Lpg Conversions

[sabrina72]

Hi everyone

I'm thinking of buying a RAV4 and wondered if anyone has an LPG conversion and if so is it worth the money. Any information about the car appreciated

:)

[anchorman]

Hi Sabrina

Welcome to the club.

Bothy is a good LPG man. He fuels his cars and drinks the stuff as well. I'm sure he will respond to you but he will need more info on which car you have.

Regards

[bothwell_buyer]

Hello there ma china.....

LPG?

I assume the car you have/have in mind does not have LPG?

Yep - I could do with an idea of the age of car/what engine it has; and what mileage you expect to do.

I have had 2 LPG vehicles - a Jaguar I sold as I had no end of problems with it.

And a renault Trafic minibus which uses the Espace petrol engine.

The government have withdrawn the £1600 subsidy to fit it, so if it needs fitted you need to do a substantial mileage to recoup the cost.

The cost of LPG seems genrally to be half of the petrol price - in my area prices vary from 45p a litre to 52p a litre. A petrol engine properly set up with LPG will run just as well as petrol generally. I found that you don't quite get the same mpg - it tends to be slightly lower. Depending on where you live, getting LPG can be a pain....I'm not too bad living on the outskirts of Glasgow. I have done runs down the M74-M6-M5 and you have to plan where you will get the gas. Not a problem as there is a website and maps.

Next thing is that LPG needs a tank. These come in various shapes and tastes.....basically you can get a doughnut shaped one which can fit in a spare wheel well (that the RAV doesn't have) or get a cylindrical tank which would need to fit in the rear. You can get tanks which fit behind and under the sills but again it depends what model you want, and theres not a lot of spare room under a RAV floorpan.

Aside of the tank, a filler connection will be fitted - no problems there. The engine will have another ECU fitted to govern the engine when its on gas (for example to ensure it doesn't get fed petrol AND gas at the same time! Most systems start the engine on petrol and then switch over to gas when the engine either heats up or gets to 1500rpm. More recent management systems are far more reliable than the apology I had in the Jaguar.

However, IF something goes wrong, you'll find that a LPG fitter/garage will look at the gas side, but the dealer or normal garage will only look at the petrol side. It can be a pain if something goes wrong.....Renault dealers refuse to allow my gas bus anywhere near their workshops!!!

In the longer term, altho the government have maintained the reduction in tax on the gas; there is no certainty that this will last. there is a body of thought that says LPG is no cleaner than good petrol or diesel engines and so there is no eco advantage any longer....so they might add the tax on to make LPG same price as petrol. Its a gamble which I wouldn't Shell out the best part of £2000 to have fitted unless you are doing thousands of miles a year in it.

You may find an LPG RAV4 for sale - I haven't seen one but am sure they will be some around.

So - there's a general overview - come back to me with info on mileage / type of car you are thinkingof.

Diesels can also be converted to run on LPG, but they only use a small percentage of LPG as a mix in the diesel, and so i don't see much gain there.

There are many types of car with LPG fitted...if you go for one of them, make sure you have the service history, and check that a garage will maintain it for you,

best wishes from the north

ps - I'm going to be in cardiff on saturday morning as it happens to pick up a landrover!!!

[sabrina72]

Thank you Anchorman

Bothwell

Thank you for such a comprehensive answer! It's saved me a good few hours of research on the net. I was looking to buy a RAV4 (possibly a XT4) but not too keen on paying so much for petrol. I do quite a bit of driving and want something that will be reliable and economical but as a 4x4 I know that it'll cost a bit to run hence the possible conversion to LPG.

I didn't realise that it was so complicated! Thanks for the information tho.

If you can let me know how economical the car is that could be the deciding factor and I may end up owning one very soon.

It's a wee way to come for a car init ......... all the way to Cardiff, best place to come tho. Have a safe journey, hope the car is worth it!

thanks again for the info

Sabrina :D

[anchorman]

Sabrina

It pains me to admit it but he's good in'ee.

However, after coming out with such a credible account on LPG conversions he goes and spoils it by saying he would go farhter than the garden gate for one of those agricultural nightmares.

Bizaar. I blame jack Daniels.

[Parts-King]

I like the idea of halfing my departments fuel bill by running on gas, however, just be warned, Toyota will not entertain warranty issues on engines fitted with LPG conversions (should a serious problem occur directly related to the gas conversion), fine if you have an older vehicle but something to be aware of if you are thinking of a newer car.

Kingo

[anchorman]

Thats interesting kingo.

It surprises me when companies like Vauxhall offer them. Why do Toyota have that view, do you know?

[bothwell_buyer]

Aha...so we have the policy from Toyota on LPG - they won't touch it either.

If you want to go down the route of LPG, speak to a garage authorised to fit LPG systems - they have to fit them to a standard and provide you with a certifcate of compliance/quality/safety. The tank and the pipes have solenoid operated valves to cut off the gas at the right times; and there is a pressure safety valve on the tank which releases excess gas from the tank into the atmosphere rather than into the car - as a precaution really.

I should have said that tanks only hold 80% of their capacity - ie a 100litre tank will hold a maximum of 80 litres - again to allow for expansion of the gas and avoid undue pressures. This happens automatically - you can't overfill the tank as the pump won't let you.

Filling the tank at a petrol station is easy - a different pump and nozzle ensure you can't pour diesel in by mistake!!! Of course, you would probably still have the petrol tank....but there may be systems now where the petrol tank can be removed and you just use LPG....the engine intake system normally needs to be not freezing so as the gas doesn't do whatever it not meant to (I'm not a chemist! and I can't remember my gases stuff from uni!!)

Lets take the Renault Espace engine - aye ...noo theres an engine! The 2.2litre renault engine runs slightly hotter on LPG. As long as the cooling system is working, then theres no problem. And I've heard it said that LPG tends to let the engine run dry and its a good idea to run it on petrol sometimes. The latter comment???? Well I always run the Renault on gas cos it runs better on gas! The reasoning is that LPG might not have the additives that petrol has, to prevent wear etc on the engine...I think thats really not 100% true. The same has been said about supermarket petrol v main stream petrol companies petrol!!

Coming back to the toyota engine then, T might be concerned that

1. they know nothing about LPG

2. they may be concerned about dodgy LPG fitters doing a botch job which does something to the engine (the days of the LPG fitters working in darkness have gone)

3. Maybe the dealers insurance won't cover them for LPG maintenance

Repeat again - find a local LPG installer and ask their advice - if they are any good they will know which engines may have problems - its pretty common knowledge that the Espace engine 2.2 can have overheating problems.

General point on pushing gas thru petol engines = nutters like me also feed nitrous thru to enhance performance (of the car - not me). Equally, Mr T would have a fit if I took my RAV into them - ye see its non-standard and non-standard things don't get a mention in the workshop manual (no offense to any fitters intended - its a general point), partly cos they won't have standard workshop book times etc

Another thing - LPG actually weighs something so you won't float away!

MPG?? I'd say that you will get between 2 - 5 miles less from propane. On motorway driving, I think the effect is less.

Lastly something which I personally do not do...but have heard of others doing it - propane gas has duty applied to it. However, propane supplied for heating, say a house in the country, does not have duty applied. So instead of paying 50p a litre, some people are buying it at 5p a litre then using an appropriate pump to decant the gas from the large tank in the garden to the vehicle tank. Undoubtedly illegal, and highly dangerous if not plumbed properly but this is in effect what happens at a garage.....you can see the stuff being sold on eba* The difference is that red dye cannot be added to gas!! Shock horror....never done that in my life etc. Thought about it but! You could have your very own gas station in your garden!!

There is no real difference to fitting LPG to a new car or an old car - just be aware of the warranty issues. Again ask the LPG installers.

As for the Cardiff jaunt - flying down and then preparing for a long drive north after checking breakdown insurance tomorrow. Taking hats and gloves etc as well. Thankfully the forecast for Sunday is fairly mild...had it been today, I could have stuck a sail on it and got blown up the motorways!! Unfortunately, the RAV will not happily pull wur 2 ton caravan, and despite lots of power and 4 wheel drive, does not have the weight to pull the thing over wet grass....and I refuse to buy a 5 door RAV as everybody will laugh!

What mpg does a XT4 do - dunno - is it on their website???