Dual Mass Flywheels

[Ravmania]

62k on the clock of my 53 Rav 4 D-4D and I have all the symptoms of DMF failure, hurrah!

While obviously over the moon I was wondering if there is any way of telling the difference between clutch failure and dmf failure.

My symptoms are a jangling like sound as if a ball has been dropped onto a roulette wheel - mainly and most severely when in neutral, and a crunch or grinding noise when easing off the throttle to slow down, especially bad in low revs in 1st and 2nd gear. Getting into reverse is very sticky, other gears are easy.

When accelerating there is no sign of any unusual noise or strain, no loss of power etc.

I've had the issue for about 5 days and it is clearly getting worse but as mentioned I have had no loss of acceleration and no loss in fuel economy (in fact this has gone up as I have been driving more sensibly hoping to delay the inevitable for a few more days so I can get this sorted out.)

I have little doubt that Mr T on seeing my approach will rub his little hands with glee having seen a distinct slump in sales due to the ever increasing spread of his poor reputation and woeful approach to customer complaints and will opt for the most expensive solution to my problem he can find, dmf and clutch replacement.

He wont be rubbing his hands for long however as if this is the solution the car goes to auction and I'll will have to get whatever I can with the proceeds as it is simply unviable for me to have to spend £2k every two years getting this part replaced as I do 30,000+ a year.

Anyway all advice greatly appreciated, I read through the posts but cannot find any specific info on distunguishing the dmf and clutch, appreciate they are connected so its not that straight forward but I know there is a difference and if the clutch going it does not necessarily mean the dmf is going too.

:( :(

[Ravmania]

Oh, I forgot to mention the burning smell....anyone want to buy a nice, er, project?

PM me for more info.

[Toyopia]

Having just been made a victim of Dual Mass Flywheel destruction on my RAV 4 I have been carefully ploughing my way through previous posts but after a bit of research I have made a few discoveries ref solid flywheel conversions.

Firstly after speaking to Valeo technical they do not currently offer a conversion for the RAV 4 D4D (one is in development) and from what I can see the other conversions available are not kits developed solely for the RAV 4 but just various components cobbled together by various motor factors and sold as kits, certainly the kits available on eBay seem to fall into this category.

With regard to Blue Print components after an expensive warranty claim the Blue Print kit can be used if you so choose but it is not sanctioned by Blue Print and will not be given a warranty if used for the RAV 4 application (I cannot ascertain whether this is a kit developed for the RAV 4 or again just a kit of separate components) but I would guess the latter.

My RAV has just suffered DMF failure @ 40K miles and to be honest after much deliberation I think the best option is to fit original Toyota components including a new DMF + clutch as there seems to be too much uncertainty about the integrity of the solid flywheel kits available.

As Valeo Technical explained to me they take the time to research and develop their kits to ensure their kits are suitable and reliable as a replacement for the DMF and I cannot get the same assurance from the sellers supplying the other kits that are presently available.

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Del.

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club.

I believe I would do the same thing.

[rambler]

hi folks

well i thought i was starting to suffer from DMF failure,but my symptoms are different.......

i have no jangling noise at all,at stanstill or moving.

engine sounds normal :)

all i have is what sounds like a badly rasping exhaust from behind the engine,following through to back of rav...but this is accompanied by a farely heavy general resonance vibration. :(

and this is only when accelerating and low revs..once in top gear,cruising..its fine :)

the clutch 'seems' a little 'sharper' biting than it used to be

i took a drive a long drive out on sunday,for a change i deliberatly drove rav very eraticaly indeed,through the gears badly ,round country lanes.almost trying to destroy it :o ... trying to make whatever is wrong actually finally fail on me.

i failed :( and its very very annoying indeed,cant make whatever is wrong..actually brake

just out of curiousity,its got the same original exhaust...still in good condition,back box is a little rusty,especially on the main joint to exhaust....i do get good back pressure when i put my hand over it.

would this need replacing at this age....'52' reg 87'000 miles?....only thing i can think of

[anchorman]

It is possible that the baffles have gone in the exhaust but I'm afraid it is also possible that the springs have failed in the dmf and it has now settled in a "more compressed than normal" state - if you look at that animation somebody posted recently you will know what I mean. It would cause the clutch to feel less progressive. IF it has done the latter, I wouldn't like to guess how long it will run like that. It could be a long time or something might shock it free and start it rattling again.

[Toyopia]

hi folks

well i thought i was starting to suffer from DMF failure,but my symptoms are different.......

i have no jangling noise at all,at stanstill or moving.

engine sounds normal :)

.but this is accompanied by a farely heavy general resonance vibration. :(

and this is only when accelerating and low revs..once in top gear,cruising..its fine :)

the clutch 'seems' a little 'sharper' biting than it used to be

This does sound like mine did - only 2 weeks and the clutch started to get a little noisy when the pedal was depressed followed a few days later by `orrible noises, just had mine back after a solid flywheel conversion (£800`s worth) and a 2 year warranty, I wasn`t sure this was the way to go but then decided that the DMF was prone to failure from the examples I have seen (in my case one of the DMF springs had tried to exit through the back of the flywheel) luckily only minimal damage to the aluminium bell housing as I stopped driving my RAV when the noise started.

I`m happy to report with the solid conversion my RAV is perfect now nice slick changes, no judder, no snatching, no vibration and hopefully no more clutch trouble again.

A pity Toyota couldn`t have managed to fit a similar reliable inexpensive flywheel and clutch to start with.

Incidentally MIKAYO (Japanese OEM manufacturer) supplied the kit @£293 complete whereas a DMF was £530 plus £138 for the clutch.

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Del.

[KHM]

Mine was an 05 plate D4D XT-R Rav and the DMF started to fail a few weeks after I bought it from a vauxhall dealer at ~3yr old with 25-30k on the clock. I can't remember exactly but it had a towbar fitted.

As it was still under warranty from the vauxhall dealer I took it back to them expecting it to be repaired by them. I got it back, no bill and no other paperwork so wasn't sure exactly what had been done.

I was back in touch with then recently and it turns out that vauxhall actually put it back to toyota and it had been done under that warranty although it was expired by about 2wks.

At another encounter with a toyota sales rep he told me that if they get them back for repair they put in a different part so it shouldn't happen again. Neither Toyota or Vauxhall can find a note of exactly what was done to my vehicle, but here's hoping it won't happen again.

My brother has also had the same thing happen with a SWB Shogun but it did masses of damage when it did fail. It was a W plate, 2000, Di-D that had done about 60k. He had to Shell out about £1000 of the £3000 it cost to put everything right. His also had a towbar fitted and he hadn'y had it for very long.

[rav4nrg]

Just want to give a shout out to zippy65. Thanks for your help. I took legal action and got compensated as the judge ruled in my favor. My vehicle is or was a NRG D4D Rav '51' plate diesel.. Ok. It still is but now I think all toyota cars are crap and i'll think twice b4 I even drive one let alone buy another.

Aquired it in 2003, drove it for 5 years from 20k to 60k. Then the DMF went faulty. Toyota and the Toyota dealer did all they could to sidestep the issue talking all that jazz about warranty. We took court action based on the sales of goods act which covers you for 6 years after purchase. Action has to be taken against the retailer or seller not the manufacturer and you have to basically proof that the fault on the goods was an inherent problem and it is also the responsibility of the buyer to prove that the retailers goods were at fault.

This website gives info about a modified DMF for rav4's manufactured before 2002. But DMF's manufactured after that date go faulty as well. And not just in Toyota's. DMF's work quite well I suppose but for a part that is a major part in the functioning of the car manufacturers seem to be taking an ingenuous stance of considering this part namely the DMF as a consumable but for some reason are reluctant to list this part as a consumable.

Everyone knows if your car has a catalytic converter you will be replacing it one day. Everyone knows clutch, brakes, oil, plugs, batteries, exhaust, tyres and even your windscreen may need replacing but your crankshaft, pistons, rings, engine block in general, gearbox, seats, car frame, etc and the flywheel are in general parts that last as long as the cars existence unless bad treatment of the car. The old style flywheels lasted the lifetime of the car but the DMF which was designed to soften the harshness of the diesel engine is not built to last and cannot be built to last and its obvious that unless an automatic any DMF attached to any powerful engine via a clutch and DMF, it will fail eventually and as such not fit for purpose. No one buys a car hoping it lasts for 5 years. A high powered diesel with a DMF and manual ( stick shift transmission will eventually fail. Stay far...

I know Anchorman and crew will shoot me down but take my foolish advice and stay away from high powered diesels with manual drive.

And remember you can get yours by taking the sales of goods act route.

[Mach 1]

Hi everyone, just joined the forum and am thinking of purchasing a Rav4 D-4D. Very interesting reading through the posts and very appreciated, especially Anchorman.

Have to say though Anchorman, I do tend to see Hemi's point of view. Being a mechanic myself i do see the pitfalls of DMF's, and have fitted a few of them to different vehicles ( not Toyota though). Ford actually were selling a solid flywheel conversion for the Transit, but am not sure if they are still doing so.

I personally don't think you should have transmission problems with a solid flywheel, as the initial take up is still being dampened, but from the clutch plate springs instead of the DMF. Crankshaft wise, I'm not so sure. I would expect there is going to be a degree of extra load and possibly tickover vibration, but the crank "should" be strong enough to handle the extra weight or how is the crank going to handle powering the vehicle and even towing with something like a caravan.

the problem with Toyota is that they have built their reputation on reliability, and issues like the DMF just aren't expected from their company. If it was Renault, Peugot, Ford, and the likes, you sort of accept it, but not Toyota.

I suppose I could look out for a auto

[anchorman]

Its complicated and because it is so expensive to repair it is also a very emotive issue.

We are all entitled to an opinion and if somebody thinks that a petrol engine is a better route, I don't have a problem with that. All I do say is that if you have a diesel engined car of any brand you are no less prone to the same issue than you are with a Toyota.

There are several owners now as well as HEMI who are waxing lyrical about SMFs. I am open minded about them and would be very interested in driving one just out of curiosity. However, coming from a vehicle testing and development background I know for a fact this lot will have been fully investigated and you only really know what is happening when you have some measurements in black and white. No manufacturer would consider the risk of installing these expensive components unless they felt it necessary. It is only that thought that keeps my fairly and squarely on the fence. OK there is enough volume of 4.2s to find a gearbox from a scrapper if broke a mainshaft but I don't think I'm brave enough to put one in a 4.3 with a 6 speed box - my cautious instincts would take over me!

As a matter of interest 4.3 owners. If your DMF failed would you try a SMF or stick with a DMF???

IMHO

[Mach 1]

Its complicated and because it is so expensive to repair it is also a very emotive issue.

We are all entitled to an opinion and if somebody thinks that a petrol engine is a better route, I don't have a problem with that. All I do say is that if you have a diesel engined car of any brand you are no less prone to the same issue than you are with a Toyota.

There are several owners now as well as HEMI who are waxing lyrical about SMFs. I am open minded about them and would be very interested in driving one just out of curiosity. However, coming from a vehicle testing and development background I know for a fact this lot will have been fully investigated and you only really know what is happening when you have some measurements in black and white. No manufacturer would consider the risk of installing these expensive components unless they felt it necessary.

I agree with most of what you are saying Anchorman, SMF's are a bit of an unknown quantity regarding converting from DMF's.I too would like to try one, and read a few more reports by owners who have gone down the SMF route before making a judgement. Obviously the dealers themselves aren't really going to want advise changing to SMF, as that would be an admission that there is a problem.So realistically the dealers can only replace the DMF with an original unit, or modify to a better design.Not ideal in both respects if the problem can still happen.

I'll ring Ford parts up and see what they have to say about the SMF conversion, but I do believe they were only offering the SMF for Transits only, even though Mondeos have the same engine.

Keep you posted

[local hero]

Its complicated and because it is so expensive to repair it is also a very emotive issue.

We are all entitled to an opinion and if somebody thinks that a petrol engine is a better route, I don't have a problem with that. All I do say is that if you have a diesel engined car of any brand you are no less prone to the same issue than you are with a Toyota.

There are several owners now as well as HEMI who are waxing lyrical about SMFs. I am open minded about them and would be very interested in driving one just out of curiosity. However, coming from a vehicle testing and development background I know for a fact this lot will have been fully investigated and you only really know what is happening when you have some measurements in black and white. No manufacturer would consider the risk of installing these expensive components unless they felt it necessary.

I agree with most of what you are saying Anchorman, SMF's are a bit of an unknown quantity regarding converting from DMF's.I too would like to try one, and read a few more reports by owners who have gone down the SMF route before making a judgement. Obviously the dealers themselves aren't really going to want advise changing to SMF, as that would be an admission that there is a problem.So realistically the dealers can only replace the DMF with an original unit, or modify to a better design.Not ideal in both respects if the problem can still happen.

I'll ring Ford parts up and see what they have to say about the SMF conversion, but I do believe they were only offering the SMF for Transits only, even though Mondeos have the same engine.

Keep you posted

I have posted this many times now, I know its not a Rav, but there are approx 500 black cabs fitted with transit engines driving around Manchester, half of those have converted to SMFs with NO adverse effects,some of these cabs have covered,150,000 mls with SMFs fitted + no probs whatsoever, however the transit engine we use is only 90bhp but think how many gearchanges we do driving mainly around a congested city + we don't hang about.. Stew

[Mach 1]

I spoke to Ford about SMF's and the guy I deal with in parts says they do supply a SMF for Transits. But they have only sold one or two, and do not warrant the item against labour, only against the item itself.

I also spoke to Mr Clutch, obviously from the name they just fit and supply clutches. Basically the guy there said that they wouldn't reccomend a SMF, although they have fitted a couple at owners bequest.He said really what Anchorman has wrote, that extra weight on the flywheel could cause balance problems on the crankshaft, even from the pulley end for some reason. He does know of RAV4 (and other vehicle) problems with DMFs and says the DMFs they supply are much higher quality than the OE ones supplied by the dealers, I guess I would have to take his word on that though.

All in they fit a DMF and clutch kit for about £800, that is a lot easier to stomach than circa £2000, and certainly makes me feel a bit less worried about buying a diesel RAV4.

Hope that info is any use to anyone

[MarsKy]

All in they fit a DMF and clutch kit for about £800, that is a lot easier to stomach than circa £2000, and certainly makes me feel a bit less worried about buying a diesel RAV4.

Hope that info is any use to anyone

That is useful info if looking to keep the RAV long term. Can you give the company name and address?

[Mach 1]

Mr Clutch are based in the North East. The number I rang was the Newcastle branch (0191-4787723), but they also have two other branches at Durham (0191-3844654) and Hexham (01434-608884)

[HEMI]

heyup guys,I haven't posted for a while cos I've been really busy,don't get me started on DMF's again,lol,we're also starting to get problems with DPF's too now,(not RAVS I hasten to add)

[anchorman]

heyup guys,I haven't posted for a while cos I've been really busy,don't get me started on DMF's again,lol,we're also starting to get problems with DPF's too now,(not RAVS I hasten to add)

Heyup stranger.

Glad you're still alive!!!

[hemmy]

I've had some engine vibration, especially in low gear, and a sound similar to a blowing exhaust.I took my 05 Rav4 to a garage for a minor problem and mentioned this. They took it out for a drive and had a quick look, and suggested that there could be a problem with the DMFW.I had a flywheel replaced by a Toyota dealership in Oct.2008.Surely it can't have gone again. If it has, do I have any recourse against the dealership.

[anchorman]

IF it is the dmf then I would certainly go back to the dealer. Perhaps you should for a second opinion anyway.

[macdokes]

Hi Lads

First post

I think my 04 d4d has a failing DMF, Its at 111,000miles

I'm wondering whats envolved in replacing it. All i've ever done on the Rav is replace the valves in the fuel pump after it lost turbo power but work on my older cars alot as a hobbie including rebuilding an engine.

I don't have a lift only a cold garage........ am I daft to think i could do it?

Thanks

Mac

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club Mac.

A lot depends on how ambitious you are. Its fairly straight forward in terms of it is keep unbolting stuff until you get to it but there is quite a lot of lifting involved. You need to remove the transfer box and then the gearbox which is like any other large transverse arrangement. It will have to be lifted while you detach the front drive shafts. If you can do all this you can probably do it yourself. Its like a Nissan Primera but with a transfer box to the rear axle. If you have tackled a similar large clutch you should be OK. However, there is a lot of lifting and crawling about to be done but you will probably save over 1000€.

Let us know what you decide.

[Purdey]

Hi All

Haven't been here for a while but got loads of help last time i was here and hoping you could help me (and the hubby!) again.

It's a 2002 Rav4.2 CLA21 with 97,000 miles. Bought it 2 years ago, as seen, so unsure about previous history but has given no other problems so far. In very good shape.

Basically the problem is this:

Noticed a single slight knock on picking up in low gears 1st and 2nd, changed the transfer box, didn't resolve the problem. Has since developed a tinny rattle in low gears and tickover. Think it may be the DMF has worked its way loose from it's mounting??? There's no power loss or juddering only a slightly heavier vibration on tickover. The problem is very hard to explain, but the clutch doesn't 'feel right' in low gears.

Any ideas on what may be causing this problem? DMF? Clutch? Gearbox?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Purdey

[anchorman]

Hi Purdey

Its hard to be specific but you have already worked out the most likely causes and statistically the DMF is favourite.

Your going to have to dig in anyway. I would have alook at the DMF then only go for the others if you can find nothing wrong.

Good luck.

[Purdey]

Thanks anchorman

And now for the controversial question..... He's thinking of going with the solid flywheel conversion... Is he mad?

If the DMF has just loosened from it's mounting, can it be tightened back into place or does the whole shooting match need to be replaced??