Rav 4 D4d 2005

[BELAIR]

I've just found this forum, I' have been having quite a few problems with my Rav4 and just wondering whether anyone else has had similar problems or has any advice! Excuse my ignorance about cars in general

I had a 3dr 1.8 petrol and part-exed it in just over a year ago for a 5dr 05 plate 2lt diesel as I needed more space, it has 17k on it. 2 months after having it the alternator went and had to be replaced, since then it's been okay but haven't been very happy with it's fuel economy at very very best I get near 35mpg out of it but more often about 30.

Over the last month or so it started having cold start problems, in fact thinking back it has never really started very quickly - anyway it has now been in the Toyota garage for 3 weeks and they still haven't got a clue. It has had the glow plugs replaced, then the starter motor then a whole series or other parts including having a wait 5 days for delivery of some other parts from Holland - still nothing has working. they now have a donor vehicle so they can borrow parts from that - after having to put up with a Yaris for 2 weeks, I now have got a new XTR Rav 4 which although I know it 2 years newer, makes me realise how poor mine has been performing.

It seems to me obviously the garage is not getting anywhere fast and my rav is basically a badd'un What do you all reckon?

[Fujisan]

Welcome to the TOC BELAIR

Very sorry to hear about your troubles. If your patient somebody will be along soon, who I'm sure can offer you the technical advice and help you require.

[bothwell_buyer]

Welcome to the forum - an ever-growing home for 5-door RAV specialists!!

I can't say much about the RAV diesel ; and if you hang around this forum will find I'm no lover of the 5 door ...but that aside, it seems from what you've written that the garage is going down the electrical avenue. Not sure why they would change a starter of a vehicle with only 17k?? Unless they thought it was sucking up too many amps/dropping the voltage.

However, having an alternator go at this young age seems a bit mysterious...if it was faulty and was resulting in peaks /troughs of voltage then perhaps damage has been done elsewhere? schm I think is the electronics wizard on this forum so might be able to suggest where.

In the meantime I'd have fun with the new RAV - although Ben Nevis is a bit slippy this time of year!! You couldn't nip down to Halfords for a set of plates to match your own RAV and just re-plate the new one???

[BELAIR]

Welcome to the forum - an ever-growing home for 5-door RAV specialists!!

I can't say much about the RAV diesel ; and if you hang around this forum will find I'm no lover of the 5 door ...but that aside, it seems from what you've written that the garage is going down the electrical avenue. Not sure why they would change a starter of a vehicle with only 17k?? Unless they thought it was sucking up too many amps/dropping the voltage.

However, having an alternator go at this young age seems a bit mysterious...if it was faulty and was resulting in peaks /troughs of voltage then perhaps damage has been done elsewhere? schm I think is the electronics wizard on this forum so might be able to suggest where.

In the meantime I'd have fun with the new RAV - although Ben Nevis is a bit slippy this time of year!! You couldn't nip down to Halfords for a set of plates to match your own RAV and just re-plate the new one???

Thanks for the reply!!

It now has 30K on it - but still.. it seems to me the garage is clutching at straws Yep the new courtesy one is super-nice and planning a nice long outing tomorrow in it and with regards to the plates...now that sounds like a plan!!! I reckon I will have this one for a while...

[chatman]

If your car went wrong so soon after purchase...I would be onto the dealer to find out it's background and why the last owner sold it on....If the dealer has sold it on knowing it was "Not Fit For Purpose"

The parts being replaced so soon I believe the dealer is just replacing for the sake of it and not diagnosing the issue properly...(hope all these were under warranty) Replacing the Glow Plugs after so short a time is again not usual...If they were caked in soot and gunked up then all fair. Have seen some issues on the Avensis forum about starter motors causing them to not start properly when cold.... You should not be getting low 30 mpg in the RAV....

Been seeing on here lately some issues relating the the new model rav 4.3 and faulty ECU's....

Welcome to the club and hope issues get sorted soon. No point joining this happy RAV forum only to be disapointed by the RAV...We dont want that....Stick around and other members will be along soon to chip in.....

O and we need more RAV 5 door Diesel owners as it drives Bothy bonkers and he starts speakin (well typing in Scottish) your lucky he replied to myou in english....Give it a couple of days (or until he sees this) :lol: :lol:

[shcm]

Hello BELAIR,

welcome to TOC, wish it was in better circumstances.

Just mulling this one over and it could be a whole host of things. I assume they have checked the whole glow plug system out, glow plug relay etc. Then there's fueling, or engine speed sensor or..........

Can you give us a bit more info? Does the engine crank reasonably quickly and not start or does it struggle to turn over? As Bothy says alternator change is a bit strange, but maybe it was struggling to maintain 14V or so.

As Chatman says it doesn't sound like they are thinking about this one properly and it is strange to change all of these components so soon.

Your mpg of course will depend on the type of journeys you are making to some extent.

Hey Bothy - now I am a wizard? I take that as a big complement, especially from your good self.

Henceforth I shall be know as "shcm the Silver" and my trusty RAV steed will be know as "Shadowemail" (well a fax is a bit old fashioned now isn't it?) ;)

Sorry BELAIR, we are all a bit mad here.

Cheers

[chatman]

Henceforth I shall be know as "shcm the Silver" and my trusty RAV steed will be know as "Shadowemail" (well a fax is a bit old fashioned now isn't it?) ;)

Sorry BELAIR, we are all a bit mad here.

Cheers

Hey shcm the silver..... here's a special emiticon for you to use.... :hokus-pokus: use it as your sig on all forum replies.....

[BELAIR]

Hello BELAIR,

welcome to TOC, wish it was in better circumstances.

Just mulling this one over and it could be a whole host of things. I assume they have checked the whole glow plug system out, glow plug relay etc. Then there's fueling, or engine speed sensor or..........

Can you give us a bit more info? Does the engine crank reasonably quickly and not start or does it struggle to turn over? As Bothy says alternator change is a bit strange, but maybe it was struggling to maintain 14V or so.

As Chatman says it doesn't sound like they are thinking about this one properly and it is strange to change all of these components so soon.

Your mpg of course will depend on the type of journeys you are making to some extent.

Hey Bothy - now I am a wizard? I take that as a big complement, especially from your good self.

Henceforth I shall be know as "shcm the Silver" and my trusty RAV steed will be know as "Shadowemail" (well a fax is a bit old fashioned now isn't it?) ;)

Sorry BELAIR, we are all a bit mad here.

Cheers

Cheers shcm, and everyone else for their replies, sorry I have joined on such a sad note - my poor Rav

They seem to have checked out most things - the parts from Amsterdam were something to do with the fuel injection system which they said they had pinpointed it down to, but it didn't work.

It is turning-over without any problem but not firing, on a cold day it has been taking about 2/3 attempts. This is my first diesel and I don't think this has ever fired as quickly as it should and slowly got worse, I have had it 14 months and it is 3yrs next March so everything is under warranty.

I am mainly driving 15 miles to work and back along A roads - but then at weekends often drive mostly motorways and still can't seem to do more than 35mpg on a really good run.

I am just wondering whether the alternator, the problem now and the poor mileage are all connected somehow...

[bothwell_buyer]

Hello BELAIR,

welcome to TOC, wish it was in better circumstances.

Just mulling this one over and it could be a whole host of things. I assume they have checked the whole glow plug system out, glow plug relay etc. Then there's fueling, or engine speed sensor or..........

Can you give us a bit more info? Does the engine crank reasonably quickly and not start or does it struggle to turn over? As Bothy says alternator change is a bit strange, but maybe it was struggling to maintain 14V or so.

As Chatman says it doesn't sound like they are thinking about this one properly and it is strange to change all of these components so soon.

Your mpg of course will depend on the type of journeys you are making to some extent.

Hey Bothy - now I am a wizard? I take that as a big complement, especially from your good self.

Henceforth I shall be know as "shcm the Silver" and my trusty RAV steed will be know as "Shadowemail" (well a fax is a bit old fashioned now isn't it?) ;)

Sorry BELAIR, we are all a bit mad here.

Cheers

Take it easy the noo - onythin ah say has tae be taken in the context meant ye ken. An remember, ah feel sorry fur fawk wi 5 door diesels....jist a matter o time til they see the light; get rid o the we'ens and enjoy 3 door RAVS.

The problem kind of sounds to me more and more like a voltage problem, but then surely those would show up on the fault codes!!?? Is the replacement alternator a new one or was it a renovation? Then again, the starting procedure relies more on the Battery hence my thoughts on a voltage problem

And as has been said, is there anyway you can contact the previous owner to find out a bit of history. I had a diesel Citroen bought new and written off basically after it was stolen. Got a surprise when a certain very well known garage chain had tried to sell it to a buyer who contacted me and I was able to say that the diesel engine had been driven with no water/oil and the garage had attempted to fix it! I refused to take the car back as the engine just wasn't right > and the new buyer refused then as well. It went to auction eventually.

Maybe not all doom and gloom but then a dealer should be able to fix these things!! What they are doing are reminiscent of what one does with Jaguars - just keep replacing parts in the hope that you find the problem by accident!!

Bit of pressure on the garage and a word with Trading Standards ?? I can caw some o ma mates frae aroon Glasgae tae fix em oot!!

[shcm]

Hey shcm the silver..... here's a special emiticon for you to use.... :hokus-pokus: use it as your sig on all forum replies.....

Excellent, thanks, but I don't think I'm cut out for this wizarding thing after all. Keep trying to turn you avatar into the real thing but it 's not working. Useless wand......... oh well, back to plain "shcm".

I am just wondering whether the alternator, the problem now and the poor mileage are all connected somehow...

Yes, you should really be getting better mpg than that.

It's probably not impossible for the starting and bad mpg to be related. The alternator? - not yet convinced by that.

Does it smoke excessively on cold start up?

Anchorman on here is a mechanical "wizard" ("here we go again!"). When he shows up he might have some pearls of wisdom to help you out.

If it's still under warranty, then maybe its time to give the dealer a harder (but polite) time!

[dave.m]

Hi Belair and welcome to TOC

Your problems sound like a job for Anchorman, but I would point out that the Rav XTR you are using

wont be much good for comparison. Its a bigger, newer, more powerful engine.

Good luck.

[BELAIR]

I am just wondering whether the alternator, the problem now and the poor mileage are all connected somehow...

Yes, you should really be getting better mpg than that.

It's probably not impossible for the starting and bad mpg to be related. The alternator? - not yet convinced by that.

Does it smoke excessively on cold start up?

Well the alternator was replaced last year anyway and has been fine since, but YES it does smoke excessively on cold start up!

[anchorman]

Hello all!

Been out delivering christmas cards!!

Belair - Welcome to the club. Before I get down to business on yours I will just cheer you up a bit. One of my seasonal cheer calls was to my brother in law who has a Ned Flanders (Land Rover Freelander to you). He had a problem with a misfire which he eventually traced to a faulty injector. This "thing" has the BMW TD4 engine and the injector is held in by 2 nuts on a "C" shaped collar. The problem is that the injector won't come out and he has been on the LR forum to find out that this is common. You cannot prize off the cam cover which surrounds the injector because it is made from plastic. The other owners suggest that he may have to smash the cover to get that injector out and that might mean smashing the other injectors. The typical cost of such a task? £2000.

Now to your problem. Bothy has quite rightly conluded that changing alternators is a waste of time - they should have just "drop tested" the Battery to eliminate that and shcm (and yes ignore his modesty - he is one of our resident electronics gurus and we are very lucky to have him) has already asked a very pertinent question - does it crank or turn over at what seems a normal speed? If it does I suspect your dealer is barking up the wrong tree. The very basic principle of getting an engine to run relies on three things:- compression, fuel and ignition. If it has those three magic ingredients it will run (maybe like a bag of pots but refinement is not an issue here)! The chances of your Toyota not having compression are virtually non existent and ignition comes from the temperature of compression (unless it is cold when the glow plugs which have been renewed assist) so those two are taken care of. To some extent those factors rely on sufficient cranking speed which is where the question comes from - does it always sound to be turning over normally when you attempt to start it?

Assuming it is then that brings us to the third factor and that is fuel- the very obvious starting point to any diesel mechanic.

Start at the very beginning (thats a very fine place to start) and that, no matter how unlikely it may seem should be the fuel filter. Your dealer should have checked for DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) which should identify low fuel pressure which could be the result of;

Fuel starvation - i.e.

Blocked fuel filter

Fuel pump SCV (Suction Control Valve) valves [this is actually a misnomer as it is the incorrect term used for the main pumping elements of the High Pressure Fuel Pump but a description often used]. The dealer could be familiar with the latter as it is not uncommon with the D4D engine.

The common rail assembly which incorporates a low pressure sensor and the pressure governing valve.

All the above need to be checked to take them out of the equation. Next;

Air being drawn into the fuel

It is vital that no air is drawn into the fuel as the fuel is put under very high pressure (approx 1500 bar or getting on for 22,000psi). This is necessary to atomise the fuel to almost a gas - achieving the high power and low emmisions expected of a modern common rail diesel. The fuel is drawn from the tank by the high pressure fuel pump and if there is any air being admitted at any of the pipe unions it will gather at the common rail and cause problems typical of those described. When up and running the injection system is capable of dealing with some air but it will manifest itself as a big problem when you come to start it from cold. It is an old trick to substitute the fuel delivery pipe from the filter to the high pressure pump with a piece of clear plastic tube as any air bubbles can clearly be seen as they pass (I'm sure somebody mentioned the need to replace fuel pipes following problems in the recent thread of "what troubles have you had so far").

Fuel running back to the tank.

When the engine is stopped, fuel remains present in all of the pipes and galleries. To stop it from running back to the tank there is a one way or non-return valve in the fuel filter head. If this becomes faulty then the fuel that would otherwise be primed ready for the next cold start would run back by gravity to the fuel tank. At the next cold start it would be necessary to wait until the engine has cranked long enough for the high pressure pump to resume the working pressure in the common rail.

Excessive smoke

You need to be careful about what is excessive. Unburned and or rich fuel is indicated by thick/white smoke that smells strongly of unburned diesel and not the common smell of exhaust. You can expect to see quite large volumes of steam (like with a petrol) during these cold days. That is normal and is the result of hydrogen and oxygen atoms being united (H2O) under compression. All engines generate approximately one gallon of water for each gallon of fuel they burn but you can only see it on cold days when it becomes visible as steam. If it truly is smoke then you should make the dealer aware as this could point to an injector, injector drive unit (IDU) or ECU fault.

Belair, I know you said you were not too mechanically minded and so I assume you are entrusting your dealer with the work (quite rightly) but not all car mechanics gell well with diesels, it was traditionally the domain of the truck and van mechanics. In this case you might have to lead them a little and ask if they have considered these issue with the fuel system.

I will reiterate that if it turns over normally when cold then they should turn their attention to the fuel system.

Regards

[JHRC]

Hi BELAIR and welcome to TOC,

You have been give some very good information on what could be wrong with your RAV and I have some experience of other diesel that I have owned and carried out my own maintenance, like Anchorman said your diesel supply need to be perfect any leak or air getting into your fuel line will cause bad starting. I once had a problem where I changed my fuel filter with a unipart filter and I could not bleed the fuel lines it kept drawing air, evenually put back old filter and problem was cured. I also had a problem with a union which drew air and required additional tightening as they need to be really tight, this time it only needed a very small amount of movement to tighten the union, but it again solved the problem.

Another cause for bad starting and excess fuel consumption is your engine timing (timing belt could be a tooth out or pump needing slight adjustment), as no engine is set up the same, a tweak here and there is required to tune most motor.

My last suggestion is the ECU which controls the engine, if the fuel injectors have been changed, then they have to programmed into the ECU.

I hope that all the suggestions have helped.

Regards Jim.

[BELAIR]

Wow - thanks so much for all your help, I think I will have a word with the Toyota garage and get a more depth explanation of what they have done so far and then make some suggestions on what has been said on here.

It does start fine when it isn't a cold start - and always seems to turn over normally just doesn't fire. I just have to keep the key turned for so long an I have my doubts that in this cold weather the garage would even be getting it started. So it looks like it may be a fuel problem - I think the parts we waited a week for (from Amsterdam) were to do with the fuel system

Thanks again you have been a great help, I just feel so disappointed with this car and just don't trust it after these problems before it is even 3 years old

[bothwell_buyer]

Being such a disbeliever in 5 door RAV Diesels, could the engine be suffering from a head gasket leakage?? EG from a previous over-heating problem??

I only say this cos I had a Humber sceptre 1966 which had similar problems; purely petrol; naff all to do with Toyota and light years away from a diesel, yet it was a simple problem that caused the bad starting etc.

I never found out the outcome cos the garage went bust and the proprietor stole the Sceptre!!! Polis are now in pursuit of what was quite a unique car being an automatic.

I'd imagine the T dealer would have checked compressions but ??

Having had ma RAV 3 DOOR PETROL FOR nearly 14 years, I have tendency to support the petrol argument.

Then again, the reason why this forum has so many 5 door diesel RAV gurus is............ because 3 door petrol is more reliable and no-one with 3 doors petrol ever has to visit for advice???

3 Door RAVs are for life and not just for Christmas......................

Sit my elementary low flying pilots license next week.

[BELAIR]

3 Door RAVs are for life and not just for Christmas......................

I did have a 3dr petrol - I had nightmare alarm problems with that.. But other than that I was pleased with it but unfortunately all my dogs didn't squeeze into it!

[bothwell_buyer]

3 Door RAVs are for life and not just for Christmas......................

I did have a 3dr petrol - I had nightmare alarm problems with that.. But other than that I was pleased with it but unfortunately all my dogs didn't squeeze into it!

Shame - the alarms were never unnerstood by the dealers either. Dogs - ye shuid hae fitted a towbar an invested in some bungee rope for em.

Hope you get things sorted cos there's nothin wurse than spending time at the dealers when ye cuid be gliding thru the air in yer RAV (or theirs...)

[BELAIR]

Just had a call from the garage, they had 2 questions for me...

1. Have you the receipt from last time you put fuel in as they are wondering whether you put petrol in it by mistake

A: No I haven't it was near a month ago now, I always double check and this problem started at least a month ago and got worse and worse

2. When did you have your Parrott bluetooth device fitted?

A: About a year ago - why the hell would that matter?

Don't know what you all think - I think they haven't got a bloomin' clue - I am FURIOUS!

[bothwell_buyer]

Just had a call from the garage, they had 2 questions for me...

1. Have you the receipt from last time you put fuel in as they are wondering whether you put petrol in it by mistake

A: No I haven't it was near a month ago now, I always double check and this problem started at least a month ago and got worse and worse

2. When did you have your Parrott bluetooth device fitted?

A: About a year ago - why the hell would that matter?

Don't know what you all think - I think they haven't got a bloomin' clue - I am FURIOUS!

CLUTCHING AT STRAWS - tell em they'll get some mair frae the crib at the church!!

[chatman]

Just had a call from the garage, they had 2 questions for me...

1. Have you the receipt from last time you put fuel in as they are wondering whether you put petrol in it by mistake

A: No I haven't it was near a month ago now, I always double check and this problem started at least a month ago and got worse and worse

2. When did you have your Parrott bluetooth device fitted?

A: About a year ago - why the hell would that matter?

Don't know what you all think - I think they haven't got a bloomin' clue - I am FURIOUS!

Straws they are clutching at straws.... :unsure:

I would get back to them and post the questions we have said...As a Toyota Forum we have some say in our knowledge and experience....

The parrot car kit could inter fear with some of the wiring as mentioned before and maybe cause a short or cut out...and the ECU thinking it's something else..Possible...

Putting Petrol in a Diesel will cause more damage than this and I believe you've driven the car for a while before it went badly wrong....Also they could always remove the fuel filter and have a look at the fuel...this will tell them if there's petrol in there...

Is this also a Toyota garage or an independent...If the first then I would be furious as well...............

Sorry I cant be of more help...Know what it's like waiting for things to be diagnosed as to what it is...then having the bill to fix it....

[BELAIR]

Just had a call from the garage, they had 2 questions for me...

1. Have you the receipt from last time you put fuel in as they are wondering whether you put petrol in it by mistake

A: No I haven't it was near a month ago now, I always double check and this problem started at least a month ago and got worse and worse

2. When did you have your Parrott bluetooth device fitted?

A: About a year ago - why the hell would that matter?

Don't know what you all think - I think they haven't got a bloomin' clue - I am FURIOUS!

Straws they are clutching at straws.... :unsure:

I would get back to them and post the questions we have said...As a Toyota Forum we have some say in our knowledge and experience....

The parrot car kit could inter fear with some of the wiring as mentioned before and maybe cause a short or cut out...and the ECU thinking it's something else..Possible...

Putting Petrol in a Diesel will cause more damage than this and I believe you've driven the car for a while before it went badly wrong....Also they could always remove the fuel filter and have a look at the fuel...this will tell them if there's petrol in there...

Is this also a Toyota garage or an independent...If the first then I would be furious as well...............

Sorry I cant be of more help...Know what it's like waiting for things to be diagnosed as to what it is...then having the bill to fix it....

Yes I am going to get back to them with the questions that have been suggested :D

The parrot kit was fitted about a year ago anyhow!

I really started noticing this problem at least in October and it has got steadily worse so don't see how it could be wrong fuel - they said they just want as much info as possible... hmmm Also I always run it down to quite low before I re-fuel so I am sure that sort of concentration of petrol in a diesel would make it very poorly

This is a Toyota garage - I bought the car from them and my one before that, seems perhaps they are trying to shift blame, they had the car for over the 3 weeks now :(

In the meantime I am still enjoying the XTR, but not looking forward to giving it back in some ways Mine is still under warranty so at least there will be no bill!

[BELAIR]

For anyone following this thread - my poor Rav is still wit Toyota, at their technical centre......it now 4 months since I dropped it into the garage!!! un !Removed! believable

[Robert6920]

For anyone following this thread - my poor Rav is still wit Toyota, at their technical centre......it now 4 months since I dropped it into the garage!!! un bloody believable

Good heavens, you've been without the car so long that the last post was before Christmas and well before we got my better half's Rav4 - let alone mine!! This really has got to be some sort of record - they should make a tv series "Warranty from Hell" - well, they make tv series about anything these days. Seriously, it's completely unacceptable. What on earth are they saying to you - or have they given up calling??

[BELAIR]

For anyone following this thread - my poor Rav is still wit Toyota, at their technical centre......it now 4 months since I dropped it into the garage!!! un !Removed! believable

Good heavens, you've been without the car so long that the last post was before Christmas and well before we got my better half's Rav4 - let alone mine!! This really has got to be some sort of record - they should make a tv series "Warranty from Hell" - well, they make tv series about anything these days. Seriously, it's completely unacceptable. What on earth are they saying to you - or have they given up calling??

Well generally the updates go something like this...

' we have replaced X and X and X but unfortunately the fault is still apparent but we have pin-pointed the fault so we are going to try XY and hopefully I'll have some good news'...

next call...

' well we have replaced X and Y and Z and unfortunately fault is still apparent...' etc etc

Oh yes last week I had a call from the technician asking when is started etc etc they also have informed they have checked the fuel tank for contaminants and it is fine - which is interesting as they did the same about 2 months ago and it was fine then!!! So it seems we are going in circles. But they have been told now by myself to either replace the vehicle or produce some sort of solution as how long would or could this go on for!!!!

Good god, so very frustrating! You are right this must be a record