had previously presumed that Toyotas had above average reliability, but with this issue, it seems that anyone who buys a Diesel Toyota is playing Russian roulette - not just about breaking down, but in breaking down with a failure so catastrophic that the car gets towed to a garage and the resulting bill is 2K.

Isn't this the same gamble with all cars, all houses, all TV's, or anything else you part your hard earned money for. When you buy it, you gamble that it will not break the next day!

Yes, DMF's are a concern but if you let every little risk and worry rule your life you would never get out of bed. You way up the odds and make your best judgement.

I dare say that if you were to research every car on the market via this kind of internet forum, you would find a potenially expensive fault with every single one of them. It's life, nothing's perfect.

I can't work out why the actual DMF replacement part is so expensive - looks like a chunk of metal to me. So how can a chunk of metal cost 800 quid? Is it licked into shape by gossamer wrapped virgins or something?

Find yourself a suitable chunk of metal and try make a working DMF for yourself and you'll soon discover where the money goes!

PS. Sorry for writing in red, it's the only colour I could find that stood out from the original text.

[Creamola]

Really, a big thanks to everyone for the replies.

I probably didn't explain clearly enough that although I know that there is a risk of *any* DMF breaking, it was apparent from these and other forums that there is a significantly increased risk of that occuring on certain models/manufacturing dates and I was trying to clarify that.

Thanks to Anchorman (and it is a BIG thanks to Anchorman - who I paraphrase here) we now know that there is a significantly higher risk of DMF's failing on diesels manufactured before August 2002 specifically, the CLA20 and CLA21 models.

However, Toyota produced an improved DMF and revised fastening and tighenting process to vehicles manufactured after August 2002 with VIN numbers subsequent to:

JTEYG20V400009863

JTHEG20V600026183

JTHEG20V606013132

Conclusion: buy a post Aug 2002 model and the risk of significant failure - of the DMF or other major components - is no greater than for other cars. In fact, I think that you could argue that it is statistically less - given that Toyota cars are more reliable overall.

Creamola

PS. A bit thanks also to Bothy - cracked me up. Mate, you just try riding a bicycle around Bath. As they say around these parts: "the only way is up".....

[Ingolf]

Conclusion: buy a post Aug 2002 model and the risk of significant failure - of the DMF or other major components

I have a October 2002 Rav4 and had the DMF failure at 90000km´s, clutch worn at 90000km´s, turbo failure at 95000 km´s.

That was a bad year!

[Fujisan]

Conclusion: buy a post Aug 2002 model and the risk of significant failure - of the DMF or other major components

I have a October 2002 Rav4 and had the DMF failure at 90000km´s, clutch worn at 90000km´s, turbo failure at 95000 km´s.

That was a bad year!

A bad year! That's an understatement, it's a wonder you every touched another Toyota after that.

[Tamariki]

I have a 2001 RAV4, only done 41000 miles, as I am retired, with all the usual noises. I too got the run around from Toyota, even though the car was not yet 6 years old. My question is this. I have been quoted £2400 for the replacement job by my local main Toyota dealer, as they insist that they need to fit a new engine management system to go with the revised flywheel. Is this true? has anyone else run into this? Why is it necessary? if at all?

Tamariki

[chatman]

I have a 2001 RAV4, only done 41000 miles, as I am retired, with all the usual noises. I too got the run around from Toyota, even though the car was not yet 6 years old. My question is this. I have been quoted £2400 for the replacement job by my local main Toyota dealer, as they insist that they need to fit a new engine management system to go with the revised flywheel. Is this true? has anyone else run into this? Why is it necessary? if at all?

Tamariki

WHAT :eek: New ECU why...The DMF and Clutch have no bearing on this. Unless you are having other issues as well. What our your symptoms in the RAV...Vibration through clutch, Noise, Mettalic ratling, hard gear changes...

£2400 is a very steep price...bear in mind to do the DMF and Clutch work is between £1200 & 1800 quid as most is taken in labour charges...

If you can get a second opinion on the work needed

[bothwell_buyer]

I have a 2001 RAV4, only done 41000 miles, as I am retired, with all the usual noises. I too got the run around from Toyota, even though the car was not yet 6 years old. My question is this. I have been quoted £2400 for the replacement job by my local main Toyota dealer, as they insist that they need to fit a new engine management system to go with the revised flywheel. Is this true? has anyone else run into this? Why is it necessary? if at all?

Tamariki

Welcome to the house of fun Tamariki. The only forum to disguise good advice wi a lot of bull about other issues. Anyway, sadly, I had to retire 10 years ago at the young age of 44 due to a spinal injury incurred when I caught a guy who fell off some racking/scaffolding. I too get the usual noises, generally if I can't move to the toilet in time. Dinna worry aboot it but - it comes tae us all in time.

As regards yer RAV, the ECU has hee-haw to do with the clutch/flywheel. Taking my RAV 4.1 as an example of changing everything, its got a 3SGTE twin cam engine and wiring loom and ecu from an imported MR2; a competition clutch that's non-Toyota; a RAV gearbox and full 4 wheel drive; a custom-made exhaust and no cat fitted; a GT4 intercooler; changes to the alternator; changes to the cooling system; and a host of other things. The ECU was changed cos the ENGINE was changed to a totally different beast. The clutch; flywheel and gearbox had no bearing on the ECU.

Now, if you wanted to vamp up the performance after having a new flywheel, you could get the ECU re-mapped (a bit like changing yer medication) by a specialist of which I can recommend a team up here very highly.

I believe to get the work done, yer Toyota man would drop the whole engine/gearbox out. It is possible to cut down the work by removing the crossmembers below and dropping the engine a bit at a careful tilt to remove the gearbox to replace the clutch etc (I know cos I saw it done last week on mine) saving a fair bit of labour. But then the guys were experts. However if there is to be a payout from Toyota, then a dealer would need to do the work. But as you say the car is 6 years old so maybe Toyota won't cough up??? (Not my area of strength). I dumped my local Toyota dealer years ago after he was charging me for parts that were never fitted.

As already suggested, I'd try to get a 2nd opinion/quote and if the ECU comes up, ask why.

best of luck wi the RAV and in your retirement. Hope it doesn't follow my path of madness! 16 tablets a day and still mad!

[anchorman]

Be careful with this guys. There IS a modified ECU depending on the nature of the fault. If there is evidence of a lot of clutch slip they can fit an ECU which modifies the engine revs at the point of clutch take up.

The problem here is that I can't see what the dealer in question can see but if he can see enough heat related damage then he might opt to fit this ECU as a precautionary measure. Of course you could always insist that they only fit what is absolutely necessary to get the vehicle back on the road.

This is new information to me that has shown itself over my recent discussions. Unfortunately this vehicle does not qualify for warranty costs.

Cheers

[Tamariki]

Be careful with this guys. There IS a modified ECU depending on the nature of the fault. If there is evidence of a lot of clutch slip they can fit an ECU which modifies the engine revs at the point of clutch take up.

The problem here is that I can't see what the dealer in question can see but if he can see enough heat related damage then he might opt to fit this ECU as a precautionary measure. Of course you could always insist that they only fit what is absolutely necessary to get the vehicle back on the road.

This is new information to me that has shown itself over my recent discussions. Unfortunately this vehicle does not qualify for warranty costs.

Cheers

I had no experience of clutch slip, a bit rough on the take up, but some horrible grinding sounds when the engine was placed under load. The noise when starting from 2nd gear was horrendous. I had the clutch checked independantly, and they said the clutch was OK. Certainly the old ploy of starting against the handbrake proved this. It has now gone very quiet, and almost back to normal except for the odd rumble and vibration, particularly on tickover. No problems with changing gear, and the clutch still works fine.

[Ingolf]

I have a October 2002 Rav4 and had the DMF failure at 90000km´s, clutch worn at 90000km´s, turbo failure at 95000 km´s.

That was a bad year!

A bad year! That's an understatement, it's a wonder you every touched another Toyota after that.

That was October 2006 to April 2007 and I still have my RAV! I invested so much money in repairs ... I have to continue with it!

What I forgot: 2 new high pressure vales for the injection at 78000km´s and 2nd Turbo failure at 95.500km´s (bad replacement part).

[Fujisan]

I have a October 2002 Rav4 and had the DMF failure at 90000km´s, clutch worn at 90000km´s, turbo failure at 95000 km´s.

That was a bad year!

A bad year! That's an understatement, it's a wonder you every touched another Toyota after that.

That was October 2006 to April 2007 and I still have my RAV! I invested so much money in repairs ... I have to continue with it!

What I forgot: 2 new high pressure vales for the injection at 78000km´s and 2nd Turbo failure at 95.500km´s (bad replacement part).

I can fully understand and sympathize with you after sending so much money

My very best wishes for a better, troubleful free and peaceful, Winter and Spring 2007/08