Dual Mass Flywheels

[Parts-King]

Am well aware in the bigger scheme of things very very few DMFs fail in relation to Toyotas actually sold. But why not stick with what works & has done so for years.

Because Joe public wants a diesel 4x4 car to behave like a petrol car, plus the extra torque you get, they want a smooth ride with no lumpy tickover or diesel knock. The principle of DMF is fine, its the replacement cost that has everybody up in arms. These DMF's are used on lots of cars/vans these days and should be half the cost that they actually are IMHO

We are not the only ones with DMF failure THIS MANS MERC Motorhome needed one at 43,000 Mercedes with problems? Oh yes you better beleive it, Merc DO have problems, not just Toyota

Kingo

[Beagh1958]

Oh i believe all right, through are various vehicles fitted with DMF we no all about failure rate, please note in previous posting i said in the bigger scheme of things. One of the companies that we buy vehicles from in bulk now fits solid flywheel as standard & it is as smooth as any German Engine.

As to MERC i wouldn't go near one (well i couldn't afford one, as pointed out i drive Toyota) build quality & multitudes of electrical problems are common place. They are not the cars or vans they once had been. I would go Lexus any day including the DMF. My point was in the past diesels had solid flywheels & they worked just fine & to my mind used to be smooth running. So why the need for DMF, i suppose being a diesel car man i could never see the problem that everybody seemed to complain about ie: lumpy rough running engines. Diesel cars of previous generation could not of been that bad or nobody would have bought them. If your driving a DAF 45 around for a living you would be surprised at how smooth engine is. So it is really down to money, prices for DMFs when they go wrong are just not justifiable. In particular with all Japanese cars, it's a big rip-off.

[anchorman]

Oh i believe all right, through are various vehicles fitted with DMF we no all about failure rate, please note in previous posting i said in the bigger scheme of things. One of the companies that we buy vehicles from in bulk now fits solid flywheel as standard & it is as smooth as any German Engine.

As to MERC i wouldn't go near one (well i couldn't afford one, as pointed out i drive Toyota) build quality & multitudes of electrical problems are common place. They are not the cars or vans they once had been. I would go Lexus any day including the DMF. My point was in the past diesels had solid flywheels & they worked just fine & to my mind used to be smooth running. So why the need for DMF, i suppose being a diesel car man i could never see the problem that everybody seemed to complain about ie: lumpy rough running engines. Diesel cars of previous generation could not of been that bad or nobody would have bought them. If your driving a DAF 45 around for a living you would be surprised at how smooth engine is. So it is really down to money, prices for DMFs when they go wrong are just not justifiable. In particular with all Japanese cars, it's a big rip-off.

None of these manufacturers will spend a penny more than they need to. When I was in brake development I used to spend a lot of time in various manufacturers R&D centres. In these places they can measure anything and spend millions doing so.

Heavy diesels do not share the same characteristics as these small common rail versions. If you measure the shock when combustion takes place in a common rail engine it produces a violent "spike" of a shock wave. Heavy truck engines which now have electronic injection and very high injection pressures also produce a shock wave but simply absorb it better due to a very stiff crank case and a very big flywheel to smooth out the pulses.

The smaller diesels have to take extra measures to take away this "internal hammering". They use balance shafts inside the sump and a DMF to try to limit the long term effects of these shocks on the transmission. Due to problems some manufacturers have experimented with taking the DMF away but they usually counter that by reducing the compression ratio or de-rating the engine or even use a different gearbox which is more robust.

Non of us like the thought of DMF failure and all the cost implications that go with it. The manufacturer doesn't like the risk on the warranty outlay but we all have to accept they are a necessary thing and they will be with us for the foreseeable future. I personally would never replace a DMF with a solid flywheel and niether would the manufacturer.

Most manufacturers have a notion that manual transmissions will eventually be phased out and Toyota definitely share that view. In order to meet future emmission requirements the control of engine speed cannot be left with the driver and computerised boxes will meet the requirement. Manual gearboxes will become a thing of the past like that other uncontrollable device - the choke.

[Beagh1958]

I couldn't disagree with your points regarding diesel engines. As to DMFs, have been with us for a while know & like all things new or in this case relatively new the technology will be mastered soon. My point is cost, they are mass produced like all other parts on cars, but i think that all mass produced items with the equation of simple economics would see these items costing little to manufacture against cost of item over the parts counter. After all they are just a run of the mill part that you would see on pretty much any make of car or van on the road today.

I just happen to think like a lot of people in the trade & quite a few forum users that DMFs are incredibly over priced & i have never met anyone who can justify price when they go wrong.

[anchorman]

You can buy an LUK kit for about £695 including a clutch kit which is pretty much the same as the OE version.

There is often a large mark-up on parts other than regular service items. This applies to coil packs for petrols and ECUs etc which probably cost very little to produce. I agree with you it would be nice to see these things cheaper!

Most of the cost of changing the DMF on a RAV is labour and you can get that better by shopping around or getting the boiler suite on!

Cheers

[Parts-King]

Beagh1958: but i think that all mass produced items with the equation of simple economics would see these items costing little to manufacture against cost of item over the parts counter

That was my point, however you could apply the equation to anything on the high street. Just look at the markup on so called "Branded" goods, clothing, fashion, trainers and the like, all made in the far east for buttons and sold here for a massive profit by somebody (certainly not the dealers on the mark up on a DMF!) Anchorman is correct, an ECU probably costs very little to make, however the R&D costs are enourmous and have to be taken into consideration when applying a "Retail" price, I too would sell more of everything if it was cheaper, but on genuine parts we are tied into the price Toyota charge us

Kingo

[raverchris]

Hello everybody - more on my DMF problem.

I took it to an independent and they said it definitely needed a DMF, would be 10 hours work and £1600. When asked how they knew it needed a new DMF, they said from the vibration. After saying I could probably get the parts for less than £600 and a phone call to their supplier that came down to £1400.

At the Toyota dealership I was quoted for just the clutch. When I mentioned the flywheel was told it probably wouldn't need one and would only be about £70 extra. Thanks to this forum I was a bit more knowledgeable than the service/repair adviser, and after further consultation with they agreed it might need a DMF, but were willing to give me a discount with an estimate just over £1600. (The written estimate shows a cost for parts over £1000!)

Two Toyota dealers have told me that they will not know if I need a DMF until they strip down the car for the clutch replacement. The local one was quite positive that this was so, leaving me a thread of hope that I may not need it.

The independent has a good reputation, state they have done job before, and say they did a CRV a week or two ago. I just wonder how are they so sure the car needs a DMF (there's no obvious vibration when driving). Is it likely that an experienced mechanic can tell, but the dealership aren't able to justify their time for just an estimate?

Any comments/advice welcome.

[anchorman]

Chris

If the clutch is slipping you can't get around that so in other words you can safely let your chosen repairer remove the transmission to access the clutch. Once the clutch is out the DMF is exposed and easily accessed. Ask to be allowed to be present at that stage. You should remember that unless it is vibrating or noisy that it is very difficult to predict the life of the DMF. It should move back and forth as shown in the clip right back in post No1 shows and there is also a clip of a bad one from a VW.

Look up a Partco or other motor factor in the Yellow Pages and check a few for a price on a DMF/Flywheel kit and have that info ready. Kingo will get you agenuine one if you prefer.

Once they are at that stage the DMF only needs unbolting and the new one refitting.

Good luck mate.

[Jsy_Rav4]

Just bought (a few weeks ago) a Mar 2004 D-4D from an independant dealer - they replaced the clutch at my request but I only came upon this thread after they'd done the work and I'd bought it. Mileage = 22k

I'm getting increasingly concerned about a slight vibration I'm feeling through the steering (esp when turning to corner etc) which seems only to be apparent when moving above 15-20 mph or so.

I took it to the Toyota dealer and they did the usual (free) Visual Safety Check shortly after I bought it and I mentioned the slight vibration - they did not seem concerned.

However, having driven a Petrol RAV4 since 1995, I'm not sure if this is normal for a diesel or an early sign of DMF failure. No apparent "jingling" noises or throaty exhaust (other than I'd probably expect from a diesel).

Car is great other than that, just a bit worried at the mo. Independant sold it with 3 mth warranty - may ask them if I can extend this post the sale. However, if it is going now, at least it should still be within the 5yr period that Toyota seems to be covering these faults under.

[anchorman]

Your steering vibration is nothing to do with the DMF. Take it to a tyre specialist and let them look. You either have an "egg" (a seperation of the reinforcing chords) that brace the tyre or the wheels are out of balance.

You could jack it up and turn the wheels by hand which may show you the former above.

Cheers

[hemmy]

I have a 05 2005 RAV4 with 51,600 miles on the clock. I was having problems with various strange noises, took it to my local Toyota dealer who said that I had the flywheel needed replacing, and gave me a nice surprise of having to find £1700 to have it repaired.The car has been regularly serviced by this dealership, and they said that out of goodwill they would contact Toyota to see if the cost could be reduced, and they then said it could be done for £1300.I later surfed about the net and found various forums, and the possibility that my car could fall into an extended warranty of 5 years for a flywheel problem. The normal 3 year warranty expired in Mar 2008. What's my chances of getting it repaired under this 5 year warranty, and do you think the dealership will take any notice if I mention this?

[hemmy]

Has anybody got a Tel. No. for Toyota Customer Relations? Thanks.

[anchorman]

Customer Relations

Toyota (GB) PLC

Great Burgh

Burgh Heath

Epsom

Surrey

KT18 5UX

Phone 01737 363633

Fax 01737 367700

[hemmy]

Customer Relations

Toyota (GB) PLC

Great Burgh

Burgh Heath

Epsom

Surrey

KT18 5UX

Phone 01737 363633

Fax 01737 367700

Thanks for that. I've contacted them and had no luck with the warranty issue. I was told that my model Rav4 falls outside those that were covered(pre 2003), and that Toyota GB had reduced the costs of the parts from £856+VAT down to £515+ VAT and the dealership anticipated 9.5 hrs labour at £75. per hour ad had reduced that to £65 per hour.TGB told me there was no shifting on the warranty issue, but suggested as my car has been fully seviced by my dealership since new, MOT'd there, and a minor repair done there, thatI approach the dealership and try to get the labour reduced furthur, but I haven't a clue what figure I should approach(or accept if offered) them with.

[anchorman]

Tell them your local independant will do it for £30 an hour and ask them to compete. They might drop down somewhere inbetween.

Good luck.

[hemmy]

Tell them your local independant will do it for £30 an hour and ask them to compete. They might drop down somewhere inbetween.

Good luck.

Thanks for that. I've been into my dealership, haggled, and they brought it down to £55 per hour labour.I tried all ways to get it lower, but wouldn't budge.Still, from an original bill of well over £1700(nearer to £1800), it's down to a little over £1200.I'll still be on jam butties and water for a while,it.s still a huge bill, but not a bad as it was a couple of days ago.Many thanks to all who post on this forum as without your comments I would have been in the dark.

[anchorman]

Well done mate. Every bit helps. That labour rate is as about as low as I've seen it for a main dealer so quite an achievement. Try to get them to cap the time at no more than 9.5 hours though.

[zippy65]

Hi

I have been off the site for a little while and only just seen your post. You have probably agreed to the repair by now but the question you should be asking is 'why did the DMF fail in the first place. I had mine inspected and found that there was no reason other that componant failure. There is an ongoing problem with these parts and Toyota are trying to fob us off with a 'good will gesture'

zippy

[Parts-King]

Hi

I have been off the site for a little while and only just seen your post. You have probably agreed to the repair by now but the question you should be asking is 'why did the DMF fail in the first place. I had mine inspected and found that there was no reason other that componant failure. There is an ongoing problem with these parts and Toyota are trying to fob us off with a 'good will gesture'

zippy

The reason it failed is it is like any other componant, they can and do fail, just like a starter motor or alternator. The problem lies with the cost. The part itself is a huge price and so is the labour time for fitting it. There comes a point in a cars life where no matter how painful, you have to own the problem. Toyota's policy has been fairly rigid on these DMF failures, and they do take each failure on its own merits, some have had "Goodwill" gestures, others not, depending on circumstances, but on a car 5 years old why would you expect them to foot the whole bill? Sorry if that offends anybody but the level of goodwill starts to drop dramaticaly after 4 years, you will never get a full reimbursement after 5 years

I have mentioned in previous posts the likelyhood of DMF failure, to be honest, the amount of failures is tiny, but because of the costs involved, you are most likely to read about it. It is several months since I sold one, and we have only sold 4 all year, from a dealership that sells nearly 1000 new cars per year across two sites, translate that into a National figure and the numbers will be a very small percentage of sales that have the problem. To say you are being "Fobbed off" with a goodwill gesture is quite unjustified.

Kingo

[raverchris]

Thanks to everybody on this forum and especially Anchorman. You gave me the knowledge to question things a bit more and then decide whether I have trust in the answers.

To cut a long story short - I ended up taking it to a clutch and gearbox specialist near Salisbury. After a little test drive (about 5 yards), some listening, and feeling it start he felt doubtful that it would need the DMF replacing, but gave me a competitive quote if it did anyway. As luck would have it the DMF was well within spec. when they checked it and the new clutch fitted £624 total.

An estimating saving over £700 from taking it to the independent I previously mentioned!

[Ed S]

Daftrunner

Good, I'm glad you see it that way especially now it is in good running order. This an emotive issue and as I said I honestly know how you feel. It seems unfair when some get honoured and some don't - it makes you wonder what the decision making criterion is. However, it would be unfair to expect a life long warranty and on other makes (Ford, Vauxhall and many others) its 3 years or 60k and that is that - no discussion. However, given that the flywheel has traditionally been considered a "life of the car" part it would just taste a bit better if some sort of gesture was made.

That said, although they have made a slightly varying line in the sand on DMFs they are still recalling 4.1s for defective springs and standing the full costs so their ethics aren't all bad.

To both of you the ECU change is something that is sometimes undertaken if the dealer can see some evidence of rough handling and sometimes done as a belt and braces measure. It simply senses the power take up from the engine sensor inputs and limits the amount of power until the clutch is fully engaged (there is no input from the clutch only the way the engine reacts to the take up from the clutch). If we apply a bit of logic to this then you have to remember that there are 1000s of these things out there and not all suffer DMF failure but if you are unlucky enough to have it again then you are looking at another 5 years or 60k - ish.

The subject of warranties has been debated many times. Some swear by them, derive some peace of mind by having them and in some cases have reported some very good fortune by having them. My opinion and I stress it is my opinion is that these warranty companies are very wealthy and that is because they have pitched their policies at a level which statistically keeps them on top. I prefer to spend my £210 towards a repair IF it should be required. You have to decide which makes you feel better.

I have an unfair advantage on some that if my DMF fails outside warranty I will change it myself.

One final comment and that is when Toyota eventually convert every transmission to automatic - and they will, this issue will with time, resolve itself. Not so many years ago many thought that the humble choke cable could never be replaced.

Hi

[Ed S]

Daftrunner

Good, I'm glad you see it that way especially now it is in good running order. This an emotive issue and as I said I honestly know how you feel. It seems unfair when some get honoured and some don't - it makes you wonder what the decision making criterion is. However, it would be unfair to expect a life long warranty and on other makes (Ford, Vauxhall and many others) its 3 years or 60k and that is that - no discussion. However, given that the flywheel has traditionally been considered a "life of the car" part it would just taste a bit better if some sort of gesture was made.

That said, although they have made a slightly varying line in the sand on DMFs they are still recalling 4.1s for defective springs and standing the full costs so their ethics aren't all bad.

To both of you the ECU change is something that is sometimes undertaken if the dealer can see some evidence of rough handling and sometimes done as a belt and braces measure. It simply senses the power take up from the engine sensor inputs and limits the amount of power until the clutch is fully engaged (there is no input from the clutch only the way the engine reacts to the take up from the clutch). If we apply a bit of logic to this then you have to remember that there are 1000s of these things out there and not all suffer DMF failure but if you are unlucky enough to have it again then you are looking at another 5 years or 60k - ish.

The subject of warranties has been debated many times. Some swear by them, derive some peace of mind by having them and in some cases have reported some very good fortune by having them. My opinion and I stress it is my opinion is that these warranty companies are very wealthy and that is because they have pitched their policies at a level which statistically keeps them on top. I prefer to spend my £210 towards a repair IF it should be required. You have to decide which makes you feel better.

I have an unfair advantage on some that if my DMF fails outside warranty I will change it myself.

One final comment and that is when Toyota eventually convert every transmission to automatic - and they will, this issue will with time, resolve itself. Not so many years ago many thought that the humble choke cable could never be replaced.

Hi and thanks

I have found the discussion about the DMF ( just learnt the term from the web site) and say thank you to all thos involved.

We have a D4D and I have just had a very frustrating 2 days - driving on the sheet ice on Tuesday morning I thought I was getting wheel spin as the revs rushed up to 3500 and the car went nowhere. I then realised my traction had suddenly gone and I couldn't even drive off of the main road I was on. The Rav is an 02 plate and reading all the posting - especially

reading the postings by anchorman - it seems it was before they used the re-designed DMF. As a result the Rav is at the local dealers and they are quoting £2,500 for a replacement - even my independent is quoting £1500. I have had long discussions with Toyota 'Customer relations' and even when I pointed out that I knew this was an acknowledge fault on this model they would not help in any way. Apparently they extended a 'courtesy warranty' for 5 years if any Rav had this problem but did not issue a recall notice when they found the fault.

I know my Rav has done 95,000 and had a new clutch 3 years ago but it does not do any towing and hence has a fairly easy life. I think that this essentially was a vehicle 'not fit for purpose' and clearly it was acknowledged by Toyota but they preferred to wait until the vehicles broke down. The value of my Rav is such that it does not merit £2500 being spent on it and my recourse is to take Toyota to the small claims court. The two main points I was going to use in the case were:

1 - the vehicle was not 'fit for purpose' when it left the factory

2 - even thought Toyota must have realised the potential risks with sudden failure of the drive system they refused to send notices to owners or issue a recall notice.

If you have any other points I could use then any help would be much appreciated.

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club Ed.

Just about everyone who has had this problem has posted an emotive note which is natural having felt cheated by this situation.

Before you spend any money attempting to sue Toyota, just keep in mind they have produced thousands of these things of which many have served many years. I doubt you would win anything for "fit for purpose" as the vehicle does pretty much what it was designed to do but you may get further with "merchantable quality". However, Mr T has a mighty big legal department and based on how many other manufacturers suffer with DMF problems I don't think they would have any trouble proving they are no worse than anyone using what is a necessary component - however unpopular the DMF is, things would be worse without it.

I promise you that I know how you (and many others) feel but in your position I would dwell on it for a while but work on the assumption you are going to have to take it on the chin. Toyota concessions when offered rarely work out to be better than taking it to a local indy so try shopping around.

All the best mate.

[hertsnminds]

You have an 02 plate car with 95,000 miles on the clock. When Toyota sold the car it had a 3 year 60,000 mile warranty. I am not sure why you think Toyota are at fault.

If you wanted a car with a 5 year warranty then the car for you was any Hyundai. If you wanted a 7 year 100,000 miles warranty then your only choice would be a Kia Ceed.

If you have a Toyota Assured vehicle you may be able to use this

All Toyota Approved vehicles have been thoroughly investigated to check their history. We have increased the vehicle age eligibility of used Toyota vehicles on the scheme from 5 years and 60,000 miles, to seven years with no upper mileage limit, to offer you even greater peace of mind.

and this

All major components of your vehicle are included in the 12 month Toyota Warranty. Either you keep the remainder of the original 3 year, 60,000 mile warranty, or we extend the Warranty to cover 12 months/unlimited mileage from the date of purchase

from Toyota's website

http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/...=Auto%20Assured

If they will give a 7 year old car with unlimited milage a Toyota Assured 12 month warranty you may have a case.

[ma1lik]

Hi guys, I recently bought a 51 reg 5 door rav vx D4D i didnt know about this problem at the time however i saw this car advertised fairly reasonable price so i trekked from London to sheffield to go and have a look at her.

Got to sheffield had a butchers around the car and overhall very good condition for its age interior and exterior.

Took it for a drive and i did hear a kind of rattling noise, almost like a noisy release bearing but louder when stationary and changing gear. Didnt think much of it at the time but that was my mistake.

Bought the car £4100, 99,000 miles few extras bluetooth hands free and dvd screens so i tought not a bad deal with the goodides.

Drove down to london no problems. Few days later i noticed the gear change begining to feel sticky and few days got to the point i had to force it into gear.

Spoke to a freind of mine he said clutch realse bearing so would be better off changing the clutch to avoid any further issues, bought a new clutch from toyota £240. Paid £160 for fitting.

Got the car back gear change still felt a bit sticky but again didnt think much of it thought it would get better as i drive it.

Few nights Later i had to pick some parts from peterborough for another car so off i went in my rav and guess what as soon as i got off the motorway clunk clunk clunk total loss of power, i just about had enough roll to get onto the hard shoulder.

Along came plod ,nice guy i must say very helpfull and helped us push the car semi on the verge, good old dad saves the day and decides to renew his breakdown cover so we get recoverd back to the garage without to much headache.

Guy who fitted the clucth inspected the car and had it checked out and confirmed DMF failure.

Theres my saving a few bob completely going out the window now as im ring toyota and on the net for a replacement and cant get on cheaper than £600.

Good old euro car parts had one in stock and managed to get it off them trade £450. The guy charged me £100 for fitting it so i total i had to spend £950 getting this mess sorted.

It still cost me less than £5000 but i guess its one of those things you live and learn. having all this headache, the plus side is i think the rav is a fantastic motor and apart from the DMF failure i cant fault it in anyway whatsoever.

Thanks for reading.