Dual Mass Flywheels

[anchorman]

What is a Dual Mass Flywheel?

The flywheel is effectively a weight which is fastened to the end of the crankshaft of the engine. The power from the pistons tends to be created in “pulses” and the weight of the flywheel smoothes out these pulses by providing inertia to the rotating engine. As well as providing a weight the flywheel has a gear around its circumference on which the starter motor operates and is a convenient means of attaching the clutch which provides a variable connection to the transmission.

Modern diesel engines generate high torque and as a result they need extra smoothing out or “damping”. To help with this process a DMF (Dual Mass Flywheel) is fitted. This is effectively two flywheels that transmit the drive through a number of springs which cushion the drive to the transmission. Please look at the bottom of this post to see a description of what a flywheel does.

Is DMF failure inevitable?

No not necessarily. Some vehicles cover very high mileages and do not have any problems. Whether the DMF fails depends on what kind of duty the vehicle is subjected to and to some extent the way the vehicle is driven.

What happens when the DMF fails?

In practical terms, the first an owner will know is likely to be either a vibration and/or metallic jingling noise. The time these symptoms take to manifest themselves as a complete failure will vary dramatically. A complete failure will probably result in not being able to select any gears or in extreme cases a complete loss of drive. However, it is recommended that if any of the symptoms described are experienced that the vehicle is taken immediately to a suitably equipped workshop for further investigation. This may avoid the inconvenience of a roadside breakdown and the associated recovery costs.

The DMF on early models (up to those produced in August 2002) could under certain conditions come loose. This is the statement form Toyota GB regarding this matter;

”The issue regarding Dual Mass Flywheels relates to RAV4 CLA20 and CLA21 models (early diesel vehicles) and was found to be that under hard use (towing etc) the flywheel securing bolts were unable to provide sufficient tightness. This was remedied by an improved flywheel and revised fastening and tightening processes, which were introduced into RAV4 vehicle production from August 2002. The improvements were made from VIN numbers,

JT EYG20V400009863

JT EHG20V600026183

JT EHG20V606013132

With our commitment to customer satisfaction the warranty was extended for a period outside of the normal 3 year or 60,000 mile warranty. Because a production line fix was introduced from August 2002 claims would only be accepted on vehicles manufactured prior to this date. This extended period ran for 5 years or 100,000 miles (whichever comes first) and as such would therefore have expired in August 2007. I have to confirm that no extra time or mileage will be added to this warranty extension and all Toyota Centres are aware of the above information.

My recommendation would be that owners who experience a failure outside of this period should contact their Toyota Centre and if they feel it appropriate, contact would be made to our Customer Relations Department for their consideration.”

Some Toyota Centres have insisted that a new that I have the ECU changed as well as the DMF and this costs more. Why is this?

If there is evidence of heat related damage the Service Department may recommend that a re-programmed ECU is fitted to reduce the possibility of damage due to clutch slip. The Toyota Centre will advise you if any of the cost of this work can be met under the terms of the warranty.

Why is it so expensive to change the DMF?

The DMF is quite a complex part of your vehicle and it is fitted between the engine and the gearbox. To change it requires all of the gearbox and transfer box oil to be drained, then the front to rear drive shaft, transfer box , gearbox and all of the clutch components need to be removed. The vehicle has to be elevated and there is quite a lot of labour involved.

What are Toyota doing about this and are any extended warranties available?

Toyota are committed to ensuring that their vehicles perform reliably throughout their life and have provided this statement;

”It is always concerning to learn of any product failure and if this does occur then we do look to the reasons to understand why this has occurred and take steps to prevent this from happening again in the future. This usually follows a remedy to the source on the production line, along with a modified part (normally identified by a superseded part number). As you have correctly advised the issue regarding the failure of the Dual Mass Flywheel on Toyota RAV4's has involved a revised tightening procedure from August 2002 production along with a modified part now supplied to the Toyota Centre Network.

Should an owner suspect their vehicle has a problem then our advice would always be to take this along to their Toyota Centre to be remedied. Toyota Centres are kept updated through our technical and warranty teams to ensure they are always aware of the very latest information in respect of our model range and be able to advise owners on a recommended course of action should this affect their vehicle.

With any failures outside of the Toyota warranty, which is 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes sooner, and no extended warranty has been purchased, then this would be dealt with on an individual basis between that owner and their Toyota Centre. This would also include any requests for goodwill outside of the warranty period.”

Is this problem only applicable to Toyotas?

Absolutely not. A large number of vehicles from all manufacturers employ dual mass flywheels. To some extent their use is a necessary requirement with the evolution of modern high powered diesel engines to provide smooth operation and prevent any damage being caused to any other parts of the vehicle.

Do I have to take my RAV to a Toyota dealer for repair?

No. You can take your Toyota to any suitably equipped workshop. However, you should be sure that you have past experience of them or they come well recommended as the job is rather long and complicated. You can be sure that a Toyota workshop has all the necessary facilities to complete the work properly and a Toyota Centre will have access to guaranteed Genuine Parts and any information regarding modified or improved parts and processes that may not be available elsewhere.

I am thinking of buying a second hand RAV 4. Can I tell if the DMF is faulty?

You can test drive the vehicle and make sure it does not suffer from any excessive vibration. It is highly unlikely that you could detect any problems unless the failure was imminent. If in any doubt take the vehicle to a suitably equipped workshop for a professional opinion. Most reputable dealers will provide a suitable warranty and motoring organisations will test the vehicle for a fee.

Should the possibility of any problems stop me from buying a diesel engined RAV 4?

No. These are generally a very reliable and highly regarded vehicle that will provide many years of trouble free service.

This section gives more information on the role of the flywheel and the DMF

The flywheel has to be heavy as it maintains the inertia of the engine. When the four pistons come down on the power stroke it is like they are being shot down the barrel of a cannon and they all take it in turns - 1,3,4,2. The trouble is that the next one in sequence does not start until the previous one as right at the bottom of the stroke so the turning moment on the crankshaft is very "lumpy". The crankshaft is like the pedals on a bicycle (except instead of two there are four in a row), it turns the reciprocating (up and down) motion of the pistons into rotary motion that is eventually connected to the wheels. In order to make the engine rotate smoothly, a flywheel which is nothing more than a very heavy round weight is bolted onto the rear of the crankshaft. When the mass of this flywheel gets spinning it helps to remove the "lumpyness" of when one piston gets to the botttom of a cylinder and the next one being fired from the top. In very old single and double cylinder engines it had to be huge to keep the engine turning. On this traction engine it is up by the driving cab;

You can see it very clearly on this single cylinder steam engine;

You can imagine that without this flywheel to carry the piston around to the next power stroke the engine would stop. In really big engines you need a really big flywheel and in this mill engine at Wigan Pier it weighs 70 tons;

Its hard for you to get a feel for just how big that is but if you look to the lower right of the picture there is a large double doorway into the mill. The flywheel has to be massive because it drives thousands of machines in the factory and as it is a spinning mill it is important that they turn at a constant speed.

Now we relate the role of the flywheel to the D4D engine. In most cars the flywheel would be a relatively simple affair - just a weight as already stated but these small modern diesels are phenominally powerful for their size and the power strokes are effectively very "lumpy". You can imagine that if you fired the pedals down on your bike with a cannon instead of pushing them with your legs then the bike would be very jerky! Of course you could fit an even bigger flywheel on an engine to smooth out the lumps but there are limitations because;

• They absorb more of the engines power, it would rev up slowly and also slow down slowly which effects performance and slows down the gear changing process by having to wait for the speeds of different gears to synchronise.
  
• They use more fuel.
  
• They are difficult to accommodate.
  

So the way that modern diesels are smoothed out is with a Dual Mass Flywheel similar to the one in this diagram;

You can see that the flywheel is in two pieces. One is connected to the pistons (and dont forget that there are four pistons) and then the other is connected to the transmission via a set of annular springs around the circumference of the flywheel. These springs absorb the lumpyness of the pistons and transmit smooth rotary motion to the transmission. It makes the car feel smoother to drive and almost eliminates any vibration that would cause knock on damage to the clutch and gearbox.

In this picture of a failed DMF belonging to one of our members, you can see that the bolts have become loose and the resultant damage around the eight fixing holes as the flywheel eventually worked loose.

This problem was addressed during August 2002 and should no longer occur. However, as the DMF is no longer a simple one piece design and has become more complex it is not impossible for it to fail in other ways. It should not be confused with clutch wear or failure which is considered a consumable wearing part. This short clip of a VW DMF shows the result of the drive springs failing;

and this is a good one but note there is still some play;

This is a very nice animation of how the DMF is assembled and how it turns big vibrations into small ones;

Please respond seperately to this post.

[SallyB]

Dear Anchorman,

Thank you for this most interesting posting. I have a RAV4 DVD from the second half of 2002 with about 58k miles on the clock. It is currently in the garage.

The symptoms:

- sounded very "rumbly" as if the exhaust had gone and then had gear-change problems;

- told by the garage that the clutch had gone; and

- clutch replaced just before the New Year but after a short period of time (<30 miles) the car would not engage gear (like pressing the clutch pedal down).

The local garage has now sent this to a local gearbox specialist. Could this be a dual mass flywheel problem?

Best regards

Sally

[BRIAN R]

I read your article with interest and can identify with all aspects,as I own an '02 D-4D from new with 51,000 miles to date which has been problematical in many ways necessitating renewal of clutch x2,turbocharger and rear brakes plus other items,all under warranty. Re the DMF this was replaced in Sept' '07 F.O.C. together with all associated parts inc.E.C.U.and I am currently in the position where clutch judder, difficult gear selection from standstill and audible noises are apparant once again.The dealer has contacted Toyota and informed me that a one year warranty applies to the work done last Sept. but goes on to point out that if the clutch was stripped out and no problem was visible then I wouldbe liable for the bill.Given that an estimate for the original replacement was £1,900 I do not want to even risk this eventually.Any constructive advice,thoughts or advice would be welcome.

BRIAN R

:( :(

What is a Dual Mass Flywheel?

The flywheel is effectively a weight which is fastened to the end of the crankshaft of the engine. The power from the pistons tends to be created in “pulses” and the weight of the flywheel smoothes out these pulses by providing inertia to the rotating engine. As well as providing a weight the flywheel has a gear around its circumference on which the starter motor operates and is a convenient means of attaching the clutch which provides a variable connection to the transmission.

Modern diesel engines generate high torque and as a result they need extra smoothing out or “damping”. To help with this process a DMF (Dual Mass Flywheel) is fitted. This is effectively two flywheels that transmit the drive through a number of springs which cushion the drive to the transmission. Please look at the bottom of this post to see a description of what a flywheel does.

Is DMF failure inevitable?

No not necessarily. Some vehicles cover very high mileages and do not have any problems. Whether the DMF fails depends on what kind of duty the vehicle is subjected to and to some extent the way the vehicle is driven.

What happens when the DMF fails?

In practical terms, the first an owner will know is likely to be either a vibration and/or metallic jingling noise. The time these symptoms take to manifest themselves as a complete failure will vary dramatically. A complete failure will probably result in not being able to select any gears or in extreme cases a complete loss of drive. However, it is recommended that if any of the symptoms described are experienced that the vehicle is taken immediately to a suitably equipped workshop for further investigation. This may avoid the inconvenience of a roadside breakdown and the associated recovery costs.

The DMF on early models (up to those produced in August 2002) could under certain conditions come loose. This is the statement form Toyota GB regarding this matter;

”The issue regarding Dual Mass Flywheels relates to RAV4 CLA20 and CLA21 models (early diesel vehicles) and was found to be that under hard use (towing etc) the flywheel securing bolts were unable to provide sufficient tightness. This was remedied by an improved flywheel and revised fastening and tightening processes, which were introduced into RAV4 vehicle production from August 2002. The improvements were made from VIN numbers,

JT EYG20V400009863

JT EHG20V600026183

JT EHG20V606013132

With our commitment to customer satisfaction the warranty was extended for a period outside of the normal 3 year or 60,000 mile warranty. Because a production line fix was introduced from August 2002 claims would only be accepted on vehicles manufactured prior to this date. This extended period ran for 5 years or 100,000 miles (whichever comes first) and as such would therefore have expired in August 2007. I have to confirm that no extra time or mileage will be added to this warranty extension and all Toyota Centres are aware of the above information.

My recommendation would be that owners who experience a failure outside of this period should contact their Toyota Centre and if they feel it appropriate, contact would be made to our Customer Relations Department for their consideration.”

Some Toyota Centres have insisted that a new that I have the ECU changed as well as the DMF and this costs more. Why is this?

If there is evidence of heat related damage the Service Department may recommend that a re-programmed ECU is fitted to reduce the possibility of damage due to clutch slip. The Toyota Centre will advise you if any of the cost of this work can be met under the terms of the warranty.

Why is it so expensive to change the DMF?

The DMF is quite a complex part of your vehicle and it is fitted between the engine and the gearbox. To change it requires all of the gearbox and transfer box oil to be drained, then the front to rear drive shaft, transfer box , gearbox and all of the clutch components need to be removed. The vehicle has to be elevated and there is quite a lot of labour involved.

What are Toyota doing about this and are any extended warranties available?

Toyota are committed to ensuring that their vehicles perform reliably throughout their life and have provided this statement;

”It is always concerning to learn of any product failure and if this does occur then we do look to the reasons to understand why this has occurred and take steps to prevent this from happening again in the future. This usually follows a remedy to the source on the production line, along with a modified part (normally identified by a superseded part number). As you have correctly advised the issue regarding the failure of the Dual Mass Flywheel on Toyota RAV4's has involved a revised tightening procedure from August 2002 production along with a modified part now supplied to the Toyota Centre Network.

Should an owner suspect their vehicle has a problem then our advice would always be to take this along to their Toyota Centre to be remedied. Toyota Centres are kept updated through our technical and warranty teams to ensure they are always aware of the very latest information in respect of our model range and be able to advise owners on a recommended course of action should this affect their vehicle.

With any failures outside of the Toyota warranty, which is 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes sooner, and no extended warranty has been purchased, then this would be dealt with on an individual basis between that owner and their Toyota Centre. This would also include any requests for goodwill outside of the warranty period.”

Is this problem only applicable to Toyotas?

Absolutely not. A large number of vehicles from all manufacturers employ dual mass flywheels. To some extent their use is a necessary requirement with the evolution of modern high powered diesel engines to provide smooth operation and prevent any damage being caused to any other parts of the vehicle.

Do I have to take my RAV to a Toyota dealer for repair?

No. You can take your Toyota to any suitably equipped workshop. However, you should be sure that you have past experience of them or they come well recommended as the job is rather long and complicated. You can be sure that a Toyota workshop has all the necessary facilities to complete the work properly and a Toyota Centre will have access to guaranteed Genuine Parts and any information regarding modified or improved parts and processes that may not be available elsewhere.

I am thinking of buying a second hand RAV 4. Can I tell if the DMF is faulty?

You can test drive the vehicle and make sure it does not suffer from any excessive vibration. It is highly unlikely that you could detect any problems unless the failure was imminent. If in any doubt take the vehicle to a suitably equipped workshop for a professional opinion. Most reputable dealers will provide a suitable warranty and motoring organisations will test the vehicle for a fee.

Should the possibility of any problems stop me from buying a diesel engined RAV 4?

No. These are generally a very reliable and highly regarded vehicle that will provide many years of trouble free service.

This section gives more information on the role of the flywheel and the DMF

The flywheel has to be heavy as it maintains the inertia of the engine. When the four pistons come down on the power stroke it is like they are being shot down the barrel of a cannon and they all take it in turns - 1,3,4,2. The trouble is that the next one in sequence does not start until the previous one as right at the bottom of the stroke so the turning moment on the crankshaft is very "lumpy". The crankshaft is like the pedals on a bicycle (except instead of two there are four in a row), it turns the reciprocating (up and down) motion of the pistons into rotary motion that is eventually connected to the wheels. In order to make the engine rotate smoothly, a flywheel which is nothing more than a very heavy round weight is bolted onto the rear of the crankshaft. When the mass of this flywheel gets spinning it helps to remove the "lumpyness" of when one piston gets to the botttom of a cylinder and the next one being fired from the top. In very old single and double cylinder engines it had to be huge to keep the engine turning. On this traction engine it is up by the driving cab;

You can see it very clearly on this single cylinder steam engine;

You can imagine that without this flywheel to carry the piston around to the next power stroke the engine would stop. In really big engines you need a really big flywheel and in this mill engine at Wigan Pier it weighs 70 tons;

Its hard for you to get a feel for just how big that is but if you look to the lower right of the picture there is a large double doorway into the mill. The flywheel has to be massive because it drives thousands of machines in the factory and as it is a spinning mill it is important that they turn at a constant speed.

Now we relate the role of the flywheel to the D4D engine. In most cars the flywheel would be a relatively simple affair - just a weight as already stated but these small modern diesels are phenominally powerful for their size and the power strokes are effectively very "lumpy". You can imagine that if you fired the pedals down on your bike with a cannon instead of pushing them with your legs then the bike would be very jerky! Of course you could fit an even bigger flywheel on an engine to smooth out the lumps but there are limitations because;

• They absorb more of the engines power, it would rev up slowly and also slow down slowly which effects performance and slows down the gear changing process by having to wait for the speeds of different gears to synchronise.
  
• They use more fuel.
  
• They are difficult to accommodate.
  

So the way that modern diesels are smoothed out is with a Dual Mass Flywheel similar to the one in this diagram;

You can see that the flywheel is in two pieces. One is connected to the pistons (and dont forget that there are four pistons) and then the other is connected to the transmission via a set of annular springs around the circumference of the flywheel. These springs absorb the lumpyness of the pistons and transmit smooth rotary motion to the transmission. It makes the car feel smoother to drive and almost eliminates any vibration that would cause knock on damage to the clutch and gearbox.

In this picture of a failed DMF belonging to one of our members, you can see that the bolts have become loose and the resultant damage around the eight fixing holes as the flywheel eventually worked loose.

This problem was addressed during August 2002 and should no longer occur. However, as the DMF is no longer a simple one piece design and has become more complex it is not impossible for it to fail in other ways. It should not be confused with clutch wear or failure which is considered a consumable wearing part. This short clip of a VW DMF shows the result of the drive springs failing;

Finally this video clip shows an animated video of the engine being assembled and then you can see it working;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EMeQxImNmk...feature=related

Please respond seperately to this post.

[anchorman]

Hi Brian.

Welcome to the club and sorry to hear that your RAV is being troublesome.

Having read through your post I can't really see what option you have. You are going to have to address this problem one way or another as it sounds too serious to leave. I believe you are in quite a good situation in that all the nasty stuff is under warranty and to be honest thats what it sounds like to me. Don't think that because all the work has been done that nothing else of a similar nature could go wrong again. Statistically if something is going to go wrong it will do so when it is very old or very new (sometimes referred to as bathtub effect if you can imagine graphing risk over time). Add to that somebody has worked on it and that is not meant to be disrespectful to who did it but the fact remains that there is increased risk from it.

On the positive side a large amount of that £1900 bill was parts so even if it is stripped there is only the labour to pay albeit it will still be expensive (I guess about half). However, it is somewhat unfair of them to threaten you with that as it is up to them to diagnose it properly. You have to take their word that something other is not to blame when all the symptoms say it is.

I would let them get on with it. If they pull it apart and it is the DMF then you are covered. If they pull it apart and it is something else then you have to take that on the chin as long as that something is inside that area (needed the gearbox out etc) and definately not associated with the last work - be sure to ask to see any parts they claim to be faulty and are not part of the previous work.

They should be confident in their diagnosis and all other possibilities taken out of the equation first.

Please keep us informed.

Good luck.

[Nev in Bolton]

Quote name='BRIAN R' date='Feb 13 2008, 09:43 PM' post='722134']

I read your article with interest and can identify with all aspects,as I own an '02 D-4D from new with 51,000 miles to date which has been problematical in many ways necessitating renewal of clutch x2,turbocharger and rear brakes plus other items,all under warranty. Re the DMF this was replaced in Sept' '07 F.O.C. together with all associated parts inc.E.C.U.and I am currently in the position where clutch judder, difficult gear selection from standstill and audible noises are apparant once again.The dealer has contacted Toyota and informed me that a one year warranty applies to the work done last Sept. but goes on to point out that if the clutch was stripped out and no problem was visible then I wouldbe liable for the bill.Given that an estimate for the original replacement was £1,900 I do not want to even risk this eventually.Any constructive advice,thoughts or advice would be welcome.

BRIAN R

I have been told by the mechanic at my local garage (who I trust implicity) that my RAV4 is suffering the onset of DMF failure. I therefore need to take the car to the local Toyota Garage for confirmation of this. The car was first registered in August 2002 and has since travelled 48K miles. Toyota's extended warranty for the DMF failure problem expired in August 2007 and it was interesting to read that your car had the DMF replaced in September 2007 which is outside of the warranty period.

To strengthen my inevitable argument with Toyota about who should pay for the DMF repair, could you please let me know the name of the Toyota Centre where the work was carried out.

[Gaz3395]

Hi Anchorman,

I too am in the same boat, I have rav D-4D Aug 02 with 63000 on the clock, I thought I was having trouble with the exhaust, got it checked out and found out it was perfectly ok, the noise started to get worse when accelerating especially under strain, now it seems to be getting even worse, and when I pull away it rattles like mad, started making a funny noise at stand still and especially when i put it in first and start to lift the clutch.

When I took it to my Toyota dealer they test drove it and said it looks like it is the DMF and looking at £1500 to £1700 as I don’t have an extended warranty and the car is 5 ½ yrs with 63000 miles.

I then took it to a local gearbox specialist who had a look at it and said it could be the DMF but weren’t sure, they thought it could be the transfer unit with it being constant 4 wheel drive. They have quoted me £1200 +vat, but have said to remember they have not diagnosed the problem.

Toyota customer relations have just informed me that as a goodwill gesture the warranty on the flywheel has been extended to 5 yrs or 100K which ever comes first but I’m 6months out of that too and they won’t budge, can’t for the life of me see why they have extended the mileage and not the yrs!

So… my problem now is do I pay up to £1700 at Toyota, or £1410 at the gearbox garage. £300 is a bit of a difference and neither has said it’s definitely the DMF.

Update is my Toyota dealer has been in touch with Toyota GB and are waiting for an answer from them as they say every case is on its own merrit......

[BRIAN R]

Quote name='BRIAN R' date='Feb 13 2008, 09:43 PM' post='722134']

I read your article with interest and can identify with all aspects,as I own an '02 D-4D from new with 51,000 miles to date which has been problematical in many ways necessitating renewal of clutch x2,turbocharger and rear brakes plus other items,all under warranty. Re the DMF this was replaced in Sept' '07 F.O.C. together with all associated parts inc.E.C.U.and I am currently in the position where clutch judder, difficult gear selection from standstill and audible noises are apparant once again.The dealer has contacted Toyota and informed me that a one year warranty applies to the work done last Sept. but goes on to point out that if the clutch was stripped out and no problem was visible then I wouldbe liable for the bill.Given that an estimate for the original replacement was £1,900 I do not want to even risk this eventually.Any constructive advice,thoughts or advice would be welcome.

BRIAN R

I have been told by the mechanic at my local garage (who I trust implicity) that my RAV4 is suffering the onset of DMF failure. I therefore need to take the car to the local Toyota Garage for confirmation of this. The car was first registered in August 2002 and has since travelled 48K miles. Toyota's extended warranty for the DMF failure problem expired in August 2007 and it was interesting to read that your car had the DMF replaced in September 2007 which is outside of the warranty period.

To strengthen my inevitable argument with Toyota about who should pay for the DMF repair, could you please let me know the name of the Toyota Centre where the work was carried out.

[Nev in Bolton]

Dear Brian,

I have just been informed by email that you have replied to my query, but can find no sign of it in my inbox or in the topic.

You can re-send it by clicking on my name and selecting "send message" in the drop down menu. Alternatively send to ngrady@talktalk.net.

Regards,

Nev

[anchorman]

Hi Anchorman,

I too am in the same boat, I have rav D-4D Aug 02 with 63000 on the clock, I thought I was having trouble with the exhaust, got it checked out and found out it was perfectly ok, the noise started to get worse when accelerating especially under strain, now it seems to be getting even worse, and when I pull away it rattles like mad, started making a funny noise at stand still and especially when i put it in first and start to lift the clutch.

When I took it to my Toyota dealer they test drove it and said it looks like it is the DMF and looking at £1500 to £1700 as I don’t have an extended warranty and the car is 5 ½ yrs with 63000 miles.

I then took it to a local gearbox specialist who had a look at it and said it could be the DMF but weren’t sure, they thought it could be the transfer unit with it being constant 4 wheel drive. They have quoted me £1200 +vat, but have said to remember they have not diagnosed the problem.

Toyota customer relations have just informed me that as a goodwill gesture the warranty on the flywheel has been extended to 5 yrs or 100K which ever comes first but I’m 6months out of that too and they won’t budge, can’t for the life of me see why they have extended the mileage and not the yrs!

So… my problem now is do I pay up to £1700 at Toyota, or £1410 at the gearbox garage. £300 is a bit of a difference and neither has said it’s definitely the DMF.

Update is my Toyota dealer has been in touch with Toyota GB and are waiting for an answer from them as they say every case is on its own merrit......

I guess you need to wait for TGB to respond.

I have never heard of a transfer box going wrong and I don't like the sound of "specialist" anything unless you know them well. It might be better if you are eventually forced down that route to go to a reputable independent garage.

Wait to see what Toyota say, if they make a derisory offer like a free service you might be better to find that good independent.

You never know Toyota might make you a very good offer.

Let us know how you go on.

Regards

[Gaz3395]

Thanks Anchorman,

I've since spoken to my Toyota dealer to see if they have heard anything back and they informed me not yet but it can take a while as every case is looked at seperately to take into account other work done, milage and service history etc and that i should just bring it in for the work and anything i get from Toyota GB will be a bonus....

Gaz

[Daftrunner]

Hi, I am not sure if this is the right place to post this, however,i thought I would add this to your post... I just received the news today that my DMF has failed and it is going to cost some stupid amount of money to get it resolved.

Basically what happened was that without warning the car lost drive and I had to pull into the side of the road. The clutch was working fine and it was as though the car wanted to pull away but would not. basically the AA took me to a local garage who informed me the DMF is the likely cause of the problem. My car is an 04 XT3 D4D with 60900 miles on the clock. It has been used for commuting to work (motorway) and has never towed anything in its life.

I was advised by my local garage to give toyota a call and see whether they would do anything about this issue as it seems that 60K is not the correct mileage to replace the flywheel. Basically, Toyota are playing this very close to their chests. They moreor less admitted there is stil a problem with this DMF (even on cars as late as mine). Then they told me that they would have fixed the car for free if it was under 60K. But since mine is 60900 they would not cover it. I explained that I am a many generation owner of toyotas and I love my Rav 4, but they more or less told me "best of luck" and good riddens...

So, here is the bit that gets me. I dont mind the repair cost of the DMF, But I do still have a problem that even after fixing it, the problem is just waiting to jump out and get me in the future. I love the Rav. I loved my MR2. I bought the RAV because the engine was deemed great.... I have put up with the other issues, alloys bubling, dashboard rattles, brakes every 20K... But this has really ruined my RAV 4 experience. It is a shame.. I am gutted.

So, Be warned. from my experience. if you own a D4d the DMF is awaiting to get you. Or more important. If your Rav is less than 60K... get it in for a DMF check. Hope my experience helps.... But I would love to know why this problem has turned up.. The only clue I got was that Customer relations mentioned something about an ECU change for the future to help resolve the issue.... If any one could help me stop this happening again in the future I would be grateful. I would love to keep the Rav... but it looks like a future trade in....

[Pitcaple]

My car is a 2003 D4d with 45500 miles on the clock and as you can guess the flywheel broke. It all started a month ago when I noticed a loud roar when accelerating, bit like a blown exhaust, and also at tickover it felt very lumpy as if one cylinder was missing. This lasted about 10 days before the drive failed completely.

Anyway, after seeing all these postings about the DMF etc I called Toyota UK who confirmed that my car was one of the models affected and that it might be covered under their extended warranty.

I booked the car into the local Toyota dealer for an "investigation". This weekend I picked it up, all fixed, new clutch, flywheel, ECU, etc. and the best bit - NO CHARGE !! Toyota UK have picked up the bill for everything.

The extended warranty for this fault covers cars up to 5 years old, my car will be 5 years old next week so just made it.

I am very grateful to the people on this forum who made me aware of this fault and also to Toyota UK for fixing it free as normally I would have put it to a cheaper independent garage.

:)

[Gaz3395]

Just Got my car back after the DMF repairs,

final bill came to just under £2500.00 ..........

my local toyota dealer had tried to claim back some if not all of the costs from Toyota GB but as my car was 5yrs and 6 months with 63000 miles, i fell outside the extended warranty for the faulty flywheel.

my local dealer managed to give me 10% off the parts and labour so my final bill came to £2180.00

still a breath taking bill, but what could i do

the EPU had to be replaced along with the software so that it would recognise the new flywheel, if the EPU was not fitted they said the new DMF would prob last 12 months then fail and it would not be under warranty as the EPU should have been fitted with it.

they did wash and hoover my car though...!!!!!!!!

suppose i can't blame the garage, it's Toyota GB who need to gain a set of balls from somewhere and accept responsibility.

Gaz

any donations greatfully accepted.

[Nev in Bolton]

Gaz3395...that's an awful lot of money!!

The update on my DMF problem is that RRG Toyota Bolton did diagnose the onset of DMF failure and they applied to Toyota GB for a Post Warranty Authorisation repair, either full payment or a contribution to it. I must add that they have been extremely helpful and sympathetic to the problem, but of course they are restricted in what they can do by the intransigence of Toyota. I personally phoned Toyota Customer Relations and spoke to a person there who called himself Matt. His saturnine demeanour over the phone just added to the gloom of the conversation! No help whatsoever from that direction needless to say! Following this RRG Toyota offered 15% discount off the parts and labour for the repair.

Still dissatisfied, on the advice of Consumer Direct (http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/about/), with whom I had discussed the situation over the phone, I sent RRG Toyota a letter under the Sale Of Goods Act claiming that the car was not of satisfactory quality and not fit for purpose when it was first sold to me and claiming the full cost of the repair. Apparently you have 6 years from the date of the sale to make a claim. I gave them 7 days in which to respond. Consumer Direct had given me a case number and passed the details of it to the Trading Standards office in my area. They said that if RRG Toyota had not responded at the end of the 7 days I should get back in touch with them and they would pursue it further from the Trading Standards angle.

The letter was sent by 1st Class Recorded/Signed For Post and would have been received by RRG Toyota on Monday 17th March. Three days later on Thurday 20th March I got a phone call from their Service Manager who told me that in order to maintain good customer relations, they will do what's needed to repair the DMF on my car at their cost. He said that they had sent a copy of my letter to Toyota GB who still refused to contribute anything to the cost of the repair. He would be in touch with me after Easter to arrange the repair.

That was Thursday last week and this morning a further phone conversation confirmed that the parts have been ordered and he will ring when they want the car in for the repair.

It's a bit of a hollow victory really. Toyota RRG in Bolton is wholly an excellent company to deal with, and it was this company, as supplier of the goods that I pursued under the Sale Of Goods Act when really the whole problem lies at the door of Toyota and it should be that company which stands the cost of the repair. What I don't know is whether RRG Toyota are repairing the car out of goodwill or how much of a threat they viewed the letter I sent.

Anyway if anyone reading this who has the same problems wants to pursue their Toyota dealer under the Sale Of Goods Act I'll happily send you a copy of my letter to use as a basis for your own. Email me at ngrady@talktalk.net.

[Daftrunner]

Update to my case as stated above...

Facts: 2004 Rav 4 D4d 61k - failled DMF. Cost of repair (with other bits, timing Belt, Clutch, 60K Service, Water pump).... £1800

Toyota response to my plea for help. Nothing. I have a pleasant letter from The Customer Relations Team Manager of Toyota UK stating that a failed DMF at 61K is what toyota consider wear and tear of the vehicle. Also, when pressed on the fact that I have added the same toyota part to my car and I should expect another failure in about 2-4 years they stated that there has been nothing changed to the DMF that would stop this from happening.

I have been in touch with the SMMT (motoring trading standards) who inform me that basically they cannot really help as I have already paid for the repair. I have been in touch with Trading standards who basically stated that the car is running and that there is nothing they could advise other than a small claim against toyota, which would cost me about £75... but since there is nothing to state this is an early life failure (other than common knowledge) then I would be hard pressed to get anything.

So, in a nutshell. Toyota built a car with a DMF designed to fail at 61K which should be handled as wear and tear and the consumer should front the bill... My point is that this information should be made aware at the point of sale. When I walked into the dealership I knew what services were required, what parts would fail when etc, however, I do not recall seeing a DMF on the list next to my timing belt service at 60K - did anyone else spot that... is it in the small print..

The whole thing pisses me off to be honest. And to think Toyota market the Hi-Lux as Indestructable....

Their slogan should be changed from "The car in front is a toyota" to "The car broken down in Front is a Toyota"....

Looks like the Rav will be trade in fodder..

PS: I think there should be a collective claim against Toyota from all the people out there who have suffered this issue. Anyone got any good ideas how to collectively get something together? B)

[anchorman]

I know how you feel about this. I also get a bit confused about Toyota's policy on DMFs. On one hand they have issued a statement saying the warranty expires after 5 years and then we have reports saying the warranty has been honoured in full albeit the mileage is below 60k. I wonder why you can't have it when yours has done more than 60k but the age is less than 5 years? Bewildering.

To be honest I didn't expect that the flywheel has changed since the modded one of 2002 (and it is unclear whether this mod was restricted to just the fixing bolts). What I can say is that if anyone can establish whether the warranty is going to be honoured before they have the work done then try to locate a good independent who tend to have much lower labour rates - loyalty is a 2 way thing and a DMF kit complete with clutch is available from Valeo for about £595 inc VAT. This is the OE manufacturer so you just need somebody to fit it unless you are brave enough to do it yourself.

What I would gaurd against now is doing something rash. It is easy when feeling quite bitter to go and trade it in for something else but it won't hurt Toyota as they had their sale when the vehicle was new. It will provide a very nice buy for somebody else though - a good second hand RAV with a new DMF at your expense is just what they are looking for.

To some extent we are all at the mercy of the DMF. Those of us with 4.3s are still waiting to see what will happen when these cars get some big mileage on them. But the DMF is a very necessary thing and a modern direct injection diesel engine would soon destroy the transmission without the DMF dampening the shock/vibration. And for those clever cloggs who bought conversions to solid flywheels off eBay, well rest assured that will come back and bite their behind sooner or later.

The next question is what would you have as an alternative to a RAV? Most of these diesels have DMF's and some are worse than others. I understand X Trails have problems (even bigger ones with turbos and front callipers siezing) and the biggest and most expensive nightmare is with new Mini diesels. Like all things - TVs, washing machines and many other consumer items did, DMFs are in an evolutionary phase and will no doubt settle but some failures are a statistical certainty.

I think faced with the same dilemma I would at least dwell on it for a while and try and make the most of your newly restored vehicle.

Keep your chin up mate.

[appy martin]

Hello everybody

I've just bought a 5 year old D4D Vx with 65000 on the clock when I took it for a test drive I noticed a rattly sound when I accelerated. I mentioned this to the dealer who said it was the exhaust and he would look into it. when I rang him back he said his mechanic had looked at the exhaust and said it was alright , I wasnt satisfied so I took it for another test drive and called in at the Toyota main dealers who said they thought it was the DMF and it would be expensive to fix they quoted me £1700 I related this to the dealer who ummed and arred ,I said I would have the car if he fixed the DMf, to cut a long story short he agreed and had it replaced . I consequently bought the car. I am very happy with it and it runs very nicely, what I am a bit worried about is I dont think they will have replaced the EPU and I have read what the member wrote about it failing again in 12 months time , should I take out a warranty to cover me for this and maybe other things that can go wrong , I have found one that covers most things for about £210 per year is this reasonable what do you think ?

[Daftrunner]

My DMF was replaced, but I do not know anything about an EPU change? Do you mean ECU? Does anyone know whether there is a change that has to happen with a DMF swap?

Anchorman,

Dont tell Toyota, but even after the hassle of the DMF, I still think the Rav 4 is the best small 4x4 on the market. My plan is to run this one until the end of the summer, let things cool off and trade it in again... maybe for another Rav 4.... if I have cooled off with them..... For anyone who is thinking of a Rav 4 - the DMF is a definite problem on this vehicle and probably other toyotas running the DMF, but in 4 years the Rav has never coughed spluttered, let me down or failed in any way and it is a great car... I do have to admit I like Toyotas as I tried in every way to break my MR2 but could not... that car seemed indestructable...

So, if anyone is interested in a 04 Rav 4 XT3 with leather 70K (by end of summer).... look out for the ad... coming soon... :D

[anchorman]

Daftrunner

Good, I'm glad you see it that way especially now it is in good running order. This an emotive issue and as I said I honestly know how you feel. It seems unfair when some get honoured and some don't - it makes you wonder what the decision making criterion is. However, it would be unfair to expect a life long warranty and on other makes (Ford, Vauxhall and many others) its 3 years or 60k and that is that - no discussion. However, given that the flywheel has traditionally been considered a "life of the car" part it would just taste a bit better if some sort of gesture was made.

That said, although they have made a slightly varying line in the sand on DMFs they are still recalling 4.1s for defective springs and standing the full costs so their ethics aren't all bad.

To both of you the ECU change is something that is sometimes undertaken if the dealer can see some evidence of rough handling and sometimes done as a belt and braces measure. It simply senses the power take up from the engine sensor inputs and limits the amount of power until the clutch is fully engaged (there is no input from the clutch only the way the engine reacts to the take up from the clutch). If we apply a bit of logic to this then you have to remember that there are 1000s of these things out there and not all suffer DMF failure but if you are unlucky enough to have it again then you are looking at another 5 years or 60k - ish.

The subject of warranties has been debated many times. Some swear by them, derive some peace of mind by having them and in some cases have reported some very good fortune by having them. My opinion and I stress it is my opinion is that these warranty companies are very wealthy and that is because they have pitched their policies at a level which statistically keeps them on top. I prefer to spend my £210 towards a repair IF it should be required. You have to decide which makes you feel better.

I have an unfair advantage on some that if my DMF fails outside warranty I will change it myself.

One final comment and that is when Toyota eventually convert every transmission to automatic - and they will, this issue will with time, resolve itself. Not so many years ago many thought that the humble choke cable could never be replaced.

[rav4nrg]

thank you again Anchorman..

I think I know the problem with my NRG.. It's got 2 b this DMF thingy.. My NRG is a 51 plate. You mentioned a modded DMF in 2002. Are you saying the earlier models dont have this DMF problem anchorman??

daftrunner, I'll sign your petition. In fact maybe we should contact that watchdog program. Even if to warn everyone else about Toyota's scandulous secret.

The symptoms seem the same as all the ones mentioned here... weird noises for a couple of weeks. Noisy when cruising down the highways. And as I used to role by all the other cars on the motorway thinking, ya shoulda bought a rav4. These things never breakdown, I know wish I put up a notice saying "beware" yo all those other rav4 drivers staring at me on the hardshoulder of the M25. Even serviced the car thinking that was the problems with this car i even thought of nicknaming Duracell.

So Anchorman. When shall I bring my rav4 around. In fact, I think you could make a right little earner. Do U need a partner?? :D

Would it not be cheaper to just replace the total gear box with the flywheel ??

I cant believe this!! nearly £2000. :( I'm sure it will be easier to invest in a new car?? I love toyota's but it's more tempting to get a 7 seater mitsubishi with less VED to pay..

[rav4nrg]

Btw Anchorman. What are your views on an automatic version of the rav4.

Are there any problems with the aotomatic versions??

[rav4nrg]

What I can say is that if anyone can establish whether the warranty is going to be honoured before they have the work done then try to locate a good independent who tend to have much lower labour rates - loyalty is a 2 way thing and a DMF kit complete with clutch is available from Valeo for about £595 inc VAT. This is the OE manufacturer so you just need somebody to fit it unless you are brave enough to do it yourself.

Have you got a contact number for valeo anchorman?? Much obliged !!

[anchorman]

Easy tiger!

If you read through the posts you will see I have tried to maintain a balanced opinion and stressed that these problems occur on all makes with direct injection engines and that if anything the Toyota warranty is a better gesture than any other makes I know of (unless anyone knows otherwise). If you get a mitsi with a diesel it will almost certainly have a dmf and it may be worse than a toyota one. The Outlander has a VW or PSA engine and both are known to suffer.

A quick review but all the details are above, vehicles from the VIN nos shown have modified fixings that as far as we know are more reliable than pre August 2002 models. If your vehicle is less than 5 years old or less than 60k, despite the official line are still being paid for under warranty so maybe you are OK.

Check everything out and if you have any questions come back to us.

Cheers

[Gaz3395]

Sign me up for the petition, Toyota GB had the cheek to send me a customer questionaire asking how pleased I am with my £2500 repair bill......i've just come back down from the ceiling.

needless to say I will be putting what I think and putting a letter in with it for what good it will do....

Gaz

[pessimistic]

I started to get some odd rattling noises from my RAV last week, so decided to drop it into my local toyota dealer for a service (albeit 3000 miles earlier than necessary). They called today and told me that they reckon the DMF is about to fail. I have a 2.0ltr D4D registered on 17/3/2003 with 57000 on the clock. The variant is a CLA21(W) with a VIN of JtheG20V10003****.

Looking at previous posts I'm expecting the dealer to say I have crapped out of the 5yr/60k miles extended warranty by about 6 weeks.

Needless to say I am far from happy with the prospect of facing a megabucks repair bill for a known fault. All the more galling given that Toyota are aware of the weakness but have not seen fit to inform people or revise the service schedule....

I will post with an update tomorrow..........