T180 Poor Mpg, Performance And Road Noise

[Bry]

I dont have any choice but to keep it longer, i cant afford the loss at the mo, but I am prepaired to change it at a loss and do look forward to seeing the back of this dissapointing car!

FACTS

The T180 can not get more than around 42 mpg NOW MATTER HOW YOU DRIVE IT OR WHATEVER FUEL YOU USE. A TRUE OVERALL AVERAGE OF 39MPG WITH MINE.

The T180 Does not perform anything like its claimed 177BHP

I have had many dozens of cars from most manufacturer THIS IS THE FIRST CAR, DIESEL OR PETROL THAT WILL NOT ACHIEVE MANUFACTURERS FIGURES (STUFF NOT MANUFACTURERS FIGURES, THEY BRAG ABOUT IT's ECONOMY IN THE BROCHURE!)

For info I have owned two TDCI Mondeo's and they both averaged around 48mpg and 55+ on a run, and I flogged the ar** of them, exactly what you would expect. I owned a VW powered Galaxy TDCI and it averaged a comfortable 44/45 mpg with more achievable + it weighs 2 ton. I owned a Diesel Honda CRV before this Guzzler and it averaged a comfortable 46 And like I said, all of my petrol's have and still do (we have 2) better than combined figure. NON DPF ENGINED CARS WILL ACHIEVE CLAIMED FIGURES UNLESS YOU HAVE A LEAD FOOT AND DRIVE AROUND TOWN ALL DAY.

The reason (boring I know) is DPF !!! You go on a long flat road, in still conditions, cruise at 50 mph and if a regenerative cycle is going on you will see the instant more constant 65 ish mpg drop regularly to about 33/35 for a few seconds then jump back up, THAT IS YOUR DIESEL BEING INJECTED INTO THE CYLINDER DURING EXHAUST STROKE TO INCINERATE THAT CRAZY FILTER. READ YOUR HANDBOOK, IT EVEN INFORMS YOU OF IT IN THERE IN NOT SO MANY WORDS!

I have tried the cruise on and off, also turned off the traction system, neither made any difference. For info my car has the latest software, new EGR, new injectors, starts first click and never emits any smoke.

I am convinced the re-generative process does not find its way onto the fuel test and your seeing results based on normal running, Impossible to achieve in the real world as you cannot stop the regen occuring, not that you would want to unless unless you remove the DPF as when causing back pressure through blocking with soot, you will have your con rods joining the radiator through the side of the block!

My mate has just got a new A3 Sport 170, He is keeping me informed, has covered only 1700 miles up to now and averaged 45mpg, he reset the computer the day he got it, as he knows all about this and he doesn't crawl around or believe in running in Diesels. He was considering a T180 Auris, but thought better of it, somehow think I would rather have the Audi!

I know what your saying - if you drive on the m-way and stick to 70 you will get around 41mpg. The t180 isn't great on economy above 60mph.

But as you keep saying it is the DPF. This toyota won an award for being the greenest diesel in its class which is down to the exhaust gas regeneration and the DPF soot trap which burns it off with diesel so it doesn't smoke.

No matter how much you say DPF it wont go away. The only thing that will change is if they reduce the amount of diesel injected by the 5th injector OR you sell the car and get another one.

Either way in a few years maybe even next year new guidelines are given to manufacturers to say that all new cars must make sure emissions are down to a certain level. Trade off is economy because the only current way to prevent soot is to burn it off and the only way to burn it off is to use diesel fuel.

EXACTLY! Apart from the regen cycle doesn't prevent soot, it incinerates at approx 700 degC the collected soot into ash. The overall effect taking wasted fuel into consideration is about as green as my ar**

The REAL COMPLAINT is, they have made no effort to warn people of this problem (massive due to fuel costs) They even brag about the 45.6 combined cycle in the brochure and I am totally convinced they know and knew that NOBODY could ever achieve this then continued to hide the truth, they deserve all the backlash they get!

I researched and found out for myself, as after many many dealer visits, no solution was offered, just a frown! My complaint was official with Toyota, they gave me a brand new T180 for a month to compare, IT WAS THE SAME

I have owned a few of the cars you mentioned and always achieved claimed mpg with them too.

Under 40 mpg from a small diesel is a joke! A Golf GTi 200bhp Petrol Turbo I had for a few weeks was getting 37/38 and went like stink. Petrol is also 15ppl cheaper! The Golf is also about the same price as an Auris 180, wouldn't take me long to decide which to buy!

[OldSkoO1]

Your slating it for a 4mpg loss - a bit harsh

I'm sorry but there is no way a GTI can do 38mpg on average, its more like 28mpg and the GTI's drop like a stone at higher speeds.

I got nearly 55mpg on the way home tonight; 20 miles of travelling. That dropped to 49mpg after 7 miles of stop start traffic light / roundabout town driving.

A GTI would give me 350 miles to a tank max

My t180 would give me 500 - and thats being a bit leniant compared to the golf.

My t180 is as quick - i know... i'm really not complaining.

It just seems your making the t180 seem terrible and other cars seem fantastic. Just turn off the MPG calculator and enjoy the car. If its really that bad still just sell it, even if you need to buy an older ford you will be MUCH much happier. It sounds like MPG is more important to you than anything else so you should really consider something around 130bhp range and diesel.

[Bry]

Your slating it for a 4mpg loss - a bit harsh

I'm sorry but there is no way a GTI can do 38mpg on average, its more like 28mpg and the GTI's drop like a stone at higher speeds.

I got nearly 55mpg on the way home tonight; 20 miles of travelling. That dropped to 49mpg after 7 miles of stop start traffic light / roundabout town driving.

A GTI would give me 350 miles to a tank max

My t180 would give me 500 - and thats being a bit leniant compared to the golf.

My t180 is as quick - i know... i'm really not complaining.

It just seems your making the t180 seem terrible and other cars seem fantastic. Just turn off the MPG calculator and enjoy the car. If its really that bad still just sell it, even if you need to buy an older ford you will be MUCH much happier. It sounds like MPG is more important to you than anything else so you should really consider something around 130bhp range and diesel.

Appreciate the car buying advice, think I am capable of choosing my own (at least I was till this one, long test drives will be the future norm)) I have probably had more cars than you have had hot dinners!

Getting a bit boring this:

4mpg??!! I average 39 ish thats 7mpg below, AVERAGE! Mostly steady long journeys. To compensate other owners need to average 53mpg and then I may just have a bad one, unfortunetly, apart from yours, mine seems to do better than a lot of other people who have posted on all T180 version postings, very low 30's common.

I averaged 38 comfortably out of a Golf GTi and 34 from my Leon Cupra, my other current car, a BMW 330i (232bhp) petrol, averages 33 and 40 easily on a run (similar to this T180, but twice as quick), the lowest ever in 2 years is 31 on a tankfull with a lot of town driving. Our old Mondeo 1.8 Verona (petrol) gets 40mpg comfortably. Keeping a check on MPG is the norm as my fuel account actually prints my average for the car and I have to justify my fuel claim! I used to do 60K per annum, 30K now. a 15% extra fuel bill than anticipated does not go down well!

I WOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH 39MPG IF THAT WAS THE OFFICIAL FIGURE AND I HAD MADE THE CHOICE TO BUY IT, BUT, I WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT IT, I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT A PETROL AND ENJOYED THE REFINEMENT AND SAVING OF 15PPL. I CANT ENJOY SOMETHING THAT A) CONSUMES EXCESSIVE FUEL AND B) IS NO QUICKER THAN A 130 VW/FORD etc I AM TOTALLY PI**** O** WITH IT AND £9k OFFERED OR IT, MEANS I AM STUCK WITH IT, THANKS VERY MUCH! Have you noticed Diesel costs £1.30 ppl £6 a gallon?

0-60 in over 8 seconds is not quick, an average family Avensis 2 litre petrol is only 1 second behind, calculate in the 15ppl and will end up easily just as economical. The Golf refered to is a second quicker and 16mph faster, but just as importantly, it will do what it says on the tin!

FOR INFO, all dyno tests of VW/Ford Diesels produce more power than claimed (Superchips Web Site)) the 130 actually puts down 140, the Ford Tdci, 142 compared to claimed 130, the only T180 we have had info on was 30 odd HP down on claimed! no surpise, as the fuel economy and performance go hand in hand, efficiency problem due to DPF. Thats why I have to strangle my T180 to go with Tdci's/PD's

FINALLY, We all have opinions, your happy with consumption being short of claimed, I ceratinly am not and judging by the original posting, neither is almost anyone else.

[OldSkoO1]

Your slating it for a 4mpg loss - a bit harsh

I'm sorry but there is no way a GTI can do 38mpg on average, its more like 28mpg and the GTI's drop like a stone at higher speeds.

I got nearly 55mpg on the way home tonight; 20 miles of travelling. That dropped to 49mpg after 7 miles of stop start traffic light / roundabout town driving.

A GTI would give me 350 miles to a tank max

My t180 would give me 500 - and thats being a bit leniant compared to the golf.

My t180 is as quick - i know... i'm really not complaining.

It just seems your making the t180 seem terrible and other cars seem fantastic. Just turn off the MPG calculator and enjoy the car. If its really that bad still just sell it, even if you need to buy an older ford you will be MUCH much happier. It sounds like MPG is more important to you than anything else so you should really consider something around 130bhp range and diesel.

Appreciate the car buying advice, think I am capable of choosing my own (at least I was till this one, long test drives will be the future norm)) I have probably had more cars than you have had hot dinners!

Getting a bit boring this:

4mpg??!! I average 39 ish thats 7mpg below, AVERAGE! Mostly steady long journeys. To compensate other owners need to average 53mpg and then I may just have a bad one, unfortunetly, apart from yours, mine seems to do better than a lot of other people who have posted on all T180 version postings, very low 30's common.

I averaged 38 comfortably out of a Golf GTi and 34 from my Leon Cupra, my other current car, a BMW 330i (232bhp) petrol, averages 33 and 40 easily on a run (similar to this T180, but twice as quick), the lowest ever in 2 years is 31 on a tankfull with a lot of town driving. Our old Mondeo 1.8 Verona (petrol) gets 40mpg comfortably. Keeping a check on MPG is the norm as my fuel account actually prints my average for the car and I have to justify my fuel claim! I used to do 60K per annum, 30K now. a 15% extra fuel bill than anticipated does not go down well!

I WOULD NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH 39MPG IF THAT WAS THE OFFICIAL FIGURE AND I HAD MADE THE CHOICE TO BUY IT, BUT, I WOULD NOT HAVE BOUGHT IT, I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT A PETROL AND ENJOYED THE REFINEMENT AND SAVING OF 15PPL. I CANT ENJOY SOMETHING THAT A) CONSUMES EXCESSIVE FUEL AND B) IS NO QUICKER THAN A 130 VW/FORD etc I AM TOTALLY PI**** O** WITH IT AND £9k OFFERED OR IT, MEANS I AM STUCK WITH IT, THANKS VERY MUCH! Have you noticed Diesel costs £1.30 ppl £6 a gallon?

0-60 in over 8 seconds is not quick, an average family Avensis 2 litre petrol is only 1 second behind, calculate in the 15ppl and will end up easily just as economical. The Golf refered to is a second quicker and 16mph faster, but just as importantly, it will do what it says on the tin!

FOR INFO, all dyno tests of VW/Ford Diesels produce more power than claimed (Superchips Web Site)) the 130 actually puts down 140, the Ford Tdci, 142 compared to claimed 130, the only T180 we have had info on was 30 odd HP down on claimed! no surpise, as the fuel economy and performance go hand in hand, efficiency problem due to DPF. Thats why I have to strangle my T180 to go with Tdci's/PD's

FINALLY, We all have opinions, your happy with consumption being short of claimed, I ceratinly am not and judging by the original posting, neither is almost anyone else.

ok i agree thats it for me on this one

[Groovy Mucker]

On my last tankful I averaged 47 mpg, brim-to-brim. That was a mixture of chugging and 60 and pressing on at 80 or so, and included a trip from Middlesbrough to Glasgow and back.

And, after 8 hours in the saddle (Satnav: "Well, you said 'shortest'; how was I to know it would be rush-hour?"), not a trace of back-ache.

Done 15,000 miles and the economy seems steadily to be improving.

[celica_tom]

ok i agree thats it for me on this one

I must admit, I get similar figures from my Auris. I've been happy with the MPG - it's not awesome, but pretty good for the performance I think.

So far, since week 2, averages have been consistently over 40mpg, never worse. It was 38mpg for week 1 of ownership, then improved, maybe things needed to bed in, or different fuel? (I've used only Asda fuel since week 2)

[mbrennan29]

agree with Oldsko01 there is no way your going to average 38mpg from a golf GTi. I have done an attachment recently at work where I had the pleasure to be driven around at high speed in lots of different high performance vehicles. One of this vehicles was a Golf GTi and it certainly did not average 38mpg, it was mid 20's if i remember rightly.

Seems to me that certain people are just trying to make the T180 look bad just because they dont know how to get the best from it. A few people on here now are posting proof that they are achieving the average if not better from this engine, learn to use it properly and its easily achieved.

[OldSkoO1]

ok i agree thats it for me on this one

I must admit, I get similar figures from my Auris. I've been happy with the MPG - it's not awesome, but pretty good for the performance I think.

So far, since week 2, averages have been consistently over 40mpg, never worse. It was 38mpg for week 1 of ownership, then improved, maybe things needed to bed in, or different fuel? (I've used only Asda fuel since week 2)

I'm not sure if its possible for you Tom, but Shell is a very very good fuel; better than asda and maybe only 1p more expensive - around here at least anyway.

Diesel extra consistently gives slighter higher economy and has a mild amount of additives which helps keep your engine and oil cleaner. Big problems with diesel is the amount of soot. Soot in your oil reduces its ability to lubricate well and dissipate heat especially from the turbo. Oil is still very resilient but it does get black very quickly. Soot and blockages can cause all sorts of problems with diesel cars so it is preferable that you feed your car good fuel and keep the oil in good condition and obviously accurate servicing.

A bit of welly every other day also helps to blow the soot through :)

Every little helps really. This is only my philosophy though.

[celica_tom]

Every little helps really. This is only my philosophy though.

Maybe you should use tesco fuel then OS??!! :lol:

Sadly, there are no Shell stations in my town or anywhere near. I could try that BP Ultimate stuff, but it is 10p a litre more!! I could get some millers additive I guess and whack that in with the ASDA gear?

[matty2767]

as a comparison i just filled up my 150 and got 41mpg. i dont think i have ever got high 40s it is always around 45 ltrs for 420 ish miles. and i use normal bp fuel

[Bry]

agree with Oldsko01 there is no way your going to average 38mpg from a golf GTi. I have done an attachment recently at work where I had the pleasure to be driven around at high speed in lots of different high performance vehicles. One of this vehicles was a Golf GTi and it certainly did not average 38mpg, it was mid 20's if i remember rightly.

Seems to me that certain people are just trying to make the T180 look bad just because they dont know how to get the best from it. A few people on here now are posting proof that they are achieving the average if not better from this engine, learn to use it properly and its easily achieved.

Firstly, Why would I want to make a T180 look worse than it is, I bought one with my own money and am totally pis*** O** with it! It is a very average, underachieving car, apart from this very late flurry of people who seem happy, all others on Auris and Rav4 postings along with many Lexus posting all over the place are complaining about the same crap fuel economy and dissapointing performance, THERE IS A PROBLEM FINAL.

Would you care to tell me how to use it properly??? I have driven millions of miles and never had this problem before with any other car, I honestly didn't know or read in the handbook I need to learn how to use it properly?

Secondly, I have actually used a 2.0 TFSI, have you? and i averaged 38mpg repeat 38mpg, granted I wasn't thrashing it, I was driving it in exactly the same manner I drive my T180! Unless you are the Stig and on a track, you could not get one down to 20's? and if you did, I would have no doubt a T180 driven similarly would be right down there with it, but petrol is 15ppl cheaper and the GTi is a dam site faster and vastly more sort after! ie worth a hell of a lot more than 35% of cost after 18months!

I have tried all driving methods and tried and tried again plus another 100 times and never got higher Than absolute best of 44mpg and that was a non stop 300 mile journey at less than 65 mph! Oh that is with two different Avensis T180's!

Re Fuel....The worst fuel consumption I got, sorry, even more worse than normal, is V power about 37, Shell extra 39, the best was with Sainsburys City Diesel 44!

[Groovy Mucker]

Bry

A picture to help you relax.

[avensis56]

agree with Oldsko01 there is no way your going to average 38mpg from a golf GTi. I have done an attachment recently at work where I had the pleasure to be driven around at high speed in lots of different high performance vehicles. One of this vehicles was a Golf GTi and it certainly did not average 38mpg, it was mid 20's if i remember rightly.

Seems to me that certain people are just trying to make the T180 look bad just because they dont know how to get the best from it. A few people on here now are posting proof that they are achieving the average if not better from this engine, learn to use it properly and its easily achieved.

Firstly, Why would I want to make a T180 look worse than it is, I bought one with my own money and am totally pis*** O** with it! It is a very average, underachieving car, apart from this very late flurry of people who seem happy, all others on Auris and Rav4 postings along with many Lexus posting all over the place are complaining about the same crap fuel economy and dissapointing performance, THERE IS A PROBLEM FINAL.

Would you care to tell me how to use it properly??? I have driven millions of miles and never had this problem before with any other car, I honestly didn't know or read in the handbook I need to learn how to use it properly?

Secondly, I have actually used a 2.0 TFSI, have you? and i averaged 38mpg repeat 38mpg, granted I wasn't thrashing it, I was driving it in exactly the same manner I drive my T180! Unless you are the Stig and on a track, you could not get one down to 20's? and if you did, I would have no doubt a T180 driven similarly would be right down there with it, but petrol is 15ppl cheaper and the GTi is a dam site faster and vastly more sort after! ie worth a hell of a lot more than 35% of cost after 18months!

I have tried all driving methods and tried and tried again plus another 100 times and never got higher Than absolute best of 44mpg and that was a non stop 300 mile journey at less than 65 mph! Oh that is with two different Avensis T180's!

Re Fuel....The worst fuel consumption I got, sorry, even more worse than normal, is V power about 37, Shell extra 39, the best was with Sainsburys City Diesel 44!

Bry

I am on your side on this one i HAD a 2006 t-3x 2.0 d4d, which i suffered crazy depreciation i got £9000 after just 12 months, i sold the car because i had so many problems with it. Toyota customer service were just not interested in my problems,they just go on about how its under warranty and its not costing me any money.The car was bought on the promise of reliability but it never lived up to it.I now drive a volvo s40 2.0 d this is a vastly superior car and it goes better than the toyota and it returns the published mpg of 50mpg. Bite the bullet as i did and get rid of this heap you will be better off in the long run. :D :D

[mbrennan29]

agree with Oldsko01 there is no way your going to average 38mpg from a golf GTi. I have done an attachment recently at work where I had the pleasure to be driven around at high speed in lots of different high performance vehicles. One of this vehicles was a Golf GTi and it certainly did not average 38mpg, it was mid 20's if i remember rightly.

Seems to me that certain people are just trying to make the T180 look bad just because they dont know how to get the best from it. A few people on here now are posting proof that they are achieving the average if not better from this engine, learn to use it properly and its easily achieved.

Firstly, Why would I want to make a T180 look worse than it is, I bought one with my own money and am totally pis*** O** with it! It is a very average, underachieving car, apart from this very late flurry of people who seem happy, all others on Auris and Rav4 postings along with many Lexus posting all over the place are complaining about the same crap fuel economy and dissapointing performance, THERE IS A PROBLEM FINAL.

Would you care to tell me how to use it properly??? I have driven millions of miles and never had this problem before with any other car, I honestly didn't know or read in the handbook I need to learn how to use it properly?

Secondly, I have actually used a 2.0 TFSI, have you? and i averaged 38mpg repeat 38mpg, granted I wasn't thrashing it, I was driving it in exactly the same manner I drive my T180! Unless you are the Stig and on a track, you could not get one down to 20's? and if you did, I would have no doubt a T180 driven similarly would be right down there with it, but petrol is 15ppl cheaper and the GTi is a dam site faster and vastly more sort after! ie worth a hell of a lot more than 35% of cost after 18months!

I have tried all driving methods and tried and tried again plus another 100 times and never got higher Than absolute best of 44mpg and that was a non stop 300 mile journey at less than 65 mph! Oh that is with two different Avensis T180's!

Re Fuel....The worst fuel consumption I got, sorry, even more worse than normal, is V power about 37, Shell extra 39, the best was with Sainsburys City Diesel 44!

I don't seem to recall naming anyone in my post, what makes you think it was aimed at you??

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you how to drive if as you claim you have driven MILLIONS of miles.

Re the Golf, as I have already said NO I haven't driven one, however I was a passenger in one at work recently, it was a 2.0 gti with a DSG gearbox (which gives better consumption than a manual so i believe) the average consumption was mid 20's when i asked at the end of the shift. The driver is definately not the stig and we certainly weren't on a track. I also would disagree that the golf is a dam site faster. In a straight line from standstill yes i'll have it, but once both are moving side by side i doubt there would be much if anything in it to be honest. But hey what do i know, i've only driven hundreds of thousands of miles, not millions.

[Bry]

A

[Bry]

Bry

A picture to help you relax.

Thanks Groovy!!! Helps make me forget about crappy T180's!

That looks like heaven on earth i.e. Gods country, Teesdale or Weardale, the view towards Middleton in Teesdale?

[Groovy Mucker]

Tis indeed Teesdale, Bry.

Who needs mpg or bhp when you've got that view? (Wellllll ...)

[Bry]

Tis indeed Teesdale, Bry.

Who needs mpg or bhp when you've got that view? (Wellllll ...)

Your right! Forgot how lucky I am living around here,I am stuck with the bloomin thing anyway!

[Groovy Mucker]

I suppose we have plenty of time to research our next car purchase.

[Bry]

I suppose we have plenty of time to research our next car purchase.

A Toyota's not looking good! But I hear those Auris's are brilliant, I must try another as the one they gave me wasn't ;)

Probaly be two new models time by the time I recover from the losses of this one but a Passat, 320 or Mazda 6 are worth a 10000 mile test drive to see if they tell lies

shhhh, don't tell anyone but, I have been getting 46mpg this week!!!!! sticking to 1800 revs and 65mph max!!!!!!!!!!! But, my 1975 Fizzy got 100mpg at permanent full throttle and went nearly as fast with 4.5HP! :P

[Groovy Mucker]

By the time we can afford new cars, the Damn Pathetic Fuelstealer may have been improved.

I confess to having cast envious eyes at the 320d's fuel consumption figures. Bizarre, having BMW as the economical choice (though when you factor in purchase costs it becomes less of a good idea).

[GregT3-S]

Hi all had the T180 one week now and am impressed. The power is definatly there and have managed 41MPG (working from refill divided by milage).

[Bry]

Hi all had the T180 one week now and am impressed. The power is definatly there and have managed 41MPG (working from refill divided by milage).

Hi Greg, welcome, if your happy with 41mpg thats great. But, thats about all you can expect from a T180 and better than most.

[Bry]

By the time we can afford new cars, the Damn Pathetic Fuelstealer may have been improved.

I confess to having cast envious eyes at the 320d's fuel consumption figures. Bizarre, having BMW as the economical choice (though when you factor in purchase costs it becomes less of a good idea).

Groovy,

A friend of mine has just got the latest 320i petrol (190 odd HP) and has averaged 44mpg on his first 1200 miles of mostly urban driving, similar to where i average 39! He is finding the engine cutting at standstill strange though, I switch mine off anyway! OH and my glorious run didn't last, although I did set a new record of 44.4 on a tankful, but I have never in my life driven so pathetically!

The BM would cost a few grand more up front, but would be worth about 6K more than mine now and have saved thousands on fuel!

[Bry]

On the Auris site there is a posting referng to 5th gears test of the Auris T180, shock horror, the test car economy result was, "quote"....Fuel economy: 45.6mpg combined; test 32.5mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well Well Well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!