Dual Mass Flywheels

[anchorman]

Its a burning question and one that is not easy to answer without sounding like I'm fairly and squarely on the fence!

I personally would fit another DMF but there are others here that have fitted SMFs and so far have had no problems. Vehicle manufacturers have access to all the nitty gritty data that we don't and will have measured the torque spikes generated by the engine and the effect it might have on the other components in the drivetrain. They don't fit expensive components for fun, they do it based upon information that tells them that the whole life risk is minimised. Something stops them from fitting SMFs and it is that "something" that concerns me. There are owners here that have fitted SMFs and swear by them and report smooth drive etc. I accept those comments fully but for me to be sure I would like a bigger sample with many, many more miles under the belt. You might fit another DMF and it fail in 50k ( it might never fail again) so I leave that decision with you.

I think you are clutching (no pun intended) at straws with the notion that it might have come loose unless you have reason to think it wasn't fitted properly. In that case you really have to strip it down and look. If the mountings and dowels all look unworn then you could try tightening it up but if there is even the slightest wear - and that includes the crankshaft, then you should be looking at changing the effected parts.

If it were me in your shoes I would pull it all apart and then decide the best direction when I'd seen it all.

[GJM]

Joined up after searching online for this DMF issues, we have just bought a Rav4 Diesel (52) CLA21(W) REGISTERED ON 12/12/02 but appears to have a chassis number starting with 1000 therefore came with the problematic DMF.

I called toyota to ask if had been replaced and they said it had DMF and clutch at 51k back in Nov 2006.

Now it sits at around 103k, my question is, will it likely last a lot longer this time round, I was hoping for a yes but reading above that might not be the case.

Any advice or pointers would be great, would rather sell it and get something else if it's going to be a money pit, had a petrol one and no issues at all from it

[anchorman]

Joined up after searching online for this DMF issues, we have just bought a Rav4 Diesel (52) CLA21(W) REGISTERED ON 12/12/02 but appears to have a chassis number starting with 1000 therefore came with the problematic DMF.

I called toyota to ask if had been replaced and they said it had DMF and clutch at 51k back in Nov 2006.

Now it sits at around 103k, my question is, will it likely last a lot longer this time round, I was hoping for a yes but reading above that might not be the case.

Any advice or pointers would be great, would rather sell it and get something else if it's going to be a money pit, had a petrol one and no issues at all from it

Firstly, welcome to the club.

I don't know if there is anybody brave enough to answer that question. There are some RAVs that have never had a DMF and some that have had two. However, the diesel engined 4.2 is a great vehicle and if you have a good one I wouldn't condemn it without a fair trial.

What do the others think???

[GJM]

Thanks for your input, we loved the petrol model but was only 3 door and wanted to improve on space...and economy, however if I knew about this issue I might have thought a bit longer about it.

From what I can work out the chassis number would indicate it would have been one of the ones that were destined to fail, however if the work was carried out in 2006 would that not mean that the new one should be better.

Or is it the case even the newer ones are still prone to failing regardless of any changes made to them etc

[anchorman]

I'd like to tell you what you want to hear but I'm afraid its like trying to predict how long a light bulb will last. Some last for ages and some not so. All modern diesels have DMFs and some are far less reliable than a RAV. I'm not willing or able to give you a definitive answer but I wouldn't worry if I bought the same model as you.

[GJM]

I just wasn't sure if it was mainly the ones fitted in 2002 that were prone to failure, by sounds of it any of them can go.

Will get a mechanic friend to check it out at weekend maybe see what he thinks

[macdokes]

Welcome to the club Mac.

A lot depends on how ambitious you are. Its fairly straight forward in terms of it is keep unbolting stuff until you get to it but there is quite a lot of lifting involved. You need to remove the transfer box and then the gearbox which is like any other large transverse arrangement. It will have to be lifted while you detach the front drive shafts. If you can do all this you can probably do it yourself. Its like a Nissan Primera but with a transfer box to the rear axle. If you have tackled a similar large clutch you should be OK. However, there is a lot of lifting and crawling about to be done but you will probably save over 1000€.

Let us know what you decide.

Sorry for not updating sooner

I rang around a few places including toyota who quoted 2500 euro for a dualmass but recommended a solid flywheel which was around 1900 fitted

It would of cost me 600 for solid and 800 euro to buy the parts alone from local motor factor not toyota there prices were mental

I found a place in Dublin that i rang by accident who replaced it with a dual mass flywheel and clutch for 850 euro (Mr gearbox in Finglas)

Thanks god I got someone to do it because when i got it back it was jerky. I brought it back and it turned out the kit was faulty and they had to put another in

Its done a few thousand miles and alls well

Thanks Lads

Mac

[predut marius ionut]

Hi all

Dual Mass Flywheels seems be a wrong decision for toyota.

I recommended you migrate on simple Mass Flywheels ( compact Mass Flywheels, SINGLE MASS FLYWHEEL ) because is twice chipper and

in the future you will not have again the same crash problem.

for toyota avensis 200 -2003 and rav 2000 - 2006 are a lot of solutions on eBay and also from japanise/original : blue print adl(blueprint-adl.com), .ninjapower.co.uk, EXEDY

[predut marius ionut]

Also you can use single mass flywhells from rav 1996-2000 to avensis 2000 - 2003.

Other company (uk) that make single mass flywhells is Comline

[predut marius ionut]

other place that can help as is "National Clutch Products" http://www.national-auto.co.uk/assets/content/documents/clutch%20cata%20oct2010.pdf

[predut marius ionut]

http://www.tm-developments.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=390

[John E]

As a new member to this forum your help would be much appreciated. I have a 2004 Diesel Rav4 which has developed an anoying vibration at 2500rpm in 5th gear only. I dont if it is the dreaded dual mass flywheel as I dont have vibration in any other gear even 4th at 2500rpm. The car has only done 43000mls and I have driven it cafully from 18000mls.

Any help is much appreciated.

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club.

Its hard to say at this point especially if it only does it in 5th so I think all you can do for now is monitor it as it will surely do it in all gears when it is on the way out. You could just have the engine mountings checked and somebody once reported that having the gear change cables adjusted stopped a noisy 5th gear.

Are you sure it is not just at certain engine revs and it does do it in other gears?

[John E]

Many thanks for coming back to me so quickly. At the moment I dont get vibration in any of the other gears and can even select all the gears including 5th and reverse without a problem . I also thought it might be 5th gear that was causing the problem but I cant pin it down as yet. I also read the previous report and checked the gear change cables but unfortunately they are non adjustable, also the cables are working perfectly and are not streached.

I think I will watch out for the Fly wheel warning signs and monitor the problem; I will keep you posted in the hope any information gained from this might help some else.

[Buzz43uk]

Hi

I have just joined this group because I feel the need to vent my spleen.......

I have owned a 3dr RAV4 DVD since December 2003 when I bought it new from a dealership. In those 7 years the car has made two trips to Cornwall, 3000 mile total, and the rest is tooing and froing around town and making the 5 mile journey to work and back, and now, this vehicle has done a massive 30,000 miles. Not too taxing for a modern vehicle I think you would agree.

However, I am currently without said vehicle, because it is currently having a new DM Flywheel fitted and input bearing replaced because of flywheel failure which is going to cost me in the region of £1200 all of which I am having to bare the brunt of. When I took it to the local Toyota dealer in Chesterfield, I felt as if I was laughed out of the showroom when I complained of this failure and left with the service desk writing my number down on a scrap of paper with a promise to ring Toyota Customer service....needless to say I heard nothing.

I paid a £1000 premium to own a diesel car in these fuel starved times which would have took some time to redeem but, hey! I'm keeping the car,!Now I am lumbered with a £1200 bill a month before Xmas for a part that, in my mind, should last for the life of the car and that is, quite obviously, after 30,000 easy miles, not fit for purpose. Was it worth buying diesel...NO!

Do I like the car? YES love it to bits. Would I buy another Toyota? NO NEVER EVER EVER, not after, the three sets of alloys in 3 years under warranty that are again pitted and bubbling and not after a £1200 bill for a part that should be fully functional at 200,000 miles. Not for the £600 bill the dealers wanted to charge me to fit discs and pads all around that an amateur, like myself, did in 90 minutes for 1/6 the cost. Not for being laughed at by the dealership and being expected to stump of their inflated prices, £1600+, to replace a fundementally flawed piece of kit (am I wrong just do a search on failed DMF).

In short, I do not think that a car that has done 30,000 miles should require a major repair expense like this!!!

For those that wish to diagnose their own vehicles for this, it started with a very slight clutch judder when cold first thing of the morning but went after a couple of miles (mine was at 25,000!!), nothing that causes any concern. Then a year later it suddenly sounded throaty like an exhaust blowing at around 1750 revs but just in 5th before and under load, finally, after another 2 months, it got to be the same in all other gears and noticibly louder.

[*srjp*]

Hi Buzz, unfortunately, and as you can see, you're in a very large and unhappy club. 1,200 sounds cheaper than most get quoted though, I just paid 2000 Euro for mine to be done which is about 1.7k sterling. Hopefully get two or three more years and then sell the car before it's due to go again - as far as I understand it there hasn't been any change in design to resolve the issue.

I had absolutely terrible experiences with an Honda dealership in Chesterfield a few years ago, wonder if they've changed to Toyota. Can't remember the name unfortunately but they were equally smug/useless/unhelpful and didn't even do the jobs properly.

p.s. My alloys are terrible too. Was reading an article on Reuters recently about how Toyota have dropped the quality ball in the last decade and even the head man Toyoda is looking towards Hyundai as a the new hero to emulate. Think that's the way I'll head next time.

[Buzz43uk]

Hi *srjp*

Honda and Toyota are part of the same franchise, Gordon Lamb, and I have an 09 Honda too. Great!. Something amiss there as I have heard the sales reps are leaving hand over fist at Honda too.

[jedi134]

For those that wish to diagnose their own vehicles for this, it started with a very slight clutch judder when cold first thing of the morning but went after a couple of miles (mine was at 25,000!!), nothing that causes any concern. Then a year later it suddenly sounded throaty like an exhaust blowing at around 1750 revs but just in 5th before and under load, finally, after another 2 months, it got to be the same in all other gears and noticibly louder.

:crybaby: Mine has this clutch judder when cold, has done for a while though? Also when in 5th on the motorways does your rear view mirror vibrate so bad everthing viewed in it is blurry??

Must keep an eye on it, I will have a huge project if this fails

[Buzz43uk]

Hi jedi134

yes, mine had a slight judder for a year or so. The vibration you talk about, unfortunately, sounds very familiar....car shaking, panels vibrating and a blurry rear view....scared the bejesus out of me the first time it happened.

[jedi134]

O dear. Im coming up to 81k miles now, Maybe shes ready to blow.

[MAWglobal]

For the record, as this seems to be where to post up, just had the DMF on my wife's steed replaced.

Somehow I missed all the good info on here explaining the problem... in hindsight it was on the way out for 12+ months. I'd put it down to the clutch on the way out, which in hindsight was the flywheel beginning to shake itself to bits! Standard symptoms- juddery pulling off, and eventually very rattly in low gears at low revs.

The DMF and clutch were changed for about £1500 at a local independent garage.

Car has done about 90k and it's an 02 plate- we bought it at about 50k; not sure if it had failed previously.

So... if we get through another 40k without any big problems we'll be dead chuffed! (Quickly buys a black cat and starts training it to cross my path. Or is that bad luck, I forget?! Got 2 rabbits but they're rather fond of their paws... maybe I'll just touch wood...)

Lastly and most importantly- thanks to everyone who's posted all the good info on the problem! Saved a lot of hassle by getting to the cause quickly :-)

[Davepax]

For the record, as this seems to be where to post up, just had the DMF on my wife's steed replaced.

Somehow I missed all the good info on here explaining the problem... in hindsight it was on the way out for 12+ months. I'd put it down to the clutch on the way out, which in hindsight was the flywheel beginning to shake itself to bits! Standard symptoms- juddery pulling off, and eventually very rattly in low gears at low revs.

The DMF and clutch were changed for about £1500 at a local independent garage.

Car has done about 90k and it's an 02 plate- we bought it at about 50k; not sure if it had failed previously.

So... if we get through another 40k without any big problems we'll be dead chuffed! (Quickly buys a black cat and starts training it to cross my path. Or is that bad luck, I forget?! Got 2 rabbits but they're rather fond of their paws... maybe I'll just touch wood...)

Lastly and most importantly- thanks to everyone who's posted all the good info on the problem! Saved a lot of hassle by getting to the cause quickly :-)

That's the sort of quotes I was getting to replace the DMF on my Rav but I decided to get a solid flywheel conversion kit for £290 and fitted by my local garage for £300. I also have a Saab 93, the DMF went on that too, I took it to a company in Durham called Mr Clutch (80 or so miles from where I live) to get a new one fitted. I couldn't find a conversion kit anywhere for the Saab. The DMF set me back £800, fitted. Saab quoted £1200.

I don't like Dual mass flywheels, not because they are a bad thing although the jury's still out, but because they're so expensive to replace. Due to the fact that these things are so unreliable they should be made more affordable. I also think that motorists are being conned here.

Cheers Dave

[Uncle_P]

I'd guess that most manufacturers producing diesel engines would have issues with dual mass flywheels, but are some more prone to failure than others? Anybody here got experience of other diesels apart from Mr T's?

[anchorman]

Loads Bill.

Just google dmf and a brand and they all pop up.

[acetip]

Read somewhere that LUK were working on some sort of new DMF that was a hybrid single and duel flywheel/clutch set up.

It was over a year ago i read this but seen nothing since.

Anyone know anything about this.