Rattle And Shushing Noise From 2litre Petrol

[pat bryant]

Dear All,

First post as new member. I have a (genuine) 40kmile S reg 5door VX; one previous lady owner, never raced or rallied, every service done. Yesterday, after a fast motorway journey, I noticed an intermittent clattery rattle and, what I can only describe as a 'shushing' noise (also intermittent) when sitting at traffic lights. Under bonnet inspection on the drive at home revealed nothing obvious. Blipping the throttle caused these noises which seemed to be coming from the timing belt side of the engine or under the exhaust manifold heatshield.

My local (Manchester) Toyota agent has offered to diagnose this; starting at £50. I am happy to do most maintenance myself but would be grateful for members advice on possible source of problem and then level of DIY difficulty.

Thanks,

Pat Bryant

[bothwell_buyer]

Sounds like a job for anchormans miracle cure??? Pouring a wee bit water on the serpentine belt to see if the noise disappears?? He'll be here later -

[anchorman]

Mmm.

Might not be the belt on this one!

I think you might have hit the nail on the head with your own diagnosis. It sounds to me like the exhaust heat shield has come loose. They tend to perish with age and then resonate depending on engine revs. With the engine cool (remember that the manifold will glow when the engine is worked hard!) just tap around that shield and see if it rattles. The proper cure is a new one but if you get a suitable jubilee clip and open it up you can tighten it around the bottom of the shield. That usually dampens the vibration. Sometimes it is a bolt that has dropped out. Just have a good look around it.

Keep us informed.

[bothwell_buyer]

Mmm.

Might not be the belt on this one!

I think you might have hit the nail on the head with your own diagnosis. It sounds to me like the exhaust heat shield has come loose. They tend to perish with age and then resonate depending on engine revs. With the engine cool (remember that the manifold will glow when the engine is worked hard!) just tap around that shield and see if it rattles. The proper cure is a new one but if you get a suitable jubilee clip and open it up you can tighten it around the bottom of the shield. That usually dampens the vibration. Sometimes it is a bolt that has dropped out. Just have a good look around it.

Keep us informed.

Well done - I'd forgotten about that - it hapened on my old engine - vibration was a real pain. Disappeared when I changed the engine (not the reason I changed )

[pat bryant]

Mmm.

Thanks Chaps,

I will certainly report the outcome. I suppose what was really worrying me was the possibility of something coming loose or failing on the timing/cam belt side. Regardless of the documented cambelt change at 25kmiles, based on vehicle age not miles, there must be a certain failure rate of parts and jobs. That is to say, there is little comfort in reading your service history as you travel in a recovery vehicle along with your car and blown-up engine.

Time to purchase a manual! Any advice here or is it just Haynes?

Best Regards,

Pat

[anchorman]

Mmm.

Thanks Chaps,

I will certainly report the outcome. I suppose what was really worrying me was the possibility of something coming loose or failing on the timing/cam belt side. Regardless of the documented cambelt change at 25kmiles, based on vehicle age not miles, there must be a certain failure rate of parts and jobs. That is to say, there is little comfort in reading your service history as you travel in a recovery vehicle along with your car and blown-up engine.

Time to purchase a manual! Any advice here or is it just Haynes?

Best Regards,

Pat

Pat

The very best manuals are on the Toyota website but unfortunately your model isn't covered. The haynes manuals that are available are for the US spec which has a different engine but many other similarities. You can usually pick them up off eBay.

With regard to the fault well my diagnosis is not definitive and no guarantee that nothing more sinister is afoot but these are generally very good vehicles and I would tend not to look on the dark side.

Cheers

[pat bryant]

Mmm.

Thanks Chaps,

I will certainly report the outcome. I suppose what was really worrying me was the possibility of something coming loose or failing on the timing/cam belt side. Regardless of the documented cambelt change at 25kmiles, based on vehicle age not miles, there must be a certain failure rate of parts and jobs. That is to say, there is little comfort in reading your service history as you travel in a recovery vehicle along with your car and blown-up engine.

Time to purchase a manual! Any advice here or is it just Haynes?

Best Regards,

Pat

Pat

The very best manuals are on the Toyota website but unfortunately your model isn't covered. The haynes manuals that are available are for the US spec which has a different engine but many other similarities. You can usually pick them up off eBay.

With regard to the fault well my diagnosis is not definitive and no guarantee that nothing more sinister is afoot but these are generally very good vehicles and I would tend not to look on the dark side.

Cheers

Dear All,

Just spent a (perishing cold) day on the yard investigating this problem. Removed both drive belts, hence eliminated alternator, power steering pump, and AC compressor. Now convinced that the 'shushing' is from the timing belt cover and does sound like a belt rubbbing something. The rattle also comes from the same location, but without a manual I do not know what might be causing this; could it be a tension adjuster pulley? Both noises are intermittent.

I would have carried on and removed the cover (it appears to be in two halves) but at that point I could no longer feel my fingers. I did remove a rubber inspection bung but due to the very limited space could not see what was behind it except that it felt like the end of a shaft but was stationary with the engine running.

I did confirm that the timing belt had been changed at 35kmiles (now at about 45k); well, at least that what it saya on a sticker in the engine bay. Any further advice would be most welcome

Pat

[anchorman]

I can't help you specifically because I've never done one. All I would do is persevere and take the cover off (on a warmer day). I did have an old Carina II that made a bizaar noise from the belt. All it wanted was tensioning slightly! When you revved the engine it was OK but when the engine slowed back to idle the belt came off tension and it made a king of rattling Brrrr resonating noise!!!

I fitted a new belt and that cured it but after the belt bedded in and lost some of the initial tension it started again. It never actually came to any harm.

However, if you are confident the noise is coming from in there you need to get on with it as you don't want anything belt driven to fall apart. Inspect everything with bearings carefully.

Good luck

[Robert6920]

Don't know if this'll help but my daughter had a Punto a couple of years back, had to have the head ground flat (@60k miles) and they changed timing belt at same time but, rather strangely, not the tensioner. The belt never made a noise before but within a few miles of getting her car back, there was odd noise which she says was a bit like you describe. Dealer replaced the tensioner (only cost me the part, thankfully, they did the labour foc) and noise was gone.

[bothwell_buyer]

Which engine is fitted in the VX then??

[pat bryant]

Thanks all,

I will let you know when this is resolved, but for now...

Yes, I can imagine a failing tensioner (thanks Robert). After my first efforts (and Anchorman's exhortation) I decided to remove the top section of the belt cover. Infuriatingly, and after removing the alternator, I could find no way to get a spanner on the last pin; what a very tightly packed engine bay, reminded me of early attempts at DIY on a Mini. Even though I am now older wiser(?) and much better equipped, I still said some quite rude things about Japanese design. There is a rubber bung in the cover which I am sure allows for belt tensioning. Again, I imagine this requires special tool 36b or something because space is so tight. The top cover is plastic so I was able to bend it away to see the belt (which looked fine) and notice that there was a little more play in it than I would expect.

The engine, as you ask, is a 3S-FE and in my search for a manual, which may well make life a lot easier, I read that the Haynes US version does describe the 2litre petrol and mentions the 3S-FE lump. Given that this seems to be the only book available, excepting the v costly, genuine workshop manual, what are your views on this? I also noticed some websites offering CD,s or Downloads of 'genuine' manuals for about £15, but was suspicious of the content.

Nil Illegitimi Carborundum

Pat

[bothwell_buyer]

Thanks all,

I will let you know when this is resolved, but for now...

Yes, I can imagine a failing tensioner (thanks Robert). After my first efforts (and Anchorman's exhortation) I decided to remove the top section of the belt cover. Infuriatingly, and after removing the alternator, I could find no way to get a spanner on the last pin; what a very tightly packed engine bay, reminded me of early attempts at DIY on a Mini. Even though I am now older wiser(?) and much better equipped, I still said some quite rude things about Japanese design. There is a rubber bung in the cover which I am sure allows for belt tensioning. Again, I imagine this requires special tool 36b or something because space is so tight. The top cover is plastic so I was able to bend it away to see the belt (which looked fine) and notice that there was a little more play in it than I would expect.

The engine, as you ask, is a 3S-FE and in my search for a manual, which may well make life a lot easier, I read that the Haynes US version does describe the 2litre petrol and mentions the 3S-FE lump. Given that this seems to be the only book available, excepting the v costly, genuine workshop manual, what are your views on this? I also noticed some websites offering CD,s or Downloads of 'genuine' manuals for about £15, but was suspicious of the content.

Nil Illegitimi Carborundum

Pat

Dear pat

I thought it might be the 3SFE but not entirely sure.

I will scan the pages re the belt tensioner and post the links to the pages up here today, in time for you to jam yer fingers afore tea-time!

[bothwell_buyer]

OK

I think these are the right images - if not let me kknow-

cambelt1

cambelt2

cam3

cam4

cam5

I have scanned the pages today, but found I'd already scanned them before!!

hope this helps,

Ian

[pat bryant]

OK

I think these are the right images - if not let me kknow-

Dear Ian,

Many thanks for your generous sendings. I now have a much clearer way forward and feel even more urgency after noticing that the belt also drives the oil pump. EEK!!!

As I suspected, the rubber bung allows an adjustment of the idler pulley; hence belt tension, also more bits (than I removed) have to be stripped out to gain reasonable access. Given the time of year, lack of a garage, and need to have the car off the road for as short a time as possible, I have to admit to DIY failure and have booked in at a local garage.

The mechanic I spoke to seemed to know his stuff and suggested that one source of trouble with cambelt replacements was that garages would only replace the belt when it would be better, in his opinion, and for a few more quid to get a 'kit' and replace all the wearing parts. Considering other useful comments in this discussion, it may be that only re-tensioning is required but along with the 'shushing' belt noise there is the mechanical rattle. Anyway, all will be revealed this friday and I will report back for your interest and that of the RAV4 members.

With Thanks,

Pat

[bothwell_buyer]

Know how you feel - am working to get a floodlight re-wired on the caravan and have a space heater blasting away in the caravan with the big propane bottle outside its window!! Its either too hot or too cold! need to get the fuse unit re-located as well for this evening so everything works for the rugby training - we have a top coach over from Denmark this week.

Its not the weather to be working outside - numb fingers and lots of

[Coles]

Hi folks. 'Orrible raspy noise? If I had to guess I'd say it is the Manifold Converter that has the problem. Here's a thread where I dealt with the problem. The new manifold converter got rid of ALL the 'orrible raspy noise, and got the Rav through the emissions test.

:D

[pat bryant]

Dear All,

Well, after all the interesting and useful discussion, here it is! The noises were generated by a failing water pump. Although no leaks or other cooling problems, after replacement, noise from the engine bay was considerably reduced. Diagnosis was by removing the timing side cover and feeling the various pulleys. The water pump had obvious play. My favourite back-street garage did the job for £100 ( pump £35; coolant £5 labour £60). They had the car for a couple of days and the place can look a bit scary, but if you hold your nerve you realise that they do actually know what they are doing; probably much more so than the trainee at Toyota Central.

Thanks to everyone for the comments/advice. I hope this report will be useful to the membership in future

Best Regards,

Pat

ps Astonished that this belt drives so many vital functions

[bothwell_buyer]

Dear All,

Well, after all the interesting and useful discussion, here it is! The noises were generated by a failing water pump. Although no leaks or other cooling problems, after replacement, noise from the engine bay was considerably reduced. Diagnosis was by removing the timing side cover and feeling the various pulleys. The water pump had obvious play. My favourite back-street garage did the job for £100 ( pump £35; coolant £5 labour £60). They had the car for a couple of days and the place can look a bit scary, but if you hold your nerve you realise that they do actually know what they are doing; probably much more so than the trainee at Toyota Central.

Thanks to everyone for the comments/advice. I hope this report will be useful to the membership in future

Best Regards,

Pat

ps Astonished that this belt drives so many vital functions

Well done on getting the problem fixed and for not too many pennies!! There ye are - learn sumpthin everyday!!

[pinkbits69]

all dealers should do a foc inspection, this is usually mention in big letters in the booking in area

[pmb]

Just had Mr T replace the water pump for 327 quid(inc vat). Breaks down as (all plus vat) 112.47 labour, 91.05 for the pump , 47.65 for the belt (don't know if that was replaced pat) and 27.12 for coolant .