Dual Mass Flywheels

[Paco1]

Hi All

New member on this forum

This DMF thing is getting me down :(

My wifes 2002 D4D 2.0 RAV (68k) has been stood for a while and whilst having the MOT done i asked the garage to take a look at the clutch as the pedal just didn't sem right (difficult to explain in words but quite slack and only seemed to be doing anything at the bottom of the stroke). As it had been stoood he suggested that it might just need bleeding which he duly did. MAde a little difference but still didn't seem 100%.

Went to pick up a horse trailer (empty) today and on way back clutch started to slip on incline on motorway. Got worst so pulled over with the usual burning smell and smoke. Managed to get into 2nd and trundle off the motorway and managed to get within 1 mile of home before a steep incline took its toll. Not had any of the banging or so called exhaust noises that other posters talk about just the slipping.

No drive yet the pedal now seems to react how it should

Now a little history. About 2 1/2 years ago had a clutch problem and took to a well respected indpendent for clutch change. Whilst changing clutch he advised that flywheel was knackered and should change that too otherwise no real point in changing clutch. Took his advice and duly paid up the £1300. Ouch

Could it be that it is just the clutch ( the car has regularly pulled a loaded trailer at the top end of it's limit) or has the DMF problem resurfaced. It has only done around 10-15k since the last change. Worst still could it be that the independent changed the clutch but didn't change the flywheel.

Don't think I could stomach another bill like the last one. Comments welcomed please

[boltondirtbag]

hi all

first post and to be honest i m a bit annoyed on behalf of my mum. I ve just learnt that she has had to replace her Flywheel at a very substantial cost. The car is fixed now and was initially taken to a local garage who sub-contacted the work out to a Toyota garage.

I am confused if my mum can attempt to claim any assistance with this payment and would welcome any information to assist this. This has annoyed me even more than most as my mums car is a 55 plate and has completed 34000 miles and has been regularly serviced by a very careful driver. The car is mainly used to commute to and from work and the odd trip to Blackpool and has never been used to tow anything.

Any assistance or help would be appreciated

Thanks Barry

[anchorman]

Hi All

New member on this forum

This DMF thing is getting me down :(

My wifes 2002 D4D 2.0 RAV (68k) has been stood for a while and whilst having the MOT done i asked the garage to take a look at the clutch as the pedal just didn't sem right (difficult to explain in words but quite slack and only seemed to be doing anything at the bottom of the stroke). As it had been stoood he suggested that it might just need bleeding which he duly did. MAde a little difference but still didn't seem 100%.

Went to pick up a horse trailer (empty) today and on way back clutch started to slip on incline on motorway. Got worst so pulled over with the usual burning smell and smoke. Managed to get into 2nd and trundle off the motorway and managed to get within 1 mile of home before a steep incline took its toll. Not had any of the banging or so called exhaust noises that other posters talk about just the slipping.

No drive yet the pedal now seems to react how it should

Now a little history. About 2 1/2 years ago had a clutch problem and took to a well respected indpendent for clutch change. Whilst changing clutch he advised that flywheel was knackered and should change that too otherwise no real point in changing clutch. Took his advice and duly paid up the £1300. Ouch

Could it be that it is just the clutch ( the car has regularly pulled a loaded trailer at the top end of it's limit) or has the DMF problem resurfaced. It has only done around 10-15k since the last change. Worst still could it be that the independent changed the clutch but didn't change the flywheel.

Don't think I could stomach another bill like the last one. Comments welcomed please

You can have a burned out clutch independantly of the DMF especially under your conditions. When they remove the clutch there will be some backlash in the DMF but if they follow these guidelines for inspection they can ignore it;

4.3_DMF_check_procedure.pdf

Having said that, if there is any doubt it will be a lot cheaper to do it while it is all stripped (you can buy one yourself for about £500 including a clutch).

[anchorman]

hi all

first post and to be honest i m a bit annoyed on behalf of my mum. I ve just learnt that she has had to replace her Flywheel at a very substantial cost. The car is fixed now and was initially taken to a local garage who sub-contacted the work out to a Toyota garage.

I am confused if my mum can attempt to claim any assistance with this payment and would welcome any information to assist this. This has annoyed me even more than most as my mums car is a 55 plate and has completed 34000 miles and has been regularly serviced by a very careful driver. The car is mainly used to commute to and from work and the odd trip to Blackpool and has never been used to tow anything.

Any assistance or help would be appreciated

Thanks Barry

Welcome to the club Barry.

Toyota do make some payments towards the cost of replacement but it depends on who serviced it (Toyota Dealer?) and in any case you will struggle to claim retrospectively. If you have 3rd party warranty they will sometimes cough up but I presume you don't or you would have done so already.

It probably doesn't make you feel any better but all modern diesels have DMFs and some are much more troublesome than Toyotas. It is also to some extent a matter of luck and you may never have to change another one again.

[niceritchie]

Well, I'd hoped having sold the Townace, and bought a reliable 03 Rav D4d I wouldn't be visiting this forum much.

Got a slight knock that I can feel through the clutch on tickover, what sounds like a loose exhaust when pulling away and under load, increased vibration in first at low speed, and it's getting worse. Vehicle has done 87k.

Doesn't look too good from what I've read here. Any advice gratefully received although I think it's all been covered already. B*****ks.

[anchorman]

I think it's all been covered already. B*****ks.

I think so too but I hope we're wrong.

[HEMI]

he and you are not wrong,thats the dreaded DMF playing up again,like I said before and I'll keep saying it,solid's the way to go,lol(I know its not a laughing matter really)

[niceritchie]

HEMI, and any others out there. I know it's lazy and I could probably trawl this thread and gather all the info I need, but could you tell me what you mean by solid.

Also, as I'm not going to get any help from Toyota on this, advice on parts, or kits would be appreciated. Just a link, or even telling me to refer to a certain page.

[anchorman]

HEMI, and any others out there. I know it's lazy and I could probably trawl this thread and gather all the info I need, but could you tell me what you mean by solid.

Also, as I'm not going to get any help from Toyota on this, advice on parts, or kits would be appreciated. Just a link, or even telling me to refer to a certain page.

With respect you should trawl through this link because there is a very strong argument for not fitting a solid flywheel and while HEMI is obviously quite happy with his conversion, in the scheme of things it is very new and may cost an engine or transmission in the fulness of time.

You should consider this option carefully.

[niceritchie]

HEMI, and any others out there. I know it's lazy and I could probably trawl this thread and gather all the info I need, but could you tell me what you mean by solid.

Also, as I'm not going to get any help from Toyota on this, advice on parts, or kits would be appreciated. Just a link, or even telling me to refer to a certain page.

With respect you should trawl through this link because there is a very strong argument for not fitting a solid flywheel and while HEMI is obviously quite happy with his conversion, in the scheme of things it is very new and may cost an engine or transmission in the fulness of time.

You should consider this option carefully.

I've had a good read and now understand why a solid flywheel could cause other major problems, I've been quoted £1210 +VAT for the parts and work using non-Toyota bits and £1310 + VAT for Toyota parts. This is scary money, does it sound about right?

EDIT This price includes clutch replacement.

[anchorman]

HEMI, and any others out there. I know it's lazy and I could probably trawl this thread and gather all the info I need, but could you tell me what you mean by solid.

Also, as I'm not going to get any help from Toyota on this, advice on parts, or kits would be appreciated. Just a link, or even telling me to refer to a certain page.

With respect you should trawl through this link because there is a very strong argument for not fitting a solid flywheel and while HEMI is obviously quite happy with his conversion, in the scheme of things it is very new and may cost an engine or transmission in the fulness of time.

You should consider this option carefully.

I've had a good read and now understand why a solid flywheel could cause other major problems, I've been quoted £1210 +VAT for the parts and work using non-Toyota bits and £1310 + VAT for Toyota parts. This is scary money, does it sound about right?

EDIT This price includes clutch replacement.

Yes it doesn't sound too bad as they often come out at £1800 plus. There have been some owners gettting them fitted for slightly less at a trusted independant.

Good luck.

[HEMI]

a solid flywheel will not give any engine/transmission issues,why doesnt anyone listen to a man who has fitted loads of solid flywheels to dmf motors and with no issues,the first one we fitted was about 5 years ago and he still has the motor and still comes to us for servicing and mot's and he has no problems

[Davrav]

a solid flywheel will not give any engine/transmission issues,why doesnt anyone listen to a man who has fitted loads of solid flywheels to dmf motors and with no issues,the first one we fitted was about 5 years ago and he still has the motor and still comes to us for servicing and mot's and he has no problems

What I can't understand is, if as you say, there have been no problems with those you have fitted, why do so many manufacturers continue fit DMFs to such a wide range of vehicles?

No manufacturer will spend a penny more than they have to to produce a vehicle and, as we all know, DMFs are complex and expensive units.

Bit of a conundrum to me at least.

[niceritchie]

I really think Toyota should at the very least supply the replacement parts for free. I'm paying for a part that they know will most likely fail again. This means I will sell the vehicle on, knowing it has a fault, something that I'm not happy about but that doesn't seem to bother Toyota.

In my business, if there is an issue of this sort, I just fix it. Then when people meet in the pub or wherever, my reputation would be that of someone who understands and just sorts things out. It may cost me a little, but I keep my integrity and reputation.

I did a fair bit of research into my new car, not enough obviously, and chose Toyota on reliability and customer service, ie their reputation. Now I'd do anything in my power to dissuade people from buying a diesel version. To be charged anything up to £1800 every 50,000 or so miles is criminal.

[Davrav]

I really think Toyota should at the very least supply the replacement parts for free. I'm paying for a part that they know will most likely fail again. This means I will sell the vehicle on, knowing it has a fault, something that I'm not happy about but that doesn't seem to bother Toyota.

In my business, if there is an issue of this sort, I just fix it. Then when people meet in the pub or wherever, my reputation would be that of someone who understands and just sorts things out. It may cost me a little, but I keep my integrity and reputation.

I did a fair bit of research into my new car, not enough obviously, and chose Toyota on reliability and customer service, ie their reputation. Now I'd do anything in my power to dissuade people from buying a diesel version. To be charged anything up to £1800 every 50,000 or so miles is criminal.

Have to say I agree. For any manufacturer to continue the use of flawed technology without a substantially extended warranty is highly questionable especially if, as is claimed by the manufacturers, only a very small number fail. Unfortunately owners are doing the long term testing for the companies.

Toyota are not unique in this and, with the increasingly rapid development of a whole host of products, it is something we are all going to be more and more exposed to. Anyone who has had an iPod fail will be well aware of this.

That being said, vehicles are subjected to a wide range of use and abuse that is totally outside the manufacturers control.

[anchorman]

a solid flywheel will not give any engine/transmission issues,why doesnt anyone listen to a man who has fitted loads of solid flywheels to dmf motors and with no issues,the first one we fitted was about 5 years ago and he still has the motor and still comes to us for servicing and mot's and he has no problems

What I can't understand is, if as you say, there have been no problems with those you have fitted, why do so many manufacturers continue fit DMFs to such a wide range of vehicles?

No manufacturer will spend a penny more than they have to to produce a vehicle and, as we all know, DMFs are complex and expensive units.

Bit of a conundrum to me at least.

Exactly.

HEMI I know you are pro solid flywheel and you may have fitted many but the fact remains that vehicle builders are fitting them based on very expensive testing and development costs - not "boffins trying to impress the boss". You are entitled to your opinion but if long term use of solid flywheel statistically causes more failures then by using them you will find yourself in the even more unenviable situation than modern day manufacturers by having to explain to unsuspecting owners why their engine or gearbox failed. Your gut feeling isn't good enough and to get some representative results you need a sample size of thousands.

[HEMI]

Where is the proof that solid flywheels screw engines longterm then?the customer with the 5 year old solid flywheel has no problems and nor have the other customers that I have replaced with solids,that in itself is proof enough for me,you know the saying"proof of the pudding and all that"

Before the DMF was "invented" what did manufacturers use? solid flywheels methinks and their engines never suffered.We have never replaced a solid flywheel when we replace a clutch but we have replaced every single DMF when replacing a clutch on DMF fitted cars,now surely that says something

[Davrav]

Where is the proof that solid flywheels screw engines longterm then?the customer with the 5 year old solid flywheel has no problems and nor have the other customers that I have replaced with solids,that in itself is proof enough for me,you know the saying"proof of the pudding and all that"

Before the DMF was "invented" what did manufacturers use? solid flywheels methinks and their engines never suffered.We have never replaced a solid flywheel when we replace a clutch but we have replaced every single DMF when replacing a clutch on DMF fitted cars,now surely that says something

I have to say that it would be useful to have some proof/data/test results - under what conditions do solid flywheels cause engine/transmission failure?

[anchorman]

If you read any of the technical descriptions on dual mass flywheels they say the purpose is to protect the engine and transmission from the torque spikes generated by the engine - there are several attached further up this post.

Having worked in a vehicle development environment I can tell you that everything is driven by cost and believe me they practice the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach. When we were developing brake pads we would proffer embellishments that might improve the way the pad behaved and is some cases even if the engineers accepted it the purchasing people would throw it out UNLESS it was cheaper and then it was the best idea since sliced bread. Vehicle manufacturers do not spend one percent of one penny more than they need to and if modern vehicle have DMFs then their development work has told them that it is absolutely necessary.

HEMI you are forgetting that what has changed is the diesel engine itself. Anyone who drove a diesel from even the early 90s will remember that the performance was miles away from what modern diesels will produce. To some extent this has been driven by improvements in technology and the rest is in emission requirements but changed they have and the astonishing torque is not delivered in the same way that former diesels were. And what about your "field trials" with solid flywheels? The fact is that if you have fitted 100 solid flywheels and 100 DMFs there is a good chance that neither of them would have failed because DMF failure is not inevitable and if we only knew some accurate figures we might demonstrate the truth one way or the other.

It is not my intention to contradict what you say, in fact if we could prove properly - and that is not by gut feel or small sample size with not enough cross section of duty that solid flywheels are categorically the solution I will be as keen to promote the solution to any unfortunate owner as you seem to be. What I am nervous about is giving bad advice which may in the long term cause even more catastrophe than the DMF risk. What makes me ever so cautious is that the vehicle builders stick with them against all odds and they have rather more resource at their disposal than all of us TOCers put together. Who knows, the DMF might evolve into something else with rubber or fluid but I doubt whether it will revert to solid otherwise it would have already done so.

I'm not at all bothered about eating humble pie and if eventually it is proven that you are right about this I will be patting you on the back and thanking you but for the time being my money is on the vehicle manufacturers - sorry

[HEMI]

You cant honestly say that manufacturers get it right can you?so how come every manuf has had recalls and changed the design of the fault,Vauxhalls did it on the sly by changing timing belt tensioners on all the 1.4 dohc whilst they were in for service a few years ago and not telling customers,I could go on,so they do get it wrong,to err is human

[anchorman]

You cant honestly say that manufacturers get it right can you?so how come every manuf has had recalls and changed the design of the fault,Vauxhalls did it on the sly by changing timing belt tensioners on all the 1.4 dohc whilst they were in for service a few years ago and not telling customers,I could go on,so they do get it wrong,to err is human

They might have changed timing belt tensioners but they still use DMFs on all their diesel cars. I think we are hogging this HEMI so perhaps we should just keep each other informed of developments/something new

[Babybadger]

Judging by the cost of these, I would add up if it is worth getting the diesel or getting a petrol judging by the cost of the DMF.

I think I would rather wear the cost of petrol and have the 2.0vvti and automatic gearbox option, just to increase the reliabilty v cost factor ..... I don't think the petrols use a DMF? I maybe wrong as my old focus 2.0 had one....

[Mereside]

I am a fan of the VW group DSG gearbox having had them in Audi in an A3 3.2V6 and a diesel 140.

I am looking at the new Rav4 diesel auto 6 speed.

Before I get too excited, and I have had a look at how the DSG works but my head imploded once I got past the simple bits, does the new 6 speed auto have a dmf in the system.

Bearing in mind the above a simple non technical answer would be appreciated.

Regards

Mereside

[anchorman]

I am a fan of the VW group DSG gearbox having had them in Audi in an A3 3.2V6 and a diesel 140.

I am looking at the new Rav4 diesel auto 6 speed.

Before I get too excited, and I have had a look at how the DSG works but my head imploded once I got past the simple bits, does the new 6 speed auto have a dmf in the system.

Bearing in mind the above a simple non technical answer would be appreciated.

Regards

Mereside

Short answer - no.

There is another shock absorbing member in there with radial springs coupled to the torque converter but I'll have to study a bit more to just understand what is what. It is not a conventional arrangement.

New_car_auto_gearbox.pdf

[HEMI]

Just another update for you folks,I know its not a Toyota but we have just had another Ford Mondeo diesel with DMF failure,its only covered 56k and guess what we've fitted???? yep a Solid flywheel,runs beautifully now,no clatters,no stalling or lurching that it's suffered with since the owner(regular customer)bought it 3 years ago...Just thought I'd let you know