Starting Problems - Confused !

[Shuggie]

Hi Guys.

After many years of trouble free motoring, my 94 Celica GT (ST202) has now developed an intermittant starting problem.

The crux of the issue is the starter motor does not do anything... ie the starter mototr itself does not spin, click, engage or anything - dead. I can click the key over several times and then suddenly the starter fires and the engine happily blossoms into life. (the Engine itself is perfect). The Battery is test OK too and there is no "drain" when you try start.

After speaking to a Toyota mechanic, he said it sounds like the starter. I spoke to the installers of my Alarm (TOAD 606) and they said it sounds like the starter. I spoke to my local garage who normally services the car and after many attempts to replicate the "non-start" they concluded it was the starter too. So off I toddle and bought a Fully recon starter and they bang it in. Guess what - EXACTLY the same issue.

Basically to me it sounds like an electrical issue and that amps/voltage simply isnt getting to the starter motor in the first instance. Could this be? if so what else could it then be? Relay switch? Ignition key/barrel? loose wire somewhere?

Confused... Please help.

Thanks very much.

Shaun

[T600]

So just to confirm, no loud click when you turn the key?

Whatever state the starter circuit, the starter itself, or the solenoid (big relay switch that turns on the power to the starter) I'd expect the solenoid to click.

Therefore sounds like the problem is in your ignition switch, or else the wiring from the switch to the solenoid.

I wouldn't normally advocate them for road cars because they're the work of the Chav, but have you considered wiring in a Start button. If you did that and it solved the problem it would prove that it was originally due to the ignition switch, and a Start Button only costs a few quid on the bay of E I would think.

[EDIT]PS; this happens if you turn the key within 30 seconds or so of disarming the car? I ask because someone had a similar problem and they hadn't realised that the TOADs disable the starter circuit if you don't start the car fairly quickly after disarming[/EDIT]

[Shuggie]

Thanks for your rapid response!

"So just to confirm, no loud click when you turn the key?"

There is no big click to be heard. You can however hear the injection systems etc coming on (like a humming sound).

"Whatever state the starter circuit, the starter itself, or the solenoid (big relay switch that turns on the power to the starter) I'd expect the solenoid to click."

Is the solenoid not built into the starter motor itself (piggy backed).

"Therefore sounds like the problem is in your ignition switch, or else the wiring from the switch to the solenoid."

That is my instinct on this too. Can get an ignition switch and starter relay for £50 delivered from a breaker.

"I wouldn't normally advocate them for road cars because they're the work of the Chav, but have you considered wiring in a Start button. If you did that and it solved the problem it would prove that it was originally due to the ignition switch, and a Start Button only costs a few quid on the bay of E I would think."

This did pass through my mind funnily enough, may investigate this option - thanks for the tip.

"PS; this happens if you turn the key within 30 seconds or so of disarming the car? I ask because someone had a similar problem and they hadn't realised that the TOADs disable the starter circuit if you don't start the car fairly quickly after disarming"

Definatly not this rearming. Can unlock and try imediately and no joy. Thanks though - wish it was this one !

[T600]

Hi, yes, I wondered whether the solenoid might be built into the starter; they often are these days.

I think the principle still applies that a signal feed to the starter results in a clicking sound when the solenoid fires. Fitting new starter should therefore have eliminated any problems in that area, so almost has to be the signal feed from the switch.

Putting a new starter on hasn't been a waste though; it was almost certain to pack up at some point if it was the original one.

[Ant-Val]

If you have anything that can test 12v, even a lightbulb on 2 wires or something, I found that when I disconnected the fat red cable (usually 4ga) from the starter, and tested the voltage between the wire & ground it should be the full Battery voltage as it comes directly from the Battery. For me this cable somehow developed a break in it somewhere inside the insulation due to vibration, and even though it looked perfect, it would only make contact on occasion when the wire was flexed. I replaced it with a standard TRUCK Battery cable (bigger) for power efficiency to the starter and it only cost $8 or so... That was my deal with intermittent starting in my Celica. Try hooking up a 12v light-bulb to the end of the wire & ground (metal nearby) and flex the wire all over. If the light blinks, there is a break in the wire causing a "no contact" section when it's flexed. It may sound like a lot, but it's only one wire connection to undo, and if it is the wire then problem solved.

[Shuggie]

Hi All,

Update on this one.

Firstly, thanks for all the responses. Appreciated.

After doing the following:

• replacing starter motor - £120 (recondition + fit)
  Imobiliser techie disconnected imobiliser
  Testing still had issue - Imobiliser not the cause
  Imobiliser reconnected
  Auto Sparky called in and tested various components/circuits
  4th one tested was the Starter Motor Relay
  BINGO ! Root cause found
  £160 (parts + Labour)
  Total cost £280 to replace the relay which was my gut instinct in the first place.
  

A few nights ago I had a kind of CSI dream about this car - the images in my head were stylised sparks flowing from the ignition barrel down the wiring to through the "black box" imobiliser, out to the relay switch and then nothing...dead... try start again and the same thing... nothing. Try once more and when it got to the relay the spark somehow bridged and the starter fired into action. Voila ! OK... its sad I know, but my mind wouldn't rest !

Anyway, Hopefully that's it done and dusted and I can get back to trouble free motoring.

Thanks again

Shaun

PS Ant-Val:

I did try something similar to what you suggest, but just used an additional big cable to bridge the Battery and starter - no success which is no suprise now knowing that the relay was the fault. - Thanks

[CarinaII]

Interesting. My '90 carina has an identical problem, although it doesnt raise itself often. I just simply have a jumper wire permantly attatched to the starter solenoid feed and dab it on the Battery. Not ideal, but always gets it going. However, i'll replace this relay as the symptoms are identical.

[Shuggie]

Hi CarinaII

The extent of intermittance of "failed starts" on my car could be seperated by 40 good starts which made it very difficult diagnose in the first place. Other times it was the other way around with 40 fails seperating 1 good start !!!

By sounds of it your crude wire is doing exaclty what the Relay should do but with you sitting in the comfort of the drivers seat and not scrabbling around the engine bay... ;o)

I am sure you know this, but for anyone else who doesn't, the Relay is located in one of the fuse boxes probably near the Battery. It is a cuboid of about 2cm with 4 pins. Simply pull it out like a fuse and plug in a new one. Job done.

I hope this resolves your issue too. It would make me feel better for having spent all that cash ! ;o)

Regards

Shaun

[jon8oy]

Hi Guys.

After many years of trouble free motoring, my 94 Celica GT (ST202) has now developed an intermittant starting problem.

The crux of the issue is the starter motor does not do anything... ie the starter mototr itself does not spin, click, engage or anything - dead. I can click the key over several times and then suddenly the starter fires and the engine happily blossoms into life. (the Engine itself is perfect). The Battery is test OK too and there is no "drain" when you try start.

After speaking to a Toyota mechanic, he said it sounds like the starter. I spoke to the installers of my Alarm (TOAD 606) and they said it sounds like the starter. I spoke to my local garage who normally services the car and after many attempts to replicate the "non-start" they concluded it was the starter too. So off I toddle and bought a Fully recon starter and they bang it in. Guess what - EXACTLY the same issue.

Basically to me it sounds like an electrical issue and that amps/voltage simply isnt getting to the starter motor in the first instance. Could this be? if so what else could it then be? Relay switch? Ignition key/barrel? loose wire somewhere?

Confused... Please help.

Thanks very much.

Shaun

[jon8oy]

Hi Guys.

After many years of trouble free motoring, my 94 Celica GT (ST202) has now developed an intermittant starting problem.

The crux of the issue is the starter motor does not do anything... ie the starter mototr itself does not spin, click, engage or anything - dead. I can click the key over several times and then suddenly the starter fires and the engine happily blossoms into life. (the Engine itself is perfect). The Battery is test OK too and there is no "drain" when you try start.

After speaking to a Toyota mechanic, he said it sounds like the starter. I spoke to the installers of my Alarm (TOAD 606) and they said it sounds like the starter. I spoke to my local garage who normally services the car and after many attempts to replicate the "non-start" they concluded it was the starter too. So off I toddle and bought a Fully recon starter and they bang it in. Guess what - EXACTLY the same issue.

Basically to me it sounds like an electrical issue and that amps/voltage simply isnt getting to the starter motor in the first instance. Could this be? if so what else could it then be? Relay switch? Ignition key/barrel? loose wire somewhere?

Confused... Please help.

Thanks very much.

Shaun

Hiya ive had that problem with my avensis toyota said the starter so i went out an pushed in the key an whilst turning it push in really hard if this works with yours its the ignition wiring at bottom of the barrel

[Spaceboy]

Really helpful post. Ive had this exact issue for several months on my st205 where it wouldnt start sometimes. Replaced the starter motor and had the same issue. Replacing the purple starter motor relay under the bonnet was the solution. £10 from eBay.