"dry Bearing" Sound From Gearbox/starter Area

[FFCBairn]

Hi all,

I've just reg'd here after having a look about the 'net for a fix to my problem.

I bought an '53 (reg'd 04) 18,000mls Rav4 xt3 from a main dealer last July. I test drove the car, really liked it but had a "Dry Bearing" sound coming from the engine bay area. I was assured if i bought the car the problem would repaired, so i went ahead with the deal. Within a few days of receiving the car the noise returned...got in touch with the dealer and told them about it along with some other things i needed done...long story short, eventually got the car in for repair 2nd week in December (don't ask!)..and it is still in the dealership today. They haven't got a clue as to what's causing the fault...or they do and just don't want to spend the money on a proper fix!!

Have been told that they have changed bearings in the gearbox and fitted a new clutch because there had been an after market one fitted (after 18k mls!!) Last we spoke, and believe me, speaking is becoming harder to do rather than rant...i was told by the workshop manager that they have been told about a possible problem with the 5th gear and sync being starved of oil, so they were going to remove the gear and check to see if this removes the problematic noise. Still waiting for their reply to that one!

This isn't a back street garage btw, a large dealership who deals in Japanese cars, but not Toyota.

When i first heard the noise, without checking, it sounded like a fan bearing...the more i drove the car(after test driving) it sounded more like a thrust bearing ready to fail. It started from cold, after about 5mins the noise stopped. For the first few months if i dipped the clutch(disengaged the engine)the noise would disappear, but just before the car went into the garage in December, the noise lasted longer and no longer stopped when pressing the clutch.

I was just wondering if anybody here knows of anyone having this problem or experienced it themselves...any info would be greatfully received!

Thanks for reading!

[dawesy]

sounds very much like a release bearing TBH. if the noise is still there with the clutch pedal down and in gear it isnt the gearbox.

a new clutch after 18,000 miles does seem strange, unless the previous owner rode the clutch a lot.

let us know what the garage says about the 5th gear although i doubt that is the problem

[FFCBairn]

Yeah, initially after buying the car...i thought the release(thrust) bearing, but just before it went into the garage, irrelevant whether clutch was in or out, i still got the noise. As far as i'm concerned the release bearing theory is void now because i was told a complete Toyota approved clutch assembly has been fitted now. As for the removal of the 5th gear and sync, i'm told that i'll find out tomorrow. Will let you know. Thanks for the reply! :-)

sounds very much like a release bearing TBH. if the noise is still there with the clutch pedal down and in gear it isnt the gearbox.

a new clutch after 18,000 miles does seem strange, unless the previous owner rode the clutch a lot.

let us know what the garage says about the 5th gear although i doubt that is the problem

[anchorman]

Welcome to the club.

Just do a little test to humour me.

With the engine ticking over just trickle some water over the alternator/serpentine belt and see if it makes a difference.

Regards

[FFCBairn]

Hi thanks :)

Ok...as i'm not a qualified mechanical engineer What would this show? And what would be the repair? New Belt/alternator? The reason i ask in advance is the car is still in the garage and i would ask them to try this procedure.

Thanks though, and i will ask them to do this tomorrow.

Welcome to the club.

Just do a little test to humour me.

With the engine ticking over just trickle some water over the alternator/serpentine belt and see if it makes a difference.

Regards

[anchorman]

Sorry!

Had to nip out for a bit.

Just have a read through this thread. It refers to a dry creaking/screeching sound;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...p;hl=serpentine

It takes one minute to do and takes the belts and pulleys out of the equation.

Regards

[Steve_T]

As the starter of the thread Anchorman has pointed you to, I thought I would add my thoughts on this.

I must admit, it does sound like there are some similarities here with the problem you're having and the sounds we experienced. As you'll read in the other thread, we had a new serpentine (or auxiliary) belt fitted and, once it had settled/bedded in, the noise eventually stopped.

At one point (when it was squealing like a stuck pig!), I could also make the noise stop by dipping the clutch - and then it got worse and wouldn't stop when the clutch was dipped. Sound familiar?

As Anchorman points out, the warm water trickle on the belt is a simple test that will rule the belt out or in. If the belt is the problem, the noise will stop the moment the water touches it.

We've had no problems since with the belt - even on cold mornings, although we now have an intermittent new sound to contend with - an occasional squealing sound (like someone rubbing a finger over a wet window) when driving along, usually when turning a corner or exiting a roundabout. It only lasts a second or two and doesn't happen every journey. It may still be connected to the belt - PAS pump, perhaps? Anyway, when I'm less busy I'll take it back to the garage for another look...

Good luck with getting your problem resolved!

Cheers,

Steve

[anchorman]

Steve

I would check the P/S belt and also that none of the wheels catch on the mudflaps or anything else when the wheel is turned - even the rears can catch the suspension etc.

As far as the serpentine belt goes and a change in noise as you press the clutch, it easy to forget that the front pulleys are connected to the clutch.......... via the crankshaft! If you press the clutch you physically move the crankshaft albiet within the confines of the endfloat (it should only be a few thou') but enough to alter the relative position of the bottom pulley but not the others - hence the slight change in noise. In my mechanicing days I remember endfoat so bad on old Bedford trucks that pressing the clutch could pop a single v belt off at the front!

I'm glad yours has settled down.

[FFCBairn]

Hi Steve,

the sound is a definite bearing sound...grinding! With my limited experience with slipping belts, the squeal they can make is very different from the one i hear from my car at the minute...that's not to say that it's not that because i am going to ask the workshop manager to try this...well he has nothing to loose, he says he's at a loss now if the 5th gear removal doesn't work!! After that it's back to shouting and pointing the finger of blame (and him on the defensive) with the dealer principal!!!! Oh joy!

As the starter of the thread Anchorman has pointed you to, I thought I would add my thoughts on this.

I must admit, it does sound like there are some similarities here with the problem you're having and the sounds we experienced. As you'll read in the other thread, we had a new serpentine (or auxiliary) belt fitted and, once it had settled/bedded in, the noise eventually stopped.

At one point (when it was squealing like a stuck pig!), I could also make the noise stop by dipping the clutch - and then it got worse and wouldn't stop when the clutch was dipped. Sound familiar?

Good luck with getting your problem resolved!

Cheers,

Steve

[Steve_T]

I would check the P/S belt.

I didn't realise the PAS system had a different belt! I thought it was driven from the serpentine belt.

Definitely something for the garage to check.

Thanks, as always, for your excellent advice!!

[anchorman]

I would check the P/S belt.

I didn't realise the PAS system had a different belt! I thought it was driven from the serpentine belt.

Definitely something for the garage to check.

Thanks, as always, for your excellent advice!!

Sorry for the confusion Steve, it is driven by the serpentine belt - I meant just check again to see it is Ok (and the pump is no loose or out of line etc). Only the alternator has a seperate belt.

I presume you have checked the fluid level? The pump tends to make a strange moaning noise if it gets starved of oil.

Cheers

[FFCBairn]

Hi all, an update from the garage...they removed the 5th gear and sync and no noise after that..also say that they think there's a oil starvation prob..said that they found dry, crusted oil where the oil is guided towards the gears (?) Can't remember exactly how he described that part tbh. Probably would be handy to see a drawing regarding this so i can visualize it better ...Hey i'm a computer person, not a mechanic! ;)

They are going to rebuild and test it today. Probably hear from them Friday..will let you know how it goes...

[anchorman]

Its very low mileage and it is possible for old oil to congeal in oilways etc.

Still, if this turns out to be 5th gear and sync, it is the first gearbox fault I can remember being reported. The mileage at 18k hasn't made it to the first change but it should have been done every other year. If you can demonstrate this was done it might be worth asking about a policy warranty claim.

[FFCBairn]

Yea..that's my thoughts too...

Tbh there isn't a problem regarding who's paying for the job because the car was like this before i bought it and was told it would be repaired for me before i did buy....silly me, trusting a dealership to be honest..... And i have paperwork proving they said they would do the repair before hand :) ...so their problem that way! As for the mileage, there was 18k when i purchased the car, by the time i got them to take the car in to do the job it was 6mths and 5k mls later, along with a lot of lies, mistrust and an absolute hatred of car salesmen and dealer principals.....in future, don't buy a Toyota from a Honda dealer....

My only nagging feeling now is..a low mileage, 3yr old car with this fault, will it happen again in the next 2-3yr...?

As they say, it's not over till it's over....Watch this space...!

Its very low mileage and it is possible for old oil to congeal in oilways etc.

Still, if this turns out to be 5th gear and sync, it is the first gearbox fault I can remember being reported. The mileage at 18k hasn't made it to the first change but it should have been done every other year. If you can demonstrate this was done it might be worth asking about a policy warranty claim.

[anchorman]

No I don't think it will happen again as long as the vehicle sees regular use (not necessarily high mileage). Oil starvation problems are rare on modern vehicles and I think it would take periods of several weeks or months non use to cause the problem.

It seems that you have had a tense time with the dealer but to be fair I would have taken quite a lot of convincing that such a problem had occured albeit I could only agree that the noise was there. The problems I have seen have been with old front wheel drive idler gears and such. In the seventies and eighties oils were nowhere near as good as today's modern semi synthetics.

Glad you don't have to pay - I can imagine they are really hacked off because this will cost them a bob or two both in labour and parts.

Its a good learning curve for the forum though!

Please keep us informed.

Regards

[FFCBairn]

Yea, you could say it's been tense ;)

Kinda find it hard to believe about the oil myself..especially with all the new modern oils out there. There was a contentious issue regarding what oil should be used in the gearbox; The specialist company who stripped the box at first claimed one type should be used, while Toyota's recommendation's were different, sighting this as part of the problem...who knows!

Regarding the cost, im a wee bit concerned that it could be a recurring problem. I wouldn't fancy footing the present bill...supposedly around £1500+

Makes me wonder if i should keep the car, i really do like it and enjoy driving it...and so does the workshop manager from Honda...so he keeps telling me But do i cut my losses or take a chance....hmm!

[anchorman]

Really if that turns out to fix it (don't mean to concern you but it has to be proved yet) then I would have absolutely no reservations. They are great vehicles and you will love it.

Cheers

[bothwell_buyer]

Aye, its a funny peculiar one.

Dunno all that much about the Toyota box as I've never had any problems with mine. Thats 168,000 miles now with the last 1500 coping with double the horsepower it used to handle.

Its so odd, I wonder if theres an inherent manufacturing fault with that box - ie a one-off.

I can understand how you feel.

Totally different, but I had a Foster Commercial freezer from new - £2500 worth. Never worked properly and kept over-working...with copious visits from the engineers from one of scotlands richest mans company (now I know why/how). No end of on-going trouble and no end of loss of foodstuff when it packed up. Eventually they sent 'an expert' out who reckoned the main circuit board had a manufacturing fault and changed various things. It worked better but not 100%. I sold it, and bought another 2nd hand one which works perfectly. Moral of the story - if the experts don't know whats causing it, then it'll happen again. Sell it and get another one after it gets fixed. Its maybe been abused had a traumatic event - who knows....

was in my 2nd RAV '94 for the first time today - 79,000 miles on the clock and really nice condition; drives well etc. I think the 1st RAV is jealous of the pristine paintwork and original interior!! Engine as new!

The alarm system is different to the one on the 1st car, so maybe its a replacement.

[FFCBairn]

In an ideal world, probably yes, get shot of it before it comes back to bite me in the *****...but hey, i'm no millionaire unfortunately! Therefore id have to take a hit on the trade-in price to get rid of it!

Garage says the car is as quiet as a wee moose, so going to pick it up this morning. Should be able to tell over the weekend if they're telling the truth at last

Ps. You will probably all know if the repair didn't work through the national news.....Mad Rav4 driver drives through forecourt of stirling dealership taking out all salesmen and dealer principal...even though his office is on the 2nd floor...well it is an off road vehicle! ;)

Aye, its a funny peculiar one.

Dunno all that much about the Toyota box as I've never had any problems with mine. Thats 168,000 miles now with the last 1500 coping with double the horsepower it used to handle.

Its so odd, I wonder if theres an inherent manufacturing fault with that box - ie a one-off.

I can understand how you feel.

Totally different, but I had a Foster Commercial freezer from new - £2500 worth. Never worked properly and kept over-working...with copious visits from the engineers from one of scotlands richest mans company (now I know why/how). No end of on-going trouble and no end of loss of foodstuff when it packed up. Eventually they sent 'an expert' out who reckoned the main circuit board had a manufacturing fault and changed various things. It worked better but not 100%. I sold it, and bought another 2nd hand one which works perfectly. Moral of the story - if the experts don't know whats causing it, then it'll happen again. Sell it and get another one after it gets fixed. Its maybe been abused had a traumatic event - who knows....

was in my 2nd RAV '94 for the first time today - 79,000 miles on the clock and really nice condition; drives well etc. I think the 1st RAV is jealous of the pristine paintwork and original interior!! Engine as new!

The alarm system is different to the one on the 1st car, so maybe its a replacement.

[bothwell_buyer]

you could publish their address and we could add it to our off-road driving experience route + stick it on the TomToms of another post as a main route through Scotland.....

[FFCBairn]

;) Like yer style!

I'll see how it goes when i turn her over from cold over the weekend!

you could publish their address and we could add it to our off-road driving experience route + stick it on the TomToms of another post as a main route through Scotland.....

[FFCBairn]

Hi all,

Just a wee note...all seems to be working as it should...without any noise from the gearbox...so far! ;) So it seems the last job done has been the fix to my problem ie. repairing the 5th gear and sync.....but still i can't get my head around it...am i being obtuse? Why would the 5th gear make noise while in neutral, also on take off?...Maybe some more of the enlightened here could explain this to me!

But happy days, the car's back! :D

[anchorman]

Hi FFC

I trawled the net and couldn't find any decent pics so I did a quick scetch in Excel for you.

Modern gearboxes are known as "constant mesh" gearboxes. All the gears are arranged accross a pair of shafts. The input shaft is connected to the engine and is shown in blue. You can see that is engaged with the layshaft which is grey. The layshaft is all one piece and has all the gears cut on it. Each of the gears is engaged with another gear on the output or main shaft. The gears are 1st, pink, 2nd, yellow, 3rd buff. We'll come to 4th later.

When no gear is selected (neutral) and the engine is running you can see that the input shaft turns, the layshaft turns and because the layshaft is engaged with 1st, 2nd and 3rd they also turn. Now, the thing to remember at this stage is that the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears are free to turn on the mainshaft - they are not engaged with it. However, the brown rings are the synchromesh and are engaged with the main shaft. If you select 1st gear, the gear cables and linkages move the 1st/2nd synchro accross the mainshaft and lock the gear to the shaft;

Now the input shaft, layshaft, 1st gear and output shaft are all locked together. If we use simple numbers and say that 1st gear layshaft has 20 teeth and 1st gear mainshaft has 100 teeth then the ratio is 5:1. In other words the output to the wheels is one turn for 5 turns of the engine and it is easy to start the car from a stand. 2nd and 3rd are also locked to the layshaft but free to turn still on the mainshaft so are effectively non existent.

Now you shift the gear stick to 2nd and look what happens;

Now you can see that the transmission path is via second gear and the ratio reduces to say 4:1. Next 3rd;

The 4th/3rd synchro is moved into mesh with 3rd gear and the ratio might be 2.5:1;

And finally 4th. The synchro engages the input shaft directly with the mainshaft and the ratio is 1:1;

On this drawing I've added a 5th gear. It is usually right at the back of the box and in its own little enclosure so it is often possible as in your case to change parts without taking the box out. You can see it is even smaller than 4th so one turn of the layshaft will result in more than one turn of the output shaft. This is known as overdrive, in other words the ratio is less than 1:1 and will provide higher road speed for lower engine revs.

This is all very simple and hypothetical but shows you that all gears are turning all the time and a dry bearing will also make noise all the time.

You can see a gearbox work (sort of) here;

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission.htm

Err, I might know how a gearbox works but I bgrd if I can turn these pics the right way up!

[FFCBairn]

Cheers mate :) Thank's for that detailed and very informative description,helps a lot!

And the car's still working fine! :)

[bothwell_buyer]

thT APPLY TO LANDROVERS !!??