Rav Defroster

[shcm]

As it's car defrosting weather I thought I'd let you have a look at this.

This may well destroy any credibility I may or may not have.

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME UNLESS YOU ARE CONFIDENT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. YOU DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I normally don't have the room to garage the RAV and I hate defrosting the car in the winter. I dislike the action of scraping the screen, I'm not keen on kettles of water, de-icer makes it worse. For a long time I used to cover the screen, but even that is not perfect on some mornings. Letting the engine warm up to defrost the car is not a recommended practice. We don't have heated windscreens, I think that possibly Ford has the patent on that, which maybe one reason why it doesn't appear on too many makes.

A few years ago I rigged this up for the 4.2 and earlier this year I transferred it to the 4.3. It was the day after I got it, because it was going to snow the next day!

It's nothing new, Haynes even suggest doing it. See Here:

Click - Haynes Defrosting

So it must be OK then! ;)

So, it's not an uncommon practice then. What I'm doing is putting a fan heater inside the vehicle, but I wanted a bit of a neater installation.

When I first thought about it, I wondered about a 12V heater off a separate Battery with some kind of split charging arrangement. In the end I wondered whether the heater would have enough 'umph (that's a techy term ) and the arrangement below is quicker and simpler.

I'm not certain about the legality of this, the IET (IEE) have been mucking about with wiring regs recently, but it can't be any worse that putting a mains supply into a caravan for instance. I'm not a caravaner, so there may be more appropriate bits to use, but this is what I used:-

Outside the house is one of those waterproof mains sockets, see picture. The power to this socket is controlled inside the house through a RCD (FOR SAFETY) and an electronic mains timer switch. For the connection to the vehicle I used one of these waterproof connectors:

Click - Bulgin Connector

This one is rated at 10 Amps@250V, enough for the fan heater I have. It also has a cap, to protect the connector mounted on the car from wet and muck, when not in use.

Make sure all your cable, plugs and sockets are more than capable of supplying the fan heater current requirements and are rated for outside use. Make a long enough lead to with the vehicle socket on one end and a normal plug on the other. Always connect the vehicle first and put the mains plug into the socket last, so there is no chance it is live, when connecting it to the vehicle.

The vehicle end of the connector is mounted in the left hand hole made by one of the bungs in the lower boot area. (Thanks to Anchorman for the picture).

The photo shows:

1. The connector in place
   
2. The cap on the connector when not in use. It looks close to the exhaust in the picture, but isn't
   
3. The fan heater. Pity it doesn't match the interior
   
4. The mains connection in the lower boot area. Ignore the other wires, they are for future projects and expansion ;)
   

The heater gets left in the vehicle all year. I don't normally have 5 people up and with 4 up, the heater doesn't get in the way. It's quickly removed anyway. Of course if you've got kids, they may well drop food, sick and poo into the heater, so you might have to find another location, taking care not to block its vents or let it scorch anything. Surprisingly, it doesn't in this position, not even the seat.

None of these connectors are the cheapest of things, but I wanted a system where I could be driving off in a few seconds.

The timer in the house is set to turn on about 30 to 45 minutes before I leave. If frost is forecast, I connect the lead and turn the timer to auto the night before. Then in the morning, the vehicle is ready for me, when I walk outside to leave.

Advantages

• It's safer than many of the "hole in the ice" people I see driving about that are struggling to see. Safety comes first
  
• The vehicle is warm inside, with all the windows clear. I turn off the supply (if it's not turned itself off already), whip off the lead and drive away
  
• It's probably more environmentally friendly that running the engine for 5-10 minutes.
  

Disadvantages

• You have to remember to disconnect the lead! (I haven't forgotten yet)
  
• You have to reach under the vehicle to disconnect the lead
  
• You have to pay for the electricity used (it's not every day, it doesn't seem to make a big difference to the bill)
  
• I will have the environmentalist beating me up saying it is a waste of energy heating the street (and driving an allegedly gas guzzling 5 door 4x4)
  
• These components and heater are not meant for auto use (temperature, vibration etc). You need to keep a close eye on them, particularly the incoming mains and for moisture, leaks etc, but I haven't had a problem yet.
  
• You are not supposed to leave fan heaters unattended
  
• I don't know the insurance implications if it burst into flames (I don't expect it to)
  

Possible Improvements

• Some kind of thermostat
  

So am I completely off my trolley? Was there a simpler, cheaper solution? or just too much effort?

Cheers

[chatman]

OMG...........You are the Wizard.....Love to see that........

Brilliant idea........I would proberly leave it plugged in the drive off pulling the wall with me :wacko:

I've seen some ideas but shcm we bow to your spendid ideas and chuckle to our self in it's simplicity and exercution................. :toast:

[T600]

Good work.

Though some days I have to park on the opposite side of the road; will the electric cable be OK running across the road?

[druand]

My easy way out this morning, cars all iced up (front back and sides)

Left RAV and CRV in driveway jumped into 3k's worth of 53 reg fiesta lx, started engine switched on FRONT and rear heated screens, air con and recirc. Bingo 2 minutes later on my way.

Ford do hold patent or whatever for "quickclear screen" hence it is only found on Ford, Volvo, Jag and L/rover. The other manufacturers who had a type of heated front screen a few years ago (vauxhall i think) did not pass "type approval" tests for later EU spec. Not 100% sure on this but on the right track.

[chatman]

My easy way out this morning, cars all iced up (front back and sides)

Left RAV and CRV in driveway jumped into 3k's worth of 53 reg fiesta lx, started engine switched on FRONT and rear heated screens, air con and recirc. Bingo 2 minutes later on my way.

Ford do hold patent or whatever for "quickclear screen" hence it is only found on Ford, Volvo, Jag and L/rover. The other manufacturers who had a type of heated front screen a few years ago (vauxhall i think) did not pass "type approval" tests for later EU spec. Not 100% sure on this but on the right track.

LR have heated rear screen to help keep the RAC/AA man's hands warm whilst pushing it.. .Front screen for Owner to rest head on and keep warm when crying :crybaby: :ffs:

(sorry couldn't resist it :lol: )

Also was that a swear word intermingled there Child Refuse Vehicle :o :o

[bothwell_buyer]

A nice wee bit of work put in there.....

When I was stripping out the RAV last winter, I used a fan heater placed in the front footwell to ensure complete dryness when i was painting surfaces and cutting and placing new underlay and carpets.

I carried on the practice, with a lower wattage heater once the car had been done and to keep the windows etc clear. Now its turbo'd, I don't use the heater.

The things that need to be considered are

the residual heat if you are leaving the heater within passenger reach (ie they burn themselves by touching it)

someone stealing the car from the driveway and then being electrocuted - you're at fault

the heater melting or setting fire to the fabric within the car (I don't think car interiors yet succumb to any sort of fire regulation)

The possibility of something (pen) dropping into the heater elements which could overload the elements without necessarily tripping the circuit protection as a short across some of the elements won't trip the RCD..and that many heaters are now double protected and unsuitable for any sort of outside use or use in damp conditions

I'd maybe put the heater into the boot space, assuming thats open and use it there mounted on a bit of masterboard or similar fireproof material. OR

You could always stick some trace heater cable on the windscreen but it tends to be a bit bulky - how about fairy lights??

In a different avenue would be using 12volt 50watt lamps as the heat source thereby avoiding the mains voltage; using a trailer style socket at the back of the RAV to be more accessible and then wire up a similar outlet which is connected to an adequate transformer. You can leave it on for longer and if you work out the electric useage using the formulae, then it wouldn't be any costlier. These lamps provide a reasonable heat (and you could always sink them into the dashboard, shining up onto the windscreen for faster action)...

For the caravan we have - a 5' high propane bottle and an industrial space heater plugged into 240volts, which then goes back to normally the mains via RCDs and MCBs. If the diesel generator is running (which is stationary within the caravan, then the exhaust fumes heat the caravan) and the 5000watt halides lamps give off a good heat too. Course there are warning signs all around the caravan.

The minibus uses propane so we just set light to the overflow valve...

So there we are - the problems of owning a 5 door RAV ! Larger air mass to heat. Wi ma turbo RAV and proper thermostats built in, the engine warms very quickly and I don't need to go through all of that carry on... :toast: :yahoo:

[bothwell_buyer]

Good work.

Though some days I have to park on the opposite side of the road; will the electric cable be OK running across the road?

Only if you suspend it at least 1metre off the ground in case someone runs over it...

[Fujisan]

Well done shcm

Think I'll stick with my old scraper, at the time of the morning I get up, still half asleep , I'm going to drive off with it still hooked up for sure, dragging half the house behind me.

[jonbr]

I just got back from Lapland (Finland part) :D

They all have cables that plug into the front of their cars that keep the enging and heating system warm. The car does not freeze up and the engine is ready to run as soon as you get in. Their car parks all have sockets mounted on posts for every space so any one can plug into them.

If only that could happen here!

[chatman]

I just got back from Lapland (Finland part) :D

They all have cables that plug into the front of their cars that keep the enging and heating system warm. The car does not freeze up and the engine is ready to run as soon as you get in. Their car parks all have sockets mounted on posts for every space so any one can plug into them.

If only that could happen here!

:lol: Next there be saying "We grit the roads in the UK" :P :P

[jonbr]

:lol: Next there be saying "We grit the roads in the UK" :P :P

Not in Bracknell they don't, the council are in debt and so don't grit at all now! I'm so glad I've got a 4x4 to keep me safe on the icy Bracknell roads.

So it's Bracknell councils fault I have a gas guzzler

[shcm]

I just got back from Lapland (Finland part) :D

They all have cables that plug into the front of their cars that keep the enging and heating system warm. The car does not freeze up and the engine is ready to run as soon as you get in. Their car parks all have sockets mounted on posts for every space so any one can plug into them.

If only that could happen here!

Knew about sump heaters, didn't know it kept the inside warm as well. Nice! :D

Lapland eh? . Not one of the big man in the red suit's helpers are you? :D (apologies, I try to jest!).

Does Santa Drive a RAV?

[bothwell_buyer]

I just got back from Lapland (Finland part) :D

They all have cables that plug into the front of their cars that keep the enging and heating system warm. The car does not freeze up and the engine is ready to run as soon as you get in. Their car parks all have sockets mounted on posts for every space so any one can plug into them.

If only that could happen here!

Knew about sump heaters, didn't know it kept the inside warm as well. Nice! :D

Lapland eh? . Not one of the big man in the red suit's helpers are you? :D (apologies, I try to jest!).

Does Santa Drive a RAV?

If he does, and he's sensible, it won't be a bldng 5 door...!

[chatman]

Does Santa Drive a RAV?

Hang on Anchorman has a RED RAV and we cant see his face.....Likes to change clothes .......Could it be ??????????????

Of course it would have to be a 5 door RAV and a Diesel (just for Bothy that bit, just baiting)

[jonbr]

Lapland eh? . Not one of the big man in the red suit's helpers are you? :D (apologies, I try to jest!).

Not personally no, but they had some very nice female helpers around :D

Does Santa Drive a RAV?

He should do, his four footed 4x1 wasn't coping very well on the ice :o

[shcm]

If he does, and he's sensible, it won't be a bldng 5 door...!

What's with all this prolonged 5 door nonsense anyway? Our doors go up to 6. With a hoist and a bit of grease I can probably get in via the sunroof. That makes it a door.

Or, maybe you are looking to form a 3 door splinter group?

Or maybe, deep down, you are just a teeny-weeny bit envious of our extra doors? It's not a problem and nothing to be embarrassed about. Help is at hand. I'm sure we could get the lads together and cut you a couple of extra door holes in no time! :D

Cheers

[shcm]

Hang on Anchorman has a RED RAV and we cant see his face.....Likes to change clothes .......Could it be ??????????????

ho, ho, ho, maybe he's got a surprise for us. :D

[gar]

A nice wee bit of work put in there.....

When I was stripping out the RAV last winter, I used a fan heater placed in the front footwell to ensure complete dryness when i was painting surfaces and cutting and placing new underlay and carpets.

I carried on the practice, with a lower wattage heater once the car had been done and to keep the windows etc clear. Now its turbo'd, I don't use the heater.

The things that need to be considered are

the residual heat if you are leaving the heater within passenger reach (ie they burn themselves by touching it)

someone stealing the car from the driveway and then being electrocuted - you're at fault

the heater melting or setting fire to the fabric within the car (I don't think car interiors yet succumb to any sort of fire regulation)

The possibility of something (pen) dropping into the heater elements which could overload the elements without necessarily tripping the circuit protection as a short across some of the elements won't trip the RCD..and that many heaters are now double protected and unsuitable for any sort of outside use or use in damp conditions

I'd maybe put the heater into the boot space, assuming thats open and use it there mounted on a bit of masterboard or similar fireproof material. OR

You could always stick some trace heater cable on the windscreen but it tends to be a bit bulky - how about fairy lights??

In a different avenue would be using 12volt 50watt lamps as the heat source thereby avoiding the mains voltage; using a trailer style socket at the back of the RAV to be more accessible and then wire up a similar outlet which is connected to an adequate transformer. You can leave it on for longer and if you work out the electric useage using the formulae, then it wouldn't be any costlier. These lamps provide a reasonable heat (and you could always sink them into the dashboard, shining up onto the windscreen for faster action)...

For the caravan we have - a 5' high propane bottle and an industrial space heater plugged into 240volts, which then goes back to normally the mains via RCDs and MCBs. If the diesel generator is running (which is stationary within the caravan, then the exhaust fumes heat the caravan) and the 5000watt halides lamps give off a good heat too. Course there are warning signs all around the caravan.

The minibus uses propane so we just set light to the overflow valve...

So there we are - the problems of owning a 5 door RAV ! Larger air mass to heat. Wi ma turbo RAV and proper thermostats built in, the engine warms very quickly and I don't need to go through all of that carry on... :toast: :yahoo:

Good idea but if it is only the front screen you want to keep clear, may I suggest a heat mat, like the ones found in reptile/pet shops? They are nice and warm and a lot safer to use. Just use one instead of the heater and place it up against the windscreen or on the dash. :D

[shcm]

To be honest, if it is just the windscreen, for certain territories, I've seen Toyota installation instructions for a windscreen de-icer. Obviously not intended for our relatively mild climate. It's a strip along bottom and one side, not like the "quick-clear" mesh system.

As a sparky I'd use a C/W figure to tell me what power to put in to give me a certain temperature rise (or more usually what temperature rise I am going to get from a certain power dissipation). This is probably more complex to model (heat flux?), but, (I'm stating the *****ing obvious ) , if you heater doesn't chuck out enough power, depending on the external temperature, you won't melt the ice.

[anchorman]

Well!

shcm I can't make my mind up whether to address you as Inspector Gadget or Professor Pat Pending!

I think the idea in principle is very good and probably cheaper in running the engine to warm up which is invariably what I do (but at about 1500 rpm - not idle).

Here are my buts! I don't know if I like the fan so close to the seat material, I think I would prefer a slimline model under the seat but exhausting away from the cussion. Also I think it would be prudent to have a "pull away" connector just in case you do forget one day.

Going back to the screen heater, the new Daihatsu Terios has one and unlike the Fords you cannot see the elements. It has what is called a thin film element which is sandwiched between the two sheets of glass in the laminated screen and consists of a layer of conductive material so thin that you can see through it. Its a superb feature and frustrating that the RAVs little brother has it and we don't.

What the 4.3 does have for some markets is a screen heater which operates in the area under the wipers - a kind of compromise. I wonder if it could be ordered here and fitted as an accessory?;

Again for other markets there is a combustion heater. This is a thermostatically operated fuel burning heater;

It will heat the interior and the engine. However, these are commonly fitted to trucks with sleeper cabs and are available for cars with remote control and timers so it can be warmed up and defrosted when you go out to it in the morning;

http://www.eberspacher.com/car.php?section=automotive

They are not as cheap as yours but can be picked up on ebay;

http://search.ebay.co.uk/eberspacher_W0QQfclZ1

[Uncle Bob]

shcm i feel what you've done is a great idea, the top priority is safety and seeing out of the windows is top of the list over environmental issues.

The other more expensive options are ...

1) Kenlowe Hotstart..

http://www.kenlowe.com/pre-heaters/cars/whatwill.html

2) Eberspacher heater.

http://www.eberspacher.com/airheating.php?section=airheating

We have a Eberspacher AIRTRONIC D2 fitted in our window van but i would think you would find no room in a RAV4 to fit it as its more van and truck applicable.

Although their water heating unit could well work.....

http://www.eberspacher.com/waterheating.ph...on=waterheating

[shcm]

Here are my buts! I don't know if I like the fan so close to the seat material, I think I would prefer a slimline model under the seat but exhausting away from the cussion. Also I think it would be prudent to have a "pull away" connector just in case you do forget one day.

I understand where you are coming from and was in two minds whether to actually post this. I've done a fair bit of testing. The fan case remains very cool, and you get virtually no heat blown onto the seat. Of course, that is probably not the case with every heater of this type and if the thing developed a fault, who knows, molten case etc.

As I've said, I do keep a close eye on it, maybe one day I will regret using it. Hence the warnings given. With enough time it should be relatively easy to come up with a better solution.

Cheers

[shcm]

shcm i feel what you've done is a great idea, the top priority is safety and seeing out of the windows is top of the list over environmental issues.

The other more expensive options are ...

1) Kenlowe Hotstart..

http://www.kenlowe.com/pre-heaters/cars/whatwill.html

2) Eberspacher heater.

http://www.eberspacher.com/airheating.php?section=airheating

We have a Eberspacher AIRTRONIC D2 fitted in our window van but i would think you would find no room in a RAV4 to fit it as its more van and truck applicable.

Although their water heating unit could well work.....

http://www.eberspacher.com/waterheating.ph...on=waterheating

Thanks for The Info Bob. Definitely professional jobs those, rather than my "Heath-Robinson" approach. I will have a study of those!

[Parts-King]

I don't think car interiors yet succumb to any sort of fire regulation

Oh yes they do :D:

PS I find a napalm flame thrower does the trick, it would be perfect apart from the whooshing noise it makes and the tendancy to scorch the paintwork and frighten cats!

Kingo

[shcm]

PS I find a napalm flame thrower does the trick, it would be perfect apart from the whooshing noise it makes and the tendancy to scorch the paintwork and frighten cats!

I bet it makes great toast (or caramel?) too :D