Dual Mass Flywheels

[big h]

Welcome to the club Alex, sorry to hear about your troubles :(

I think you should contact Toyota GB, as your car is a 'Toyota GB' car and not a 'Toyota Ireland' car (if that makes sense!).

Just to warn you, we've had other owners on here with the modified DMF who haven't had a penny from Toyota.

Best of luck :)

Hi all, not sure if I'm writing in the correct box but you get no prizes for guessing why. I took my wife's rav for a spin the other day only to discover a rumble / vibration coming from below especially when under load, i thought it a little strange and checked the exhaust it wasn't that. This week she calls me to tell me there is a strange knocking sound coming from the engine, after reading all the posted statements i am sure another dmf is about to go bang. The rav is 4 years 8 months old and done only 40,195 miles, I'm hoping its still warranted, i have called Toyota today and I'm now waiting for a reply, i will let you know what they have to say!

[80andybrown80]

Well, from my previous post above, Toyota as expected will not entertain the repair or even goodwill for repair. Now I am saving to fix this. Not a good time to happen as the family cannot go away at weekends now in the caravan until it is repaired.

I keep seeing the Valeo 4 part kit mentioned. http://www.valeoservice.com/actualites.php...D4C〈=en

Is this a good move to get one of these ? What do others here reccommend ?

I have a friend who is a fully qualified mechanic and has already given me a 'mates rates' price for labour.

Please let me know. I need to get the engine repaired before the 21st Aug.

many thanks

Andy

[anchorman]

Andy

The Valeo kit is very good and in fact they supply the original one for the RAV. I think if you shop around you can get it for about £595 as a guideline.

I would have no hesitation whatsoever in using that kit.

Good luck mate.

[rav4nrg]

going down the warranty route is just a waste of time.

As a consumer your purchase is covered by the sales of goods act which entitles the purchaser to claim against faulty goods up to six years after purchase.

You will have to prove that the goods were not fit for purpose and or were faulty at the time of sale.

I think the legal and court route may be the only option besides maybe a goodwill gesture.

They offered me 20% off the cost of the repair if I bring the car to them...

[Becaweb]

Need to confirm the Model and dates of RAV 4 with problems becasue i have read that Vehicles later than 2002 are having Issues with the DMF

I have a 2002 Rav 4 that had a DMF and the full EC @ £2400 not a bill that we like to pay when all of this is bad design ~ or not upto the job.

Ok my car had done 100k so you coudl say why i am complaining but hey we all expecvt a clutch kit etc but not a bill like this,

Car just out of the 5 Year and managed to get 15% off on this price.

I have not towed just normal mileage mostly motorways.

This is going to be a massive issue as these vehicles get older and more miles, toyota know this hence there no help response when your car is out of the 5 year warranty.

Was looking to upgrade this car for a newer RAV4 but do not want the same issues.

From various post i am not sure that the nwer 54 ~ 56 plates are OK i know the new version 2.2 is can any one update me on this

Regards

[zippy65]

What is a Dual Mass Flywheel?

The flywheel is effectively a weight which is fastened to the end of the crankshaft of the engine. The power from the pistons tends to be created in “pulses” and the weight of the flywheel smoothes out these pulses by providing inertia to the rotating engine. As well as providing a weight the flywheel has a gear around its circumference on which the starter motor operates and is a convenient means of attaching the clutch which provides a variable connection to the transmission.

Modern diesel engines generate high torque and as a result they need extra smoothing out or “damping”. To help with this process a DMF (Dual Mass Flywheel) is fitted. This is effectively two flywheels that transmit the drive through a number of springs which cushion the drive to the transmission. Please look at the bottom of this post to see a description of what a flywheel does.

Is DMF failure inevitable?

No not necessarily. Some vehicles cover very high mileages and do not have any problems. Whether the DMF fails depends on what kind of duty the vehicle is subjected to and to some extent the way the vehicle is driven.

What happens when the DMF fails?

In practical terms, the first an owner will know is likely to be either a vibration and/or metallic jingling noise. The time these symptoms take to manifest themselves as a complete failure will vary dramatically. A complete failure will probably result in not being able to select any gears or in extreme cases a complete loss of drive. However, it is recommended that if any of the symptoms described are experienced that the vehicle is taken immediately to a suitably equipped workshop for further investigation. This may avoid the inconvenience of a roadside breakdown and the associated recovery costs.

The DMF on early models (up to those produced in August 2002) could under certain conditions come loose. This is the statement form Toyota GB regarding this matter;

”The issue regarding Dual Mass Flywheels relates to RAV4 CLA20 and CLA21 models (early diesel vehicles) and was found to be that under hard use (towing etc) the flywheel securing bolts were unable to provide sufficient tightness. This was remedied by an improved flywheel and revised fastening and tightening processes, which were introduced into RAV4 vehicle production from August 2002. The improvements were made from VIN numbers,

JT EYG20V400009863

JT EHG20V600026183

JT EHG20V606013132

With our commitment to customer satisfaction the warranty was extended for a period outside of the normal 3 year or 60,000 mile warranty. Because a production line fix was introduced from August 2002 claims would only be accepted on vehicles manufactured prior to this date. This extended period ran for 5 years or 100,000 miles (whichever comes first) and as such would therefore have expired in August 2007. I have to confirm that no extra time or mileage will be added to this warranty extension and all Toyota Centres are aware of the above information.

My recommendation would be that owners who experience a failure outside of this period should contact their Toyota Centre and if they feel it appropriate, contact would be made to our Customer Relations Department for their consideration.”

Some Toyota Centres have insisted that a new that I have the ECU changed as well as the DMF and this costs more. Why is this?

If there is evidence of heat related damage the Service Department may recommend that a re-programmed ECU is fitted to reduce the possibility of damage due to clutch slip. The Toyota Centre will advise you if any of the cost of this work can be met under the terms of the warranty.

Why is it so expensive to change the DMF?

The DMF is quite a complex part of your vehicle and it is fitted between the engine and the gearbox. To change it requires all of the gearbox and transfer box oil to be drained, then the front to rear drive shaft, transfer box , gearbox and all of the clutch components need to be removed. The vehicle has to be elevated and there is quite a lot of labour involved.

What are Toyota doing about this and are any extended warranties available?

Toyota are committed to ensuring that their vehicles perform reliably throughout their life and have provided this statement;

”It is always concerning to learn of any product failure and if this does occur then we do look to the reasons to understand why this has occurred and take steps to prevent this from happening again in the future. This usually follows a remedy to the source on the production line, along with a modified part (normally identified by a superseded part number). As you have correctly advised the issue regarding the failure of the Dual Mass Flywheel on Toyota RAV4's has involved a revised tightening procedure from August 2002 production along with a modified part now supplied to the Toyota Centre Network.

Should an owner suspect their vehicle has a problem then our advice would always be to take this along to their Toyota Centre to be remedied. Toyota Centres are kept updated through our technical and warranty teams to ensure they are always aware of the very latest information in respect of our model range and be able to advise owners on a recommended course of action should this affect their vehicle.

With any failures outside of the Toyota warranty, which is 3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes sooner, and no extended warranty has been purchased, then this would be dealt with on an individual basis between that owner and their Toyota Centre. This would also include any requests for goodwill outside of the warranty period.”

Is this problem only applicable to Toyotas?

Absolutely not. A large number of vehicles from all manufacturers employ dual mass flywheels. To some extent their use is a necessary requirement with the evolution of modern high powered diesel engines to provide smooth operation and prevent any damage being caused to any other parts of the vehicle.

Do I have to take my RAV to a Toyota dealer for repair?

No. You can take your Toyota to any suitably equipped workshop. However, you should be sure that you have past experience of them or they come well recommended as the job is rather long and complicated. You can be sure that a Toyota workshop has all the necessary facilities to complete the work properly and a Toyota Centre will have access to guaranteed Genuine Parts and any information regarding modified or improved parts and processes that may not be available elsewhere.

I am thinking of buying a second hand RAV 4. Can I tell if the DMF is faulty?

You can test drive the vehicle and make sure it does not suffer from any excessive vibration. It is highly unlikely that you could detect any problems unless the failure was imminent. If in any doubt take the vehicle to a suitably equipped workshop for a professional opinion. Most reputable dealers will provide a suitable warranty and motoring organisations will test the vehicle for a fee.

Should the possibility of any problems stop me from buying a diesel engined RAV 4?

No. These are generally a very reliable and highly regarded vehicle that will provide many years of trouble free service.

This section gives more information on the role of the flywheel and the DMF

The flywheel has to be heavy as it maintains the inertia of the engine. When the four pistons come down on the power stroke it is like they are being shot down the barrel of a cannon and they all take it in turns - 1,3,4,2. The trouble is that the next one in sequence does not start until the previous one as right at the bottom of the stroke so the turning moment on the crankshaft is very "lumpy". The crankshaft is like the pedals on a bicycle (except instead of two there are four in a row), it turns the reciprocating (up and down) motion of the pistons into rotary motion that is eventually connected to the wheels. In order to make the engine rotate smoothly, a flywheel which is nothing more than a very heavy round weight is bolted onto the rear of the crankshaft. When the mass of this flywheel gets spinning it helps to remove the "lumpyness" of when one piston gets to the botttom of a cylinder and the next one being fired from the top. In very old single and double cylinder engines it had to be huge to keep the engine turning. On this traction engine it is up by the driving cab;

You can see it very clearly on this single cylinder steam engine;

You can imagine that without this flywheel to carry the piston around to the next power stroke the engine would stop. In really big engines you need a really big flywheel and in this mill engine at Wigan Pier it weighs 70 tons;

Its hard for you to get a feel for just how big that is but if you look to the lower right of the picture there is a large double doorway into the mill. The flywheel has to be massive because it drives thousands of machines in the factory and as it is a spinning mill it is important that they turn at a constant speed.

Now we relate the role of the flywheel to the D4D engine. In most cars the flywheel would be a relatively simple affair - just a weight as already stated but these small modern diesels are phenominally powerful for their size and the power strokes are effectively very "lumpy". You can imagine that if you fired the pedals down on your bike with a cannon instead of pushing them with your legs then the bike would be very jerky! Of course you could fit an even bigger flywheel on an engine to smooth out the lumps but there are limitations because;

• They absorb more of the engines power, it would rev up slowly and also slow down slowly which effects performance and slows down the gear changing process by having to wait for the speeds of different gears to synchronise.
  
• They use more fuel.
  
• They are difficult to accommodate.
  

So the way that modern diesels are smoothed out is with a Dual Mass Flywheel similar to the one in this diagram;

You can see that the flywheel is in two pieces. One is connected to the pistons (and dont forget that there are four pistons) and then the other is connected to the transmission via a set of annular springs around the circumference of the flywheel. These springs absorb the lumpyness of the pistons and transmit smooth rotary motion to the transmission. It makes the car feel smoother to drive and almost eliminates any vibration that would cause knock on damage to the clutch and gearbox.

In this picture of a failed DMF belonging to one of our members, you can see that the bolts have become loose and the resultant damage around the eight fixing holes as the flywheel eventually worked loose.

I like many others have had a flywheel failure. I would like to open the flywheel to see exactly which bit has failed. This is a sealed unit so i am wondering if anyone has opened one themselves and can give me some advice.

[zippy65]

Hi Anchorman

like many many others on this forum I have had a flywheel failure. I would like to open the flywheel to see exactly which bit has failed. This is a sealed unit so i am wondering if anyone has opened one themselves and can give me some advice. The garage who carried out the work will not open the flywheel and has said this is because of health and safety reasons (an excuse i think). I cannot seem to get a sensible answer as to why the flywheel has failed

Can you advise the best way to do this without causing too much damage to the unit itself?

thanks

[anchorman]

I assume it is scrap?

The early ones had a snap ring under the centre boss on the clutch side. You might need to cut it to get it out. Later ones have a ring of torx screws holding the hub together. It is usually the drive springs that fail. There is a member called Chatman who has some photos from his. It is a catastrophic failure but you will get the idea if he shows you his photos.

It is a finger trapping device so only open it if you are confident and watch out for the blackened finger nails!

[chatman]

I assume it is scrap?

The early ones had a snap ring under the centre boss on the clutch side. You might need to cut it to get it out. Later ones have a ring of torx screws holding the hub together. It is usually the drive springs that fail. There is a member called Chatman who has some photos from his. It is a catastrophic failure but you will get the idea if he shows you his photos.

It is a finger trapping device so only open it if you are confident and watch out for the blackened finger nails!

Zippy if you want me to send you the photo's of mine I can, Just pm me your email and I'll send them over.

You could do a search for topic calle D4D no Go and look here. I also still have my old DMF but failed to get it apart...

[waynelod]

Hi everyone

Im also new to this forum, and hope you can help.

We have a Rav 4 - purchased from new in March 04. Its a D-4D, and has 61,700 miles on the clock. There has been one heck of a noise over the past week and it has been pretty much confirmed that its the DMF.

Ive viewed all the posts here - and it looks like the extended warranty on the DMF is 5 years OR 60k miles. Toyota locally have quoted £1700 to sort this. I have booked it into a garage tomorrow to confirm for sure that the DMF has gone, and will then go to Toyota I guess to sort it.

Do you think there is any point in contacting Toyota GB for the potential of getting it sorted FOC before I go down the expensive route please ? Thank you in advance. p.s this vehicle has never towed anything :(

[anchorman]

Hi everyone

Im also new to this forum, and hope you can help.

We have a Rav 4 - purchased from new in March 04. Its a D-4D, and has 61,700 miles on the clock. There has been one heck of a noise over the past week and it has been pretty much confirmed that its the DMF.

Ive viewed all the posts here - and it looks like the extended warranty on the DMF is 5 years OR 60k miles. Toyota locally have quoted £1700 to sort this. I have booked it into a garage tomorrow to confirm for sure that the DMF has gone, and will then go to Toyota I guess to sort it.

Do you think there is any point in contacting Toyota GB for the potential of getting it sorted FOC before I go down the expensive route please ? Thank you in advance. p.s this vehicle has never towed anything :(

A phone call won't cost you much to Toyota Customer Relations but the warranty effectively ended and as your car has exceeded 60k I doubt wheter they will do anything to be honest. If you could get them to contribute it might work out as cheap as a good local independant but if you are faced with choosing between the Toyota Garage and the independant the latter usually works out cheaper. Remeber it is worth phoning several Toyota garages and tell them you are shopping around for the best quote.

However, good luck and we always appreciate feedback.

[SmudgeRAV4]

Hello all, new here. Just bought a RAV4 D4D on Saturday, an 03 with 48k on the clock. Really like the car but it looks like already I have a DMF fault! Just lost drive this morning so it haas been towed into a garage. The mechanic called to say he suspected it was the DMF and now he was waiting for the company to decide whether to allow it to be done under warranty!!

The company I got the car from seem to have a dubious reputation for trying to avoid all warranty work....I knew this before I bought the car but believed Toyota was about as safe an option as I would get. I am pretty sure they will try to fob me off with "wear and tear", I don't understand how they can when I've only done 60 miles, surely that could not be classed as "fit for purpose" even by the very worst used car dealers?

I'll let you know how I get on but I reckon they will try to stall a bit so that I miss the 7 day cooling off period for the finance! Maybe I should just reject it now?

[waynelod]

Hi everyone

Im also new to this forum, and hope you can help.

We have a Rav 4 - purchased from new in March 04. Its a D-4D, and has 61,700 miles on the clock. There has been one heck of a noise over the past week and it has been pretty much confirmed that its the DMF.

Ive viewed all the posts here - and it looks like the extended warranty on the DMF is 5 years OR 60k miles. Toyota locally have quoted £1700 to sort this. I have booked it into a garage tomorrow to confirm for sure that the DMF has gone, and will then go to Toyota I guess to sort it.

Do you think there is any point in contacting Toyota GB for the potential of getting it sorted FOC before I go down the expensive route please ? Thank you in advance. p.s this vehicle has never towed anything :(

A phone call won't cost you much to Toyota Customer Relations but the warranty effectively ended and as your car has exceeded 60k I doubt wheter they will do anything to be honest. If you could get them to contribute it might work out as cheap as a good local independant but if you are faced with choosing between the Toyota Garage and the independant the latter usually works out cheaper. Remeber it is worth phoning several Toyota garages and tell them you are shopping around for the best quote.

However, good luck and we always appreciate feedback.

Hi Anchorman

Many thanks for the advice. I DID call Toyota Customer Relations this morning, and they advise that I ask our local Toyota if its covered. Its booked into a local one tomorrow at 9:30 - so will ask them if it can at least be PARTIALLY covered / contributed, and will also ring around for quotes as you suggest. My local independent confirmed today it IS the DMF but turned the job down as it was too big for him. Will keep you posted, cheers ;)

[hertsnminds]

I'll let you know how I get on but I reckon they will try to stall a bit so that I miss the 7 day cooling off period for the finance! Maybe I should just reject it now?

I would reject it now or at least write a letter stating your intention to reject it if it is not fixed at their cost before a certain date. That way you are covered.

[anchorman]

Smudge

If you bought it from a trader they must uphold the warranty regardless of any third party warranty company involvement. There is a chance at 60 miles that the previous owner had heard some strange noises and traded it as they will run for some time in that way. It wouldn't register with you of course because you have no comparator of what is or is not normal. I would throw that back at the dealer and tell him to fix it (with the help of the warranty company if necessary) or ask for your money back. In law a test of "reasonableness" will apply and that is not reasonable - you should have no expense on that one.

Waynelod

Keeps us informed mate.

I hope you both get sorted out OK.

[waynelod]

Smudge

If you bought it from a trader they must uphold the warranty regardless of any third party warranty company involvement. There is a chance at 60 miles that the previous owner had heard some strange noises and traded it as they will run for some time in that way. It wouldn't register with you of course because you have no comparator of what is or is not normal. I would throw that back at the dealer and tell him to fix it (with the help of the warranty company if necessary) or ask for your money back. In law a test of "reasonableness" will apply and that is not reasonable - you should have no expense on that one.

Waynelod

Keeps us informed mate.

I hope you both get sorted out OK.

Sorry to hear so many probs above. Just to keep you updated. Toyota have stated that the cost is £1700 to sort it and no movement on the price. Therefore totally peed off and will be shifting the RAV post fixing. Im so gutted.

[anchorman]

Be careful Wayne, we've seen this before.

I know you feel bitter but in fixing and shifting the motor you will just be making a damn good buy for somebody else as you won't get £1700 more than you paid and TGB won't feel the pain anyway.

If you have it fixed try to just live with it for a while until you have had chance to calm down. They are a likeable vehicle and you will feel better after a cooling off period.

I am being as sincere as possible and don't want you to shoot yourself in the foot. Cars are the biggest money pit on this planet and changing frequently just compounds the affect.

Keep your chin up mate.

Best regards

[zippy65]

Waynelod

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news but Toyota GB will pass you back and forth to the dealer and you will get nothing but closed doors.

I have had the same problem and as soon as my legal matters are dealt with i too will be selling my RAV 4. I was so excited to buy mine new and is the fourth Toyota i have owned. I know how you feel entirely. It doesn't matter if the car never breaks down again loyalty works on both sides.

[Parts-King]

Hello all, new here. Just bought a RAV4 D4D on Saturday, an 03 with 48k on the clock. Really like the car but it looks like already I have a DMF fault! Just lost drive this morning so it haas been towed into a garage. The mechanic called to say he suspected it was the DMF and now he was waiting for the company to decide whether to allow it to be done under warranty!!

The company I got the car from seem to have a dubious reputation for trying to avoid all warranty work....I knew this before I bought the car but believed Toyota was about as safe an option as I would get. I am pretty sure they will try to fob me off with "wear and tear", I don't understand how they can when I've only done 60 miles, surely that could not be classed as "fit for purpose" even by the very worst used car dealers?

I'll let you know how I get on but I reckon they will try to stall a bit so that I miss the 7 day cooling off period for the finance! Maybe I should just reject it now?

Wherever goods are bought they must "Conform to contract" meaning they must be of satisfactory quality, and NOT INHERANTLY faulty at the time of sale

Aspects of quality include freedom from minor defects, appearance, finish, durability and safety

If the goods DO NOT conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time" the period is not specified but if I were you, I would do it now, not 2 months down the line

You could of course choose to have it repaired at the sellers expense, but you must give him opportunity to do this and he would have to repair it in a reasonable timeframe. The excuse of "its not covered under warranty" is not a defence, the seller is responsible for the quality, nobody else

Kingo

[SmudgeRAV4]

I think Anchorman was spot on, the RAV did seem a litle noisy when I had the test drive but my previous one was petrol and I thought it was probably normal for a diesel. The last I heard from the selling garage was that they had started to strip it down to investigate though the mechanic thought it was DMF. The sellers won't agree to say to the repairing garage "Just fix it whatever", they prefer to authorise the repairs in stages. The selling garage have given me verbal assurance that it will be fixed at no cost to myself. I guess it's just a waiting game, the repairing garage have a full schedule this week and having to fax estimates and approvals backwards and forwards certainly will not speed things up!

Really once the job is done and the car is all going well I should be happy that this has gone straight away and somebody else is picking up the tab but I can't say I am happy at the mo.

Kingo is spot on too, free 30 day warranties don't mean jack, you are covered anyways under the sale of goods act. Thanks for your replies, I'll keep you updated and hopefully next time I'm on i'll have the car back!! (Think that might be next week judging by the ways things are going this week).

:D

[SmudgeRAV4]

Well my faith has been restored, garage have called tonight and the DMF and clutch have been replaced, pick up in the morning. Hurrah!!!

[Dragonslover]

Hello, bit of a different problem here, as we haven't parted with our money yet ! Have been and seen XT4 2.0 D4D @ Toyota dealer, for a part ex with our Yaris ( Ultra Reliable/ but too small) But Toyota dealer unwilling to come clean on whether this vehicle, should of been liable to DMF recall ?????? Its a JtheG20V000074~~~ Any idea ? Or who do I ask ???????? Or do I keep the Yaris . Thanks

[Parts-King]

Hello, bit of a different problem here, as we haven't parted with our money yet ! Have been and seen XT4 2.0 D4D @ Toyota dealer, for a part ex with our Yaris ( Ultra Reliable/ but too small) But Toyota dealer unwilling to come clean on whether this vehicle, should of been liable to DMF recall ?????? Its a JtheG20V000074~~~ Any idea ? Or who do I ask ???????? Or do I keep the Yaris . Thanks

Probably a little harsh to say unwilling to come clean about a recall, they were NOT subject to a recall. The parts were modified in production from a certain chassis number range. If the DMF has been replaced inside the dealer network, your dealer would be able to check who did it and when, if it was replaced outside the network, then who knows!

Not every RAV suffers from DMF failure, its a bit of a lottery unfortunatly. If you PM me the REG number I will see what I can find

Kingo

[raverchris]

D4-D 88K on the clock Registered Jan 03. No towbar. Mixed driving.

The clutch is slipping. Toyota dealer confirmed and estimated £1200-1800 depending on whether the DMF needs replacing.

I don't think I have any chance with warranty or goodwill payments from Toyota. A clutch replacement wouldn't surprise me - but the cost is a shock.

I must say I was impressed with the attention I received. I was visiting my sister and therefore it was not my local dealer, but the customer service person who looked at the car for me was very knowledgeable (retired mechanic) and confirmed most of what I had read on the forum. His explanation of the role of the DMF was neither oversimplified or complicated, and he was able to give me a good estimate on the breakdown of the parts and labour costs without tedious reference to books or a computer. He went through the stages of what had to be done as an explanation why it was so costly. He even said that in the present economic climate I might be able to get a good deal at an independent. If I thought he was going to be in charge of the job - I would probably have gone for it.

However, now I'm back home reality is kicking in. Local dealer £1100- 1600.

If the cost of a DMF is £600 ish for the part, there seems to be a bit of a discrepancy between the lower and upper limits.

Anyway tomorrow I am taking to an independent for an estimate.

Remember the flash code problem I had (34) which we could not identify. I just ignored it. Could it just be...?

After thinking about how much enjoyment and reliability I've had from the car I'm beginning to think it's worth parting with the money - just don't like doing it. Other people sometimes have to part with a lot more for their 4-legged pets.

I will be interested in any feedback

Cheers

[Beagh1958]

Just browsing different forums & see this is still a hot topic regarding DMF with some owners having to part with series money. HGV mechanic for a living working on DAF85/95 trucks etc. These vehicles kick out series torque figures & have done so for years (have 03 avensis, brilliant car) but trucks use solid steel flywheels with twin plate clutches on certain models. I understand the princible of DMF & can just about see justification for use. But have posed this question before, why can truck with mind bogling torque figures run a solid flywheel yet Toyota use DMF. Am well aware in the bigger scheme of things very very few DMFs fail in relation to Toyotas actually sold. But why not stick with what works & has done so for years.