D4d Engine Fault

[AdrianHartopp]

There isn't a wastegate so I don't know what they will do!

Don't understand this? Both Toyota and the Turbo Centre have said that the turbo unit has a waste gate, Toyota saying that it is this that has failed. Turbo Centre have said that it's a very common problem and have dealt with a great many of them.

Could you explain your response in a little more depth please.

[anchorman]

I can.

This referring to the wastegate on a RAV is not uncommon but in fact the RAV doesn't have a wastegate. Normally a wastegate is a device which allows overboost pressure to atmosphere - this the dispicable grunt you get from Subaru's etc as they change gear. A wastegate is often controlled by a vacuum unit but on the RAV the vacuum unit is used to control the variable nozzles which control the output of the turbo. Take a look at the last 2 pages of the attached which is actually from the 4.3 which is the best description I can find.

Turbo_4.3.pdf

However, although the term "wastegate" is a misnomer, I have found Toyota manuals that refer to it as such so I presume it is this they are talking about. Sorry to have caused you any concern.

[AdrianHartopp]

Anchorman,

Many thanks for a great detailed reply, and for the extra PDF info, it's very much appreciated and helps enormously.

[anchorman]

I was in a big rush to go to work but in this pdf you can see the components that control turbo pressure on your 4.2;

vsv_layout.pdf

So what happens is that the pressure sensor determins the boost pressure and then signals the VSV (vacuum sensing valve) to allow the corrrect amount of vacuum to act on the diapragm and in turn works those viens in the variable nozzle. Here's another pdf from the 4.3 that explains the similar set up (in this case called a VRV and controlled by the engine management ECU instead of the pressure sensor);

vsv_operation.pdf

Hopefully together these will give you a good understanding of how turbo pressure is controlled and it certainly isn't by a conventional wastegate;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Incidentally, these VSVs are popping up as potential trouble causers just lately and as they fail to control the nozzles properly have given very similar symptoms as faulty SCVs (horrendous flat spots/loss of power). They would be very cheap to replace in comparison to a turbo.

[AdrianHartopp]

Many thanks for this extra information Anchorman, it's helped an awful lot.

Turbo Centre have just called and my turbo is now rebuilt. They did use the term "Waste Gate" to start with, but then went into more detail and corrected themselves by quoting VSV's etc.

I should hopefully have the car back on Monday, but we'll see.

Anyhow, thanks for all the info given, it's been incredibly helpful in trying to understand what exactly is wrong.

[stewyinpagham]

Regarding seizing linkages. We used to have this "dealer opportunity" a.k.a. warranty issue at Volvo-Penta on the D3 engine. (This is stolen from the 'D5 car, confusing isn't it.) A service bulletin was rushed out to us poor dealers so that "during service" or more likely investigating poor performance, we were to manipulate and lubricate the linkage. This in most installations meant feeding the apprentice into a very small gap with a can of spray copper-lube and vaguely aiming at the turbo..

A.M. may know if Mr T has raised the same bulletin??.

[anchorman]

I'll have a trawl but I don't think so.

You did get the apprentice's back didn't you???

[tilleytoo]

*"!*&^$%%$£*!*£^%&^$**! !

Humph. Having thought all was well with the car with the new SCVs, it did it's thing on the motorway again this morning. Luckily, the roadworks that have been there for months were finished yesterday, so I did at least have a piece of hard shoulder to pull onto.

There was no warning, no stutter or anything, the light light came on and that was it - no power. I had just got on to the motorway and had immediately overtaken something.

So do I now need to read up on VSVs?

[anchorman]

Send Adrian a pm to see how he got on.

[a_bigeni]

Hi there,

been experiencing the same problem for more than a year now. the funny thing is that after i replace a part the car goes well for a couple of weeks then it gets back to its thing.

last week i tried to switch the pipes on the VSV - it drove well for a week until yesterday. could that mean something??

another mechanic suggested that it could be the fuel pump but i'm not so sure.

now i'm looking for a second hand engine to take replacement parts one by one.

this problem seems very common among d4d's perhaps we could contact toyota in a group rather than single handedly i don't really know

[AdrianHartopp]

***UPDATE TIME*** (also posted on MPV Forum)

I have my car back. WOO HOOOOOOO!!!!!

Picked it up last night from the dealer and had a good chat with the Service Manager who was handling the work for me. He said he was very impressed with Turbo Centre UK and will definitely be keeping their details for further use. Said the guys knew exactly what they were talking about and he was happy to deal with them.

Had to have a play with the car on the way back from the dealer and I now have proper turbo boost. Drives very smoothly and doesn't stutter at all.

So far, I'm more than satisfied with the repair and, although it is VERY early days, it would appear to have cured the problem, however time will tell and I'll update again in a couple of weeks or so.

Total costs were £249 from Turbo Centre UK (repair, shipping and VAT) and £574 from Toyota (removing and replacing turbo and supplying and fitting seals and gaskets), £823 all together. A lot less than the original £1650 that I was first quoted!!!!!

[tilleytoo]

Rav's been back in to the garage this morning and is showing fault code 34(2) turbocharger system malfunction. Again.

They think this time they ought to take out the turbo and send it to Turbo Technics. I asked if it was the VSVs and got an "er, um, it's the valves in the turbo, Toyota don't do the work, we send it away." They think it will be about £700 altogether.

They said they've had two cars with this in the last 6 months, one was sorted with new SCVs, one with the turbo being sent away. Of course, they might not have 'sorted' it at all, the owners may have gone elsewhere!

So, do I go for this option or am I going to start wasting lots of money?

[anchorman]

Can you geta VSV from a scrapper then go for the dear stuff if that doesn't work?

[tilleytoo]

I've just had an interesting phone call fom the garage...

A few weeks ago I had a letter saying that Bristol Street Motors Mazda and Fiat had taken over Toyota. Toyota in Gloucester disappeared last year and there was nowhere else within a reasonable distance to take it, so I was pleased that they were back in Cheltenham. That's where I took it for the SCVs.

After I found that the SCVs hadn't dealt with the problem, I emailed Toyota customer relations to ask if they had a definite fix. I hadn't heard back from them. This morning my husband took a call from Bristol Street motors, asking if I'd decided to go ahead with a new turbo. The guy went off to get prices for all the different options and said he'd phone back. He just has.

I recognised him straight away - he was the service manager at Gloucester who I've dealt with for two years. I couldn't understand why he was asking about the fault codes and why he didn't know the details of the work done when it's all on the garage's computer system. It turns out that he'd phoned because Toyota customer relations had been in contact with him and asked him to contact me to find out what was going on. He's not at Bristol Street, he's in Lexus. Bristol Street Motors are not a Toyota garage at all. They've been sending out letters to say that they are approved for serving cars over 3 years old. But any garage is, you don't have to be a Toyota dealer. It's a very misleading letter, which I still have, and they've got lots of extra work out of it. Toyota are now actually in Lexus in Cheltenham.

I'm so cross, I can't believe what they've done. And now Toyota want £1500 for a recon turbo or £2200 for a brand new one. He said sending it to Turbo Technics just for new valves isn't really worth it as with the opti fit you get the whole lot overhauled and so know that thing like the bearings have been done. But he couldn't garantee that it would fix the problem, and there'd be no come back, so I could just waste £1500.

Time for a new car?

[anchorman]

Can I suggest you locate a VSV off;

http://www.findapart.co.uk/

It will take 10 mins to fit and I can give you some guidance on it. If you don't want to try just take it to a local garage and ask them to do it.. For what it will cost its worth a try.

[Mustapha]

I have the same problem with my 2003 rav. I've had it for two years, it's done 73k. Until this week it had done it's 'engine thing' only 4 times. The first, I was merrily driving up a hill in Cumbria when, without warning, the engine light came on and the power instantly disappeared. I pulled over, switched off and restarted, and off we went again without any problem. Then it happened in the fast lane of the motorway. Someone hesitated over pulling out, everyone around braked hard, including me, and the power suddenly went. Not much fun. This week it did it again on the motorway, but I wan't aware that I had accelerated or done anything to cause it.

Last night I started it and the engine light was on. I turned it off, then back on again and the light went out. But, when I drove away there was no power at all. I got the end of the road and turned around to get my husband's car instead - an R reg landcruiser that has been faultless! This morning I tried it to make sure I hadn't been imagining it, and the same thing happened.

It also stutters when accelerating, particularly in 3rd and 5th. I read somewhere that someone loosened the fuel cap slightly which solved this problem for them. I haven't had chance to try it yet.

After this week's motorway incident I had booked it in to Toyota anyway. I phoned them this morning to tell them it's undriveable, I can't take it to them and they told me I'll have to get the AA to take me in because they don't have a recovery truck. The earliest they can see it is Tuesday. So now I have to find a hire car to get me to work on Monday.

Lately it has been getting harder to start - I had to jump it for the first time a couple of weeks ago. And I don't think it's as powerful as it was 2 years ago. I thought maybe I'd just got used to it, or it felt weaker after driving the landcruiser more, but having read these pages I think maybe it has lost some power. Also I had the aircon regased at Easter and a couple of days later it wasn't working again. I couldn't go back to the garage because they had gone into adminstration the day after I was in and they disappeared overnight! Toyota have just opened again in Cheltenham under Bristol Street Motors Mazda and Fiat so I'm waiting to see what they'll do....

Such a shame, I really loved this car, it's been brilliant in the snow, but I just don't trust it now. Question is, what do I replace it with?

Dear all,

I am new to this site, but found it out as I was trying to understand what's wrong with my toyota Avensi, D4D (2004). I bought it two months ago and performed well untill yesterday. I am not going to described the problem since it's been descried over and over again. The thing that caught my attention is the term @ Limp Mode@ I did not have a clue what does that mean. I thought some other readers might also not be familiar with the term. Here is what I understood:

" Your engine management and maybe even your transmission is controlled by the ECU. As you know, all computers crash, all software has bugs, and mechanical equipment fails. As such, many ECU units are fitted with a 'limp home mode'. When it detects that something semi-serious is wrong, it enters the limp mode, which means that the engine won't rev beyond a pre-programmed speed, you can't accelerate very fast, or you may indeed be speed-restricted to 40 mph or similar. The transmission may even stay in one or two gears. Bad? Well, no, not really: The alternative would be to either let you drive at regular speeds, with the danger of letting you trash your car (expensive repair, means happy repair people, but angry driver), or stopping you from going anywhere (expensive recovery and stranded on the side of the road means happy recovery company, but angry driver)"

By the way, took th ecar to the garage where I got it from and was told they woul dneed to clean the ....gate ( I forgot the first part of the technical word for it. I will pick it up tomorrow and let you all know if any improveent.

Ths is scary, I bought a Toyota thinking it a reliable bet, but here you go....

Keep it up, this site is a therapeutical session!!!

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club.

Maybe you mean the wastegate but that is a generic term for the variable nozzle vacuum unit and the vsv that controls it. As for cleaning I think your garage would do more good by cleaning the EGR.

I hope you get it fixed OK - you need to restore your faith in a very good car.

[bitman]

D4D doesn't have a wastegate but it does have pressure limiting valve/switches. I would try to get any fault codes from the ECU first.

yeah, it sounds like the turbo overboosting. this should be adjustable. as i never touched a d4d i have no knowledge of how to.

[Mustapha]

D4D doesn't have a wastegate but it does have pressure limiting valve/switches. I would try to get any fault codes from the ECU first.

yeah, it sounds like the turbo overboosting. this should be adjustable. as i never touched a d4d i have no knowledge of how to.

Some more news.

The garage called me today saying the Turbo was cleaned and the car should behave OK now. I took it for a drive down the A4 motorway (I am in he Netherlands), unfortunately I simply did not recognize my car!!! Now power what so ever! Could not go beyond 120 Km/hr, RPM did not exceed 3000 rpm. I took it back. They looked at it again and now guess what. They decided it must be the Air Flow Meter!

I am no expert in none of this, in fact my wife is much better at cars then I, so I ma not making sense of this. It seems they were not methodical in trying to resolve this problem. They spent a day worth of work cleaning a Turbo, and it turned out not to be the problem!

The part will arrive tomorrow and will need to leave work and take the car back to them for an air flow meter replacement. I'll let you know if that resolved the much need power issue. I am driving to Italy end of next week and dearly need my car back. Frustrating.

Cheers,

[bitman]

wat een eikels die gasten!

i hope they do a better job with the air flow (maf) may be they even broke it while cleaning as it has a small wire inside... (know this from my lexus is200 time)

[Mustapha]

Dear all,

I finally got my car back with a new Air flow meter installed. I went for a proper test drive just to double check and guess what. It’s brilliant; I got my power back and no problems what so ever. I am a happy man again!!

Now the questions is, what really went wrong, was it the Turbo that got cleaned, with no results, or was it the airflow meter. Even still, as was said by one of your guests, that the broke the air flow meter while cleaning the turbo!!' They obviously would not admit to any of that. I'll leave it to the expert.

It was great reading the posts, I will keep track on the other problems, but please let us know how did it go with the fix, so that we understand a bit more what went wrong in each case.

All the best.

[Mach 1]

It is certainly undeniable that todays diesels are much more complex and therefore can be more problematic. I am just starting to get my head around the modern systems so everything I do at the moment is trial and error.

what i have found out though is the new type of variable vane wastegates can cause problems.

Older turbo systems have a single small disc on a turning lever that allows, or stops, exhaust gas flow through a port which creates or stop boost pressure to the inlet. The small disc (wastegate) is a simple unit that works quite effectively but lacks the control of the modern variable wastegates.

As I see it( please feel free to correct me)the variable type has multiple smaller discs all round the edge of the turbo unit that work off a sliding system connected to all the discs.this allows much better control of turbo boost pressure from avariety of temperatures, loads and speeds.

unfortunately it is much more complex and much more susceptible to sticking , either open or closed.

What causes this sticking action is the big dilemma. It looks like soot could be the main culprit, carbonising around the moving parts, but it could also be just wear and tear.

The main thing to check, as much as I can understand, is to make sure the arm from the actuator, control unit shows full movement from fully closed to fully open, of the variable vanes. but without a comparison it can be difficult to ascertain that full movement is allowed. A reference vehicle ( vehicle which is the same and functioning perfectly) could be used to identify the parameters.

Remember that it could also be worthwhile to check the movement of the "wastegate" (sorry anchorman) with engine hot aswell as cold, the amount of heat these parts are subjected to is absolutely tremendous, especially just after boost conditions.

The only thing I haven't done is try stripping down a variable vane type, and tbh I don't know if just cleaning it would cure the problem.

I would reccomend getting the turbo unit refurbished by a (very) reputable turbo repair company, if you believe the turbo wastegate is at fault

[anchorman]

The best way of describing the variable nozzle I can think of would be to compare it with a paddle wheel on a Mississippi steamer. If the blades of the paddle are out perpendicular the gas can flow right through but if they lie flat it closes off.

Just found this;

....and this;

....and this shows you how hard they can work;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1qQUe3nqaE&feature=related

[Mach 1]

The best way of describing the variable nozzle I can think of would be to compare it with a paddle wheel on a Mississippi steamer. If the blades of the paddle are out perpendicular the gas can flow right through but if they lie flat it closes off.

Just found this;

....and this;

....and this shows you how hard they can work;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1qQUe3nqaE&feature=related

Good find Anchorman. So in actual fact the parts that I have seen are actually the discs that are used to rotate the vanes to adjust boost, rather than open holes to release pressure,

interesting

As I've said I haven't stripped fully one to see the whole workings , other than the outer casing which showed the sliding ring and discs rotating. It's actually even more complex than I originally thought then, and therefore more prone to problems

[anchorman]

Yeh that's it, you can see the relationship between the "unison ring" and the vanes on page 5 of this on the 4.3 turbo;

Turbo 4.3.pdf