T180 Poor Mpg, Performance And Road Noise

[Parker2008]

*UPDATE*: HOPEFULLY OF MUCH INTEREST ON THIS TOPIC..

Having been fobbed off by the main dealer, I took it on myself to have a 'rolling road' test at an independent diagnostic/tuning centre (cost about £40) and it confirms what I've been thinking all along: 'T180' (which is actually rated at 177BHP) only gave peak 120BHP onto the road!!! The engineer advised me that the loss between engine rated power and what is put onto the road is typically 20-25 BHP and so even allowing for this it shoudl have put down 152- 157 BHP.

Upshot - actual power probably 32- 37 BHP less than what it should be. This, along with motorway mpg's of around 35 MPG doing steady 70 mph (I have yet to achieve the official 'urban' mpg whilst actually doing mainly 'extra-urban' mileage!) is completely unacceptable. I've now done 2500 miles and there hasn't been any improvement whatsoever between successive tankfulls.

In my view, it is now completely clear that the BHP and MPG problem are related and I will be challenging Toyota under the warranty to either fix it, replace it or give me a complete refund. Consumers such as us have rights under the Sales of Goods Act. If I order a 50" Plasma and a 32" CRT gets delivered, it's simply not on. Similar principle here! I know others have said it's naive to believe official figures but I'd say this is 'out of the ballpark' on mpg and bHP, not just a minor quibble. If your T180 is good then I'm glad for you, but if you have the same MPG as me, I'm sure you'll have the same goddam awful BHP situation if you have it tested...

Since encountering these problems I've identified 3 other people at the place I work with the same car/engine and same problems - COME ON TOYOTA - OWN UP - there is a serial defect on these models isn't there?!

Vaughan

Just a word about the tyres. I have a T Spirit Auto just 6 weeks old and I have already set about changing the wheels and tyres. The ride quality on some local roads was more akin to a GoKart than a luxury car. The roar from the tyres (Goodyear NCT 5 on 17" alloys) is terrible.

I have researched it on the net and I have ordered new 16" alloys which will be fitted with Michelin Primacy HP tyres. (I emailed Michelin and they were very helpful) Let's hope it improves things otherwise it will be £700 down the drain!

[Adyone]

Vaughan

Are you going to write directly to Toyota on this subject?

I don't think they will respond on a public site such as this. :(

Regards

Adrian

PS My T180 is currently showing 41.8 ave mpg since the last fill up (155 miles of very mixed roads since last Friday).

Going by brim to brim and mileage covered, I got 40.1 ave mpg.

Performance is very good although I haven't tried other T180's

[Andy40]

I had a similar experience with an Avensis 180 I had on hire, I was totally blown away by a Seat Cordoba 130 tdi on a slip road...very irritating. These diesel particulate filters really are a step backwards in my opinion.

[matty2767]

yes but doesnt the seat have the similar engine to the golf gti and you wouldnt have known if it was chipped.

[Stephen Kowalzcuk]

yes but doesnt the seat have the similar engine to the golf gti and you wouldnt have known if it was chipped.

Also the Cordoba is significantly lighter and those 8 valve VW PD engines have virtually no lag, they spool up mega quick.

[Groovy Mucker]

I think we have to separate those cars with problems identified objectively (eg our friend who used the rolling road) from those which don't "feel" as quick. I have the fuel consumption "problem", but when I compare my T180 to my last car, which had a 147 bhp engine, I am quite satisfied I'm getting the extra power.

[OldSkoO1]

Naturally you worry your own car isn't performing as well as it should be when you read something like.

However, i know my auris t180 is on the mark because i can easily keep up with octavia vrs', easily keep up with the other varients like the gti and that same engine in the 2 door cab type car the VW's have EOS i think. I've never raced but sometimes on dual carridge ways people like to accelerate, never really had anything going with a type-r but the one encounter was positive enough to suggest it wasn't slower.

Also my cars easily quicker* than the 170tdi's in the passat i see so many of

and even a twin turbo 335d coupe had an exremely hard time trying to pass me once; to the extent that it nearly took off my front bumper as he forced his way back in, infront of me.

I get around 40mpg in the colder weather, warmed easily 43-45mpg and if i'm caining it everywhere, 38mpg. I only drive mixed town and A roads, up and down hills so i reckon what i achieve is very good.

[Bry]

Well, the rolling road result is exactly as i expected, and i am also convinced the consuption and lack of power are related, as i soon found out, the performance matches roughly a 130 Mondeo, slower at lower rpm, but edges it above 3K, the 2.2 ford, leon tdi etc eat the T180 alive!

WE ARE BEING RIPPED OFF!!!

I will certainly book mine in for a rolling road test as I fully intended to before Toyota suggested a EGR, which made no difference at all. Then continue my case.

Are we certain the 177BHP is not road power?

I dont understand how there can be any difference between measuring power/torque on a diesel to a petrol, power and torque is power and torque, the rolling road doesn't give a stuff what fuels in the tank.

Also this is the first car out of 40 plus which I dont get at LEAST official consumption

I do over 2K per month and I am achieving a fairly stable 40. something on Sainsbury's, the best fuel I have found for this car.

Re Auto wipers and climate etc, Our other car, a BMW330i has all the same features of which every one works perfectly without ever having to consider manual intervention! It also produces 272HP has claimed combined cycle of 39mpg we achieve 40 around the doors and an easy 45 on a decent run, but better still, it goes like stink!!!! stuff this diesel DPF junk in future, oh and I forgot to add, petrol is 10p per litre cheaper, servicing is once in a blue moon, doesn't take a genious to work out the most cost effective? and I know which one I would rather be in, no contest, just cant get the wife out of it!

[Bry]

Naturally you worry your own car isn't performing as well as it should be when you read something like.

However, i know my auris t180 is on the mark because i can easily keep up with octavia vrs', easily keep up with the other varients like the gti and that same engine in the 2 door cab type car the VW's have EOS i think. I've never raced but sometimes on dual carridge ways people like to accelerate, never really had anything going with a type-r but the one encounter was positive enough to suggest it wasn't slower.

Also my cars easily quicker* than the 170tdi's in the passat i see so many of

and even a twin turbo 335d coupe had an exremely hard time trying to pass me once; to the extent that it nearly took off my front bumper as he forced his way back in, infront of me.

I get around 40mpg in the colder weather, warmed easily 43-45mpg and if i'm caining it everywhere, 38mpg. I only drive mixed town and A roads, up and down hills so i reckon what i achieve is very good.

Nice to know someone is happy with a T180 engined vehicle! Dont know why you think warmer weather will improve consumption, the colder the charge the better in regards to power, cold is more oxygen , the producer of power in a diesel. Arn,t you supposed to get 48 MPG and thats average???

As far as being easily quicker than Passat 170's, they are very rare, how do you know they are 170's? if they are I am sure you would not get one of your bumper and they are also twice as heavy as an Auris! Also re a 335d, forget it, no way on this planet, unless they were using 6th gear only, they will spit a T180 Auris into oblivion while also pulling the Titanic off the bottom of the Atlantic! Really sorry but not prepaired to accept that one!

[matty2767]

i agree there is no way you would have kept up with the 335d. they do 60 in 6.2.

i dont think you can compare 'races' with other cars. there are too many unknowns and to be honest comparing with fords and vws, the performances are so close that just coming off the bend on a slip road with your foot down slightly earlier will result in a noticable speed gain.

however on the topic of fuel economy i think you have a stronger case with toyota.

just my thoughts, dont flame me if you disagree :)

[IwillmissmyDSG]

Just a few comments about some of the earlier postings

BMW320D auto - had one of these on hire in Ireland last month for the best part of a week, fantastic car, powerful & smooth, didn't want to give it back - MPG on the computer said 47mpg not 50-60 as being bandied about, and in reality, brim to brim it was actually 42mpg.

I'm currently driving a VW Touran 2.0TDI, my last big journey was Manchester-Woowich - Portsmouth - solihull - Manchester - on the segment through to solihull, done mostly on motorway using cruise control at motorway speeds I got 40mpg brim to brim - on the last segment solihull to Manchester, virtually all motorway, without using cruise control and averaging 68mph ;) for the whole journey filling station to filling station I got brim to brim 53mpg on Tesco's finest.....puzzled!

My hire car this week was a Vectra SRI 1.8 petrol - as it was up in Scotland I stuck religiously to the speed limits (tooooo many gatso's up there), mostly national limit and motorway I got 42mpg brim to brim out of a flaming petrol burner!....even more puzzled

I'm starting to wonder if diesel is really the best choice these days given the expanding price differential over petrol, the increased cost of diesel engined models, and what appears to be the general lack of ability for diesel engined vehicles to hit the published economy figures - on my VW my MPG is all over the place, last tankfull was 34mpg which is not acceptable, and I don't seem to be able to control it as it wasn't being driven much differently from the 53mpg, it seems to be a law unto itself on fuel consumption.

It doesn't have a DPF by the way.

[matty2767]

i am of the opinion that cruise control isnt an effiecient way of travelling. if you swith the display to instantaneous mpg it regularly drops in the 30s. whereas this doesnt happen at all when you drive it yourself.

i agree bout the bmws. i had a 525d for a short time and it was very good, but then it is £10k more and a smaller load space. you do get what you pay for. i suppose the extra money will be spent on r&d, which is why you get much higher performance from a similar sized engine. take the vw tdi for another example.

this might be a sily idea, but is it possible to bypass the dpf filter. similarly to how specilist exhaust systems bypass the cat?then you can see if the performance comes back?

[Jock Fran]

Re Auto wipers and climate etc, Our other car, a BMW330i has all the same features of which every one works perfectly without ever having to consider manual intervention! It also produces 272HP has claimed combined cycle of 39mpg we achieve 40 around the doors and an easy 45 on a decent run, but better still, it goes like stink!!!! stuff this diesel DPF junk in future, oh and I forgot to add, petrol is 10p per litre cheaper, servicing is once in a blue moon, doesn't take a genious to work out the most cost effective? and I know which one I would rather be in, no contest, just cant get the wife out of it!

That is superb mate. I take it it's the newer model with all the efficient dynamics stuff?

It really seems to work - I have a mate who bought a 325i coupe just before it was all introduced - he's being punished with about 23mpg!!

[OldSkoO1]

Naturally you worry your own car isn't performing as well as it should be when you read something like.

However, i know my auris t180 is on the mark because i can easily keep up with octavia vrs', easily keep up with the other varients like the gti and that same engine in the 2 door cab type car the VW's have EOS i think. I've never raced but sometimes on dual carridge ways people like to accelerate, never really had anything going with a type-r but the one encounter was positive enough to suggest it wasn't slower.

Also my cars easily quicker* than the 170tdi's in the passat i see so many of

and even a twin turbo 335d coupe had an exremely hard time trying to pass me once; to the extent that it nearly took off my front bumper as he forced his way back in, infront of me.

I get around 40mpg in the colder weather, warmed easily 43-45mpg and if i'm caining it everywhere, 38mpg. I only drive mixed town and A roads, up and down hills so i reckon what i achieve is very good.

Nice to know someone is happy with a T180 engined vehicle! Dont know why you think warmer weather will improve consumption, the colder the charge the better in regards to power, cold is more oxygen , the producer of power in a diesel. Arn,t you supposed to get 48 MPG and thats average???

As far as being easily quicker than Passat 170's, they are very rare, how do you know they are 170's? if they are I am sure you would not get one of your bumper and they are also twice as heavy as an Auris! Also re a 335d, forget it, no way on this planet, unless they were using 6th gear only, they will spit a T180 Auris into oblivion while also pulling the Titanic off the bottom of the Atlantic! Really sorry but not prepaired to accept that one!

RE: cooler temp:

Most fuels suffer in winter; diesel more than petrol

- diesels take longer to warm up and this time to warm up is increased in winter

- so... when fuel is cold it doesnt generate enough heat (power) so more fuel is required to get the same power

- at this point the engine is running less efficiently, more fuel is required for combustion mixture which includes air

- cool dense air common in winter months and since dense air is heavier more fuel can be pulled in which maybe good for performance but bad for economy.

- and finally the last possible reason consumption drops is cool dense air being heavier can effect the areodynamics of the car as it travels by increasing resistance which in turn requires more fuel to achieve the same power

RE: 335d

I am aware of how quick the 335d is on paper and i've seen these on the road; in particular this one i mentioned. Scenario being i noticed the driver overtaking quite a lot of cars behind me then finally pulling in right behind me as he was unable to get past me + truck infront now. At next roundabout road ahead is clear so i overtake slow moving truck on exit, he copies eventually, after checking road ahead is clear. I'm going quick enough now that he doesnt overtake me or see's no point. Until we come to the next roundabout. Clearly i see he's keeping up with my speed but at a safe distance (not tailgating) judging by the last 1mile. So i cross this big roundabout in 3rd gear at about 28mph. I see him lined up to the right of me and i know he's going to try and use the generous filter lane off this big round about to get past me. I know i'm doing 30mph in 3rd, traction control off and 2000rpm on the needle so i floor it, as does he.

Its over in seconds, i can see in my side mirror he's creeping past me but he's struggling because we are side by side, he's now on the wrong side of the road and in 3/400 yards theres a slight left hand corner and now theres cars coming. At this point he needs to get back over so i ease off and he practically takes away my front bumper its that close but he's still accelerating and flies off into the distance.

So in this scenario i can't see that in his auto he's going to be tootling along in 6th coming off a roundabout overtaking me with urgency as there is oncoming traffic. He was about half his car length behind me coming off the roundabout, looking in my mirrors he's easing past me but his overtake was very long and drawn out and as i said it took that long he was running out of road and oncoming traffic coming. Compare it to being in a 1.1ltr yaris trying to overtake a lorry.

I dont care what the 0-60 time is but once i'm in 3rd gear its quite surprising to some.

[Bry]

I would expect the Auris might be able to keep within reach on a VERY short burst, (on paper its little different to Avensis T180, yet much lighter) but as already said and assuming you have a T180 that does what it says on the tin? a 335d driven properly would be over 2 seconds ahead at 60 mph and thats after only 6 seconds, that is a HELL of a lot! AND MORE TO TOPIC, THE 335 would most likely be getting better consumption too with another 100BHP available!!! (or that should be 130+ as the T180 seems to produce only 120??)There is no comparison between these cars, but not with price either! another 15K for the BMW, The T180'ss I have driven are usually struggling to hold on to 130 Mondeos if you get caught in death before life, ie turbo lag zone, not difficult with the stupendoes tall gearing.

I don't like the idea of racing vehicles out of roundabouts etc, can be very dangerous, especially when senseless Adrenalin kicks in! but I had a dual carriageway entrance drag with a Mondeo ST 155 2.2 recently, I wrung every ounce out of my T180, but he embarrassed me, with a grin as he passed! the only time I could hold him was when using the slightly wider upper end of my power band while he had to change more rapidly through gears, once he was on cam again he slowly pulled away in every gear, probably got 3 car lengths by the time speeds were getting excessive for me and again that is a big difference, I class an ST155 as definitely faster than a T180. My other complete embarrassment was a Leon TDI Cupra, he blew me away, but convinced he was "tuning boxed"

Re The temperature of the fuel, unless cold enough to wax will make absolutely no difference to fuel economy, especially by the time it reaches the injectors at 1500+ BAR ! There will be a small cost during injection !Removed!/cold start phase + fast idle (to warm that stupid DPF up) but negligible on 3g common rail.

AND, the colder the air the better, why do you think they go to the bother of trying to cool it as much as possible before it enters the manifold, "INTER-COOLER" you want the air as cold and dense as possible, The turbo compression heats the air so the intecooler attempts to re cool it. More power/torque from same engine is more efficient if used to advantage.

I have ran through two winters and over 1 summer, 40K miles, there is absolutely no difference between them on my fuel consumption. We hardly get winters. I would expect that with A/C on in summer the contrary more likely?

I have seen other statements like gear oil and drag... WHAT???

lets face it, 99% of owners cant be wrong, the T180 is, in respect to claims, a "Duffer" I try to satisfy myself that its a pleasant car, is very slightly quicker than a 2.2 T spirit but on the down side, cost to fuel economy through DPF makes it a economical and comparative performance based "never again for me"

[Bry]

OldSko01 has an Auris, I have looked at the Auris SR180 spec and although power/torque are identical to T180 the CO2 is higher on the Auris, doesn't add up, the Avensis is a much heavier car and like for like will release more CO2. I suspect the Auris (newer model) has a modified emmission system, and as the emmissions are up, probably less restrictive. Hence more achievable mpg (although, still falls short) and peformance. The paper performance is only 1/2 a second quicker to 60 with a slower top speed, could be they lowered the gearing? The claimed mpg is identical to my T180 tourer at 45.6, again you would expect more compaired to the Avensis. I suspect some kept secret changes are present in the 180 version of the Auris??? I notice they dont seem to refer to it as a Dcat unlike the Avensis, If there is any truth in this, OldSko01 is probably experiencing pereformance somewhere near to what is claimed???

ALSO, it seems you can no longer opt for the 180 engine in the Avensis Tourer, but still can in the saloon/hatchback, very suspicious???

[Adyone]

:o

Maybe Toyota measured the torque and bhp whilst the engine was on a test bed/dynomometer, without the drag of an alternator, air pump (for brake vacuum), air con conpressor, water pump etc.

Many motor manufacturers have done this in the past.

Rover used to quote 180 bhp for the V8 but that was without any ancillaries to sap power fromt the engine, in reality it probably made about 150 bhp.

Anyway, we've just built a V8 Aston Martin 6.1L engine with our EFI and tested it on our dyno today at just over 500 bhp and 477 ftlbs of torque, the owner will be pleased :)

Ady

[OldSkoO1]

There must be something wrong with the avensis t180 or your t180 if its only outputting that.

I know of 2 guys who have had their t180 auris' dyno-ed and they both came out at 154 and 155 whp; pretty much bang on what it should be.

Then they both ran similar chips enabled on the dyno and got 180 whp... so the cars running at about 210bhp and nearly 500nm of torque.

They seem to be performing properly and even though they are lighter it does seem odd.

The Auris t180 is very similar to the 120d bmw and i know, those are v.fast and are rated slightly quicker than t180, same power output but slightly lighter. Chipped T180 is v.similar as 123d which is an absolute monster.

If i were you i would seriously look at this with a dealer but would defiantly contact a specialist dyno garage specifically for diesels and check that their setup can correctly benchmark them. Some can't measure all diesel characteristics. Also traction control off defiantly gives me move shift through all gears regardless of road conditions.

[Bry]

Irrespective of what a dyno says, I know what 180HP feels like and these (driven a few, all the same) do not produce any where near what Toyata claims, combined with 15% reducton in fuel economy, a rip off !!!

[Groovy Mucker]

I know of 2 guys who have had their t180 auris' dyno-ed and they both came out at 154 and 155 whp; pretty much bang on what it should be.

Oldskool, which chips? At the moment, I'm happy with mine, but I might want to add some chilli at some point in the future.

[grapet]

Going back to the poster who raved about the Subaru. Most reviews I have read noticed the thirsty diesel engine 33mph, poor trim, tight rear leg room and wide gearbox ratios. I am getting over 40mph with my toyota, and yes compared to a VW or BMW it is noisier inside the cab, however my mate has a VW and it spends most of its time in the garage, and the BMW is just too expensive (also far higher insurance) for what you get. As for the wiper sensitivity, again I am not too keen and wish I could turn it off but my wife thinks it is great....!

[matty2767]

you can turn the auto wipers off.

[Steve84]

I went upto the welsh coast other week and i run the tank has low has i dare. This aint normal for me. I was just seeing how low i could run with out running out. I then filled up the tank. i put in 58 litres. I had done 477 miles so i'd guess it would do about 490 miles if id run it dry. The computer only showed 413 miles when i i filled it up before this experiment. Once filled it showed 413 miles again. The computer recorded a 37.1 mpg. 58 litres is 12.75 gallons so 477/12.75=37.4. The computer is .3mpg out. I'm sorry toyota but 37.4 mpg out of a diesel is rubbish ok its a 2.2 with a dpf and 180bhp but i'd expect at least mid 40's. On the plus side tho i drove a 2.2 mondeo and that was only doing 33mpg amd i've drove a 2.2 150 avensis and that was doing 39mpg. This is diesel is so expensive and i'm getting worse mpg than my 1.8 vvt-i avensis, i've got more power but i'm paying a big price for it has are many other t180 owners. The car is 2006 56 plate done 7600miles . The mpg has improved alot since i got the car in december with 2k on the clock. i could just manage low 30's but it has improved over time. The last 1200 mile or so i've seen no more improvment its stickin around 37mpg.

[Aamir2892]

1600 miles!

let it bed in properly first!

Yh u have got a point the engine's still fresh new and the engine needs to settle in first.

[Groovy Mucker]

And - on the plus side (admittedly not much) I had a great deal of fun on the way home tonight and still managed 31 mpg. I wouldn't have had anywhere near the mid-range acceleration with a petrol engine.