Heater

[FoxX]

I'm pretty set on getting a facelift T sport (preferably red :) ) in the next few months though, so i'll just put up with it for a bit longer as its enough to heat the windscreen during this cold snap. I'd rather buy a new car than spend over £1000 fixing my old one, that repair bill sounds nasty.

Yup, no real point sinking that much cash into the car. Are you planning to trade it in?

Yep I usually trade in, so i'd expect £3400 - £3600 for mine - so i'd only have to make up the £2400 for a £6000 ish facelift budget. Problem is that the red or silver infact are very hard to find in Cheshire, with average milage anyway (40 - 50k). Grey ones are common as muck it seems.

Good luck with your heating!! at least you have some heat unlike some other topics around here or i'd be quite worried :) .

[morgie]

Thanks FoxX.

Am I right that if it were just the matrix there's no need to strip down the dash? Can anyone explain how the heater box and matrix relate to one another?

Anyone able to help confirm?

Slight update today - I called Toyota back to see if they were having anymore luck with their computer systems. As I understood they weren't able to access similar cases from other dealerships on Saturday. Today they could, but reported no similar matches to the problem I'm having (they could have at least found yours LAA ).

[nrgizerbunny]

just a thought, when you refilled with coolant did you use pink or blue?

You should NOT mix the colours, even if you flush it, you won't get it all out. If you have mixed the colours it will turn to jelly and cue the blocked matrix.

[Theorist]

what colour is standard ? mine has gone yellow now

[nrgizerbunny]

Pink/red is the for life coolant.

if you've mixed it you could could be in trouble.

[Theorist]

how many miles does the forlife stuff do?

[nrgizerbunny]

well toyota call it for life, i'm more of a 50k man myself.

[morgie]

just a thought, when you refilled with coolant did you use pink or blue?

You should NOT mix the colours, even if you flush it, you won't get it all out. If you have mixed the colours it will turn to jelly and cue the blocked matrix.

Hi nrgizer - thanks. I used pink. Trying to remember what was in there before, but the matrix seemed OK on the reverse flush so don't think it's blocked.

[limecc]

I have been reading these posts with great interest as my wife has been giving me earache for over a year because of the lack of heat. When she swopped cars I was forced into doing the reverse flush and powerwasher treatment but this only had minimal success from the bulkhead. Finally last weekend, faced with a hefty bill for a heater matrix anyway, I had nothing to lose trying to get the old one clear. It now burns hands even on full blower! This is how I did it:

1. Disconnect the heater pipes going to the matrix and plug them with a bung of some description to save coolant loss and effort repriming.

2. Attach a temporary hose to one of the stubs, take a big breath and blow out the coolant from the matrix. It will feel quite clear with no restriction.

3. Remove glovebox. Disconnect the clamps that are local to the matrix in the passenger footwell, and push the alloy pipes out of the way.

4. The matrix will withdraw 90% of the way but not be able to pass the engine management unit mount. Cutting the plastic bracket on the blower housing would be the easiest solution at this point, having one less mounting point for the ecu would be no detriment. Otherwise, remove the two screws securing the ecu and swing it down and unclip the wiring harness from the blower.

5. Don't try what I did and split the blower housing. There are two inaccessable screws at the back and it won't work. Don't be daunted, unbolt the whole housing instead and it will drop just enough to get the matrix by. There are some hard to spot screws!

6. Away from the car, remove the plastic deflector inside the inlet stub on the matrix. The inlet side had a blob of red paint and this goes to the bottom of the car as the matrix is not assymetrical.

7. Clean the matrix and assemble in reverse order. Fill matrix before connecting pipes at bulkhead, and check for leaks before bolting the blower back into position. I left the deflector out of the pipe to encourage more flow to the rear of the matrix.

I tried limescale remover, kettle descaler, power washer, power shower, violently shaking it empty, everything! I was getting grains of very hard limescale deposits out and also little pink crystal-like rocks of anti-freeze. The pink staining was coming out for ages - it took 1.1/2 hrs before I was happy in the end. I had a hot hairdryer on the outside of the empty matrix to dry it out internally, and try and crack any scale deposits inside. Then more flushing, and more acid cleaning etc. Borrowing Marigolds for protection, I ran scalding water on the outside to help the acid solutions work.

I think the deposits were acting as an insulator, preventing heat transfer, as I had no restriction or air locks, and my heater was probably one of the worst affected in this thread. If all you get is warm air when the blower is on the lowest speed and max temp, and cold air on max blow despite the pipes to/from the matrix being stinking hot, then you need a new matrix or to clean the old one. I think there is only a slim chance it will be an actuator or flap problem. The internal deflector and long pipes from the bulkhead mean an effective clean can only be done with the matrix out IMHO. If you overdo the clean then you've lost nothing, but be sure to give it hell - you hate the little bug**r. It's not technically difficult to get out, just damn awkward. I kept remembering my cash shortage as an incentive. Back to favourable terms with the missus and my own car too..

[exon16m]

Same poor heater function problem here also...

Looks like a failing part problem for toyota

[morgie]

limecc - really interesting post - thanks.

exon16m - sorry to hear of another cold Corolla cabin!

I'm ready to be shot down, but thinking (or typing) aloud, would there be any appropriate cleaning liquid/product that could be put through the system when doing a reverse flush to aid cleaning the matrix to avoid having to get it out? Did the limescale remover or kettle descaler help at all, would these be safe to flush around?

[limecc]

limecc - really interesting post - thanks.

exon16m - sorry to hear of another cold Corolla cabin!

I'm ready to be shot down, but thinking (or typing) aloud, would there be any appropriate cleaning liquid/product that could be put through the system when doing a reverse flush to aid cleaning the matrix to avoid having to get it out? Did the limescale remover or kettle descaler help at all, would these be safe to flush around?

Although household products are pretty tame compared to more industrial solutions (I did power station maintenance for 25yrs), I wouldn't go anywhere near the engine with acid. There are some good cleaning products like from Wynns or Holts that are specifically designed for the job, however I cannot predict the outcome for your car. I think it would only improve things, but these deposits were so severe I was risking making the matrix leak to clear them in my case. I shone my little LED torch in and could see the odd patch was still present after a hour and a half of vigorous flushing and acid fills.

We never changed the factory anti freeze, and when we did it was after the heater had been affected, so maybe this is the common factor for everyone here who is feeling the cold? Maybe it's bad design, or both.

Theoretically, if it were possible for a heat exchanger to be 100% efficient, you would get one medium out at the same temperature as the other. Water here is pressurized to prevent boiling of course! If the engine is up to temperature, there is no air lock or restriction, ie you have good hot flow (there is no water valve to check), and the air flap is shutting, then the matrix being scaled is the only thing left. Cleaning the condenser tubes under the turbines saves them hundreds of thousands of £'ss per year by increasing the efficiency of heat transfer to the river water on the inside of the tubes. There is a slimy film deposited which has to be removed. Likewise the furnace tubes have hot gluey dust contamination blown off with steam at regular intervals. I think the same principle was at work here keeping us cold. If the matrix were efficient but the water flow reduced, the symptom would be the return flow to the engine being cold similar to an air lock.

Now I've done the job, I think I could have it out and back in, in around 2hrs excluding cleaning time. How Toyota can suggest replacing the whole assembly in the earlier post is beyond me. They are either completely incompetent, or completely brazen in their pursuit of profit. It's only a plastic housing to hold the matrix and flap valves, and another housing to hold the blower motor and pollen filter for pity's sake.

If you don't have the success you would like with the specialist flushing products, and don't fancy taking it out yourself, then it's going to cost you unfortunately. Get an independent garage quote to replace the matrix. Take out the glovebox (doesn't even need tools) and show them how easy it looks to change! 3hrs labour and the price of an aftermarket matrix should get you toasting again.

P.S. Pure de-ionised water is also a great flushing agent for the engine and is completely safe. It has a very active desire to return to it's impure state and will suck the minerals and clean everything it touches. Many window cleaners use commercial kits employing this property for their trade.

[mrreach_69]

All useful stuff on this thread. I'm thinking for the cost of some system flush and new antifreeze its gotta be worth giving this a try first. After running the flush for 10 mins it needs to be drained from the system and I want to make sure I rinse it all out the system. I know theres a drain point on the bottom of the radiator but I've also seen people mention a drain on the engine block. Does anyone have any pics or diagrams of where this is please? I also changed my pollen filter today, obviously this doesn't solve the heater problem but I was amazed at the increased airflow & demisting power!!

[limecc]

10 mins doesn't seem very long to me, but afterwards I would drain it via the bottom hose and put in de-ionised water 2 or 3 times to flush the solution out and do further cleaning. If you decide to drain the block, there's no point unless you remember to also do the matrix. Several water flushes will clear it just as effectively and is easier.

When the de-ionised water is drained for the final time, fill the system with pure anti freeze the amount being half of the cooling system capacity in the handbook (can't remember what this is - sorry). Top up with water and you know you have the correct ratio mix in the system without getting the water out of the block.

[mrreach_69]

limecc thanks for the advice - I'll give it a try at the weekend and report back!

[morgie]

I have heat (finally)!!

With the engine still quite warm from a drive I did the flush again today, but also opted for putting some some Mr Muscle sink and plughole unblocker into the matrix via a funnel and piece of hose pipe. Left it in there for 30 mins (as recommended for your sink ) and then gave it a good flush through afterward with near boiling water and then the cold with the hose. Nothing particularly notable came out in the flush, just a few specs in the water so I was pretty disappointed. I did a second run through with some "Buster Kitchen Plug Hole & Sink Treatment". Again, nothing very visible seemed to come out in the flush.

Once I got in the car and took it for a drive (thinking I had just wasted more time on this) I was very surprised....I now have heat as I have never felt before in my T Sport!

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice on this thread. It's a shame I had to waste some money with Mr T only for Mr M to solve my problems!

[Tsporter]

I have heat (finally)!!

With the engine still quite warm from a drive I did the flush again today, but also opted for putting some some Mr Muscle sink and plughole unblocker into the matrix via a funnel and piece of hose pipe. Left it in there for 30 mins (as recommended for your sink ) and then gave it a good flush through afterward with near boiling water and then the cold with the hose. Nothing particularly notable came out in the flush, just a few specs in the water so I was pretty disappointed. I did a second run through with some "Buster Kitchen Plug Hole & Sink Treatment". Again, nothing very visible seemed to come out in the flush.

Once I got in the car and took it for a drive (thinking I had just wasted more time on this) I was very surprised....I now have heat as I have never felt before in my T Sport!

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice on this thread. It's a shame I had to waste some money with Mr T only for Mr M to solve my problems!

Nice one! Any chance of a detailed post on what exactly you done?....wanna try this myself and see if it works!

[morgie]

Happy to re-cap the steps I’ve taken for anyone to try. A few points to keep in mind – I’d already recently changed the coolant in the car, so I didn’t want to loose too much coolant. If you’re having problems with your heating it would seem to make sense to also first change your coolant. I should also add an “at your own risk” disclaimer, I obviously can’t be responsible for anything that happens as a result of anyone trying this (unless it’s just a lot of heat inside your car! ) – you’re going to be dealing with heat, bleach and other potentially dangerous stuff so make sure you’re prepared and careful!

Equipment needed:

a.) A hose pipe connected to running water

b.) Additional pieces of hose pipe (or similar):

* 1 short (~120cm or so should do)

* 1 longer (~1.5m or so will be plenty)

c.) A funnel (this needs to be able to connect to one end of the short piece of hose pipe)

d.) A measuring jug

e.) Your kettle with near boiling water to hand

f.) A bucket

g.) Scissors/knife (for cutting hose pipe)

h.) Pliers

i.) Mr Muscle Sink & Plughole Unblocker

j.) Buster Kitchen Plug Hole & Sink Treatment

k.) Engine coolant/water

l.) Protective Gloves

Hose Pipe Preparation:

One of the most annoying things I found when trying to do the flush was that a standard hose pipe is just too small to get around the connecting pipes to the matrix and awkward to fit inside the pipes. If you have a slightly larger pipe it would be an advantage, otherwise I recommend trying to stretch the hose pipe ends slightly. One way to achieve this can be to sit the end in some hot water for a minute and then push something like the end of your funnel into it which, with its wedge shape, should help to stretch the rubber. Leave it in place for a while to really stretch it out. Do this to the hose pipe end as well as one end on each of the additional pieces of hose pipe listed above.

Steps to Flush Matrix:

1.) Take the car for a drive to get the engine warmed up, turn the heater on and leave it on when you stop the engine. With the engine still warm I carefully released the pressure on the system by slowly undoing the radiator cap. I did this by wrapping a towel around it and wearing gloves – don’t get burnt!

2.) With the pressure released I then needed to disconnect the two connections that run into the cabin (if I’m right this is actually the connections directly to the matrix itself) – you’ll need your pliers. These photos should help confirm where I’m talking about if you’re not sure

 

Try and hook then upwards out of the way, e.g. so no coolant will flow out of them. When disconnecting them you may still lose a small amount of coolant.

3.) With those connections off and safely up and out of the way connect your hose pipe (with the water mains) to one of the connections. Make sure it’s a snug fit around the pipe. If you’re struggling to get the hose pipe on, re-read the preparation section – you’re going to need to stretch it out a bit or find an alternative.

4.) Connect the longer piece of hose pipe to the other connection and run this down into your bucket.

5.) Start running your hose gently to ensure you have a good flow, if water isn’t shooting our everywhere turn the hose up to full power. Repeat this step for ~ 3 buckets worth. If you’re seeing a lot of debris come out repeat until clear water runs.

6.) Switch the connections around to the opposite pipes and repeat steps 3 – 5.

7.) Disconnect the hose pipe end with the water flow and connect your shorter piece of hose pipe. Ensure that this is a clean pipe as you’re going to need to blow down it to force any remaining water out of the matrix and into your bucket. E.g. after this step there should be no liquid left in the matrix.

8.) Disconnect the long hose pipe so that one side of the matrix has nothing connected to it. Now attach the funnel to the end of the short piece of hose pipe that you have just blown into in step 7.

9.) We now want to fill the matrix with Mr Muscle! Holding the funnel high to let gravity do it’s bit to help slowly pour the Mr Muscle liquid into it. Keep your eye on the end of the matrix that has no pipe attached; you want to see a small amount of Mr Muscle get to the end here as you’ll then know you’ve filled the matrix. I used a 500ml bottle and found this to be just enough to fill the matrix. During the fill I had to add a very small amount of near boiling water from the kettle to encourage it through the matrix.

10.) You can now take a break! Leave the Mr Muscle solution in the matrix for 30mins.

11.) Re-attach the long piece of hose that you have running into your bucket onto the free connection to the matrix and give the Mr Muscle an initial flush through with some near boiling water - this is where the kettle comes in! Pour it slowly into the funnel which should still be attached. You may want to repeat this a couple of times.

12.) Disconnect the short piece of hose that you had attached with the funnel. You then want to repeat steps 3 to 7 to completely flush the system and empty the matrix.

13.) Optional Step – I repeated the steps above using Buster Kitchen Plug Hole & Sink Treatment. As I didn’t test the car in-between using the Mr Muscle and this I can’t say for sure which one solved the problem, or if it was a combination of both. As this is a powder type solution I mixed it up with some near boiling water in a measuring jug and poured it in once more via the funnel.

14.) With the matrix empty reconnect the engine hoses that you disconnected in point 2, again, using your pliers.

15.) Put the radiator cap back on. Check you’ve not missed anything else – everything should be reconnected.

16.) Take the car for a short spin (enough to get up to operating temp) – hopefully by that point you’ll feel some heat!

17.) Once the engine has cooled check your coolant levels in your radiator and overflow tank, you may need to top them up to replace the coolant lost from the matrix during the flush.

I hope this is of some help, I'd be interested in the results anyone else gets from it. Also, if it's unclear at all please let me know.

Edited December 30, 2016 by morgie
December 2016 - updated adding the photos again that has been lost due to a change of hosting!

[Tsporter]

Happy to re-cap the steps I’ve taken for anyone to try. A few points to keep in mind – I’d already recently changed the coolant in the car, so I didn’t want to loose too much coolant. If you’re having problems with your heating it would seem to make sense to also first change your coolant. I should also add an “at your own risk” disclaimer, I obviously can’t be responsible for anything that happens as a result of anyone trying this (unless it’s just a lot of heat inside your car! ) – you’re going to be dealing with heat, bleach and other potentially dangerous stuff so make sure you’re prepared and careful!

I hope this is of some help, I'd be interested in the results anyone else gets from it. Also, if it's unclear at all please let me know.

Brilliant thanks for that, will give it a try during the week!! Legend!

[LAA69]

I have heat (finally)!!

With the engine still quite warm from a drive I did the flush again today, but also opted for putting some some Mr Muscle sink and plughole unblocker into the matrix via a funnel and piece of hose pipe. Left it in there for 30 mins (as recommended for your sink ) and then gave it a good flush through afterward with near boiling water and then the cold with the hose. Nothing particularly notable came out in the flush, just a few specs in the water so I was pretty disappointed. I did a second run through with some "Buster Kitchen Plug Hole & Sink Treatment". Again, nothing very visible seemed to come out in the flush.

Once I got in the car and took it for a drive (thinking I had just wasted more time on this) I was very surprised....I now have heat as I have never felt before in my T Sport!

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice on this thread. It's a shame I had to waste some money with Mr T only for Mr M to solve my problems!

Hey well done fella, well pleased for you .....

[Theorist]

thanks for that .will try this when i get a chance.do you have hot from all vents now?

[morgie]

Cheers guys!

Tsporter - good luck if you try this, I'll watch here for any updates.

thanks for that .will try this when i get a chance.do you have hot from all vents now?

Yup, heat from all vents as expected even when fans are set to max - a big difference! Good luck if you try this also.

[Tsporter]

Cheers guys!

Tsporter - good luck if you try this, I'll watch here for any updates.

thanks for that .will try this when i get a chance.do you have hot from all vents now?

Yup, heat from all vents as expected even when fans are set to max - a big difference! Good luck if you try this also.

Tried this today and there is a definite difference in the heat!! I followed morgie's post step by step, when i was done i drove 3 mile home with the fan and heat on max. I had to turn it down as I was getting too warm. During the initial flush, before i used the Mr Muscle, i noticed the liquid was quite milky looking...

So haven't given it a proper test yet, but there is a definite improvement. Will know tomorrow when i'm up at 5am to work...will let ya know how that goes!!

p.s. i had posted a while back that I got the heat back after bringing it to the mechanic, but this only lasted a few weeks and was only a small increase in heat. Hopefully this will last longer.

Thanks again morgie!!

[morgie]

No worries, sounds good TSporter! I'll watch for your update tomorrow. You mention the milky look to what came out during the original flush, have you changed your coolant recently?

[limecc]

I'm really pleased for everyone. Since my last post I was going to suggest an in-situ clean as described. If the matrix leaks then you would have had the same effort as me but you had everything to gain for a lot less hassle. A tip I would suggest is to get some proper 5/8" coolant hose to connect temporarily to the matrix as it's so cheap.

I've been reading about different types of anti-freeze. There is a difference between the Toyota red and VW or GM pink and they should not be mixed either like the blue. I'll find the links again as soon as I can in case anyone is interested. This may have been the cause.

Here's one:

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa052601a.htm

Part quote: (highlights mine)

"In many US and Japanese antifreeze formulas phosphate is added as a corrosion inhibitor. European vehicle manufacturers, however, recommend against the use of phosphate containing antifreeze. The following will examine the different positions on this issue to help judge the pros and cons on phosphate inhibitors.

In the US market, a phosphate inhibitor is included in many formulas to provide several important functions that help reduce automotive cooling system damage. The benefits provided by the phosphate include:

•Protect aluminum engine components by reducing cavitation corrosion during high speed driving.

•Provide for corrosion protection to ferrous metals.

•Act as a buffer to keep the antifreeze mixture alkaline. This prevents acid build-up that will damage or destroy metal engine parts.

European manufacturers feel that these benefits are achievable with inhibitors other than phosphate. Their main concerns with phosphate containing products are the potential for solids dropout when mixed with hard water. Solids can collect on cooling system walls forming what is known as scale. This concern comes from the fact that European water is much harder than water in the US. Because phosphate "softens" water by forming solids of calcium or magnesium salts that can dropout of solution, there is potential for cooling system blockage. The phosphate level in most US and Japanese antifreeze formulas do not generate significant solids. Furthermore modern antifreeze formulations are designed to minimize the formation of scale. The small amount of solids formed presents no problem for cooling systems or to water pump seals."