Front Disc Wear

[bothwell_buyer]

Thanks Anchorman.

Fantastic and knowledgeable post, learned a lot and cleared some myths that I believed.

keep up the good work.

You did though forget to mention what grade of shoe leather is required when experiencing complete brake loss... ;)

Cheers

John

As a matter of fact john, many a true word.............

The original brakes that were fitted to carts were indeed a boot fastened to a lever that was applied to the outer edge af a wagon wheel. The name brake shoe comes from this. Absolutely true.

And that was where Herbert Frood (who with a bit of imagination came up with the acronym ferodo from his name) made his fortune. He studies the antics of the cart men bringing stone from Buxton to the canal at Whaley Bridge and concluded that there was an opportunity!

Friction materials were born in 1897 in Combs, a small village near Chapel-en-le-Frith.

friction materials were used in the late 1700s by Aberdonians parting with a Bank of Scotland pound Note.

[bothwell_buyer]

Wudzy: Sutty says the dealer is lucky to make 1% therefore looking at all those flash outlets, lighting/ heating bills, flash company cars..

Hmmmm dont get me started........1M investment in showroom upgrade (compulsary) 50K insurance bill, computers, software licencing and digital line rental, you wouldnt believe those costs and add infinitum, oh and forgot the coffee and biscuits in the showroom :D: Never have margins been lower, 0% deals compulsary and paid for partly by the dealer. Sure we turnover millions of pounds, it is the only way to survive, but your ROI IS about 1% average. There is more profit selling hamburgers. Anybody wants a look at my management accounts are welcome to drop in for that free coffee. Fred in the shed pays his rent, heat light power and insurance, and anything else he can freely stick in his back pocket.

Sorry this is off thread and ranting but please dont associate a flash company car with everybody in the dealership waiting to rip you off. We have been selling Toyota for over 30 years and wouldnt be here today if we p****d people off everyday. By all means slate those doing a bad job, but dont tar us all with the same brush, as I have said before, feel free to make judgements, but only when you are in charge of the facts

Christine: I was checking the spec sheet for your discs earlier, the spec for models of your year RAV was 26mm, I havnt checked tonight, but the new discs may be superceeded to a new spec. If you PM the Reg number to me, I can check

Kingo

The T dealer to which I was referring no longer sells/deals in Toyota - which is just your point - they ripped off sufficient folk that customers just didn't go back. So the dealer moved on to sell other cars. at the site I refer, they must be onto their 5th dealership change. Krap is their name and their nature.

[Wudzy]

Hi Kingo, It was a general sweeping statement, but being of a Victor Meldrew's age with a "I Don't Believe It mentality with more than a spoon full of cynicism and the track record of the motor repair industry a double glazing salesman becomes a friend...... OK a bit OTT...just a bit....

Just a quick experience just 4 mths ago...Took my ford in for an oil change to a well known country wide company, suppose you could say they were a National company.......anyway the mechanic pointed out I required a new Power Steering Ram as it was leaking and would be an MOT failure and dangerous..now I knew it was a small leak from the base of the resvoir and required a small piece of hose and jubilee clip but was a bit of a sod to get at so was wating for better weather to do the job...I then asked was he sure and the reply was " YES and we can get the job done the next day if in stock as it was dangerous"....I then pointed out the true cause of the oil on the ram that had dripped from above....Guess what came next..."Oh "....I rest my case or as my mate might say "I Don't Believe It"

How many people would have got stung with the above.......loads

What a can of worms....It's just that Christine's experience, perhaps not a rip off in the true sense but, the garage went down the path of doing a job with out pointing out the none urgency of their diagnosis and I bet is the norm for most garages.

Still we have the charges for parts not needed until the true fault is found...what type of fault finding is that with a win win situation for the garage and a wallet crunching bill for the customer......

Crickey this soap box is high, must be my small mind..... :P

So Kingo wish there were more of your sort out there and then perhaps my faith in garages would be better. :) But I will still use the small experienced time served back street mechanic garage where I can or until the !Removed! car has a mouse or finger pad to drive it, then we will know it's fully computerised and the dealers will be rubbing their hands with their diagnostic plug in one hand and the credit card swipe machine in the other....OH no....there I go again.... old age....Argggggg

Cheers

John

PS Only my humble opinion, I am sure that loads of folk have nothing but praise for there garages

[anchorman]

One question, Anchorman ...

When the mountain downhill testing is carried out, what sort of backup braking is put into place 'just in case'

Cars are tested on the Grossglockner in Austria and trucks on the Rossfeld in Germany. In both cases the roads are hired and closed especially for the purpose. There are only arrester beds of gravel to cater for any bad decisions on the part of the development guys but we just blamed the chemists. Have a read at this article and in note the comment about the Yaris turning out to have brakes as good as a sports car!

http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/...ng_test_en.html

In the case of cars they do another performance test at the bottom to see how the brakes have reacted to the temperature. The truck brake pads were practically destroyed at the bottom and the only other test (other than controlling the vehicle to the bottom) was known as a drop test. For this high tech test the pads were removed and dropped onto a steel plate from a predetermined height (I can't remember exactly but I think it was 1 metre). If the material fell off the backplate it failed! The way we used to approach it was with an expanded steel mesh welded to the backplate which created a physical lock between the material and the backplate. Car pads are just spigoted and bonded to the backplate. This means that some of the material ouses through holes in the backplate during the pressing process. Good quality pads have a thermal underlayer. This is a layer of material right next to the backplate that blocks heat from getting at the adhesive.

I have said this before but I cannot over emphasise it. The pads that come on our RAVs from Japan are the best money can buy. Ferodo spent millions trying to get somewhere near the quality but never could - the Jap market is huge and anyone good enough could make many millions from the business. We could not match either the performance or the dimensional consistency. They could turn them out perfectly - each one a manufacturing masterpiece clone of the next. I firmly believe the Japanese are the masters of mass production. I went to Isuzu several times and we managed to sell them drum brake linings for knock down kits for Thailand (kits of light trucks that were assembled in Thailand) but the samples we sent for domestic and other export had them falling about like those smash potato men. They were not nearly good enough and they were our best shot.

Don't tell kingo but the Toyota pads are 8 times more expensive to make than pads made in Europe so a replacement set of jap pads for a RAV from Toyota has an uncharacteristically low mark up compared to say one of Ferodo's pads for an Avensis. It is the cost of those pads that stops the !Removed! from wiping up the European market or even more importantly the massive US market.

They'll be working on it.

Cheers

[Robert6920]

Fascinating, Anchorman! I was told a story of an exhaust system manufacturer (QH, I think it was) who produced a sample system as a bit for a Japanese car manufacturer (Honda?) They put their best guys on it, the sample was hand made to tolerances they knew they couldn't mass manufacture, but they went anyway. The Japanese took the sample away and brought it back the next day with 42 comments (all adverse), for improvements that had to be made before they would even consider it. And they congratulated QH, as it was the best they'd seen from the UK

I also remember seeing a clip of some Japanes workers making cigarette lighters, as part of a course I did years ago in Process Improvement. These guys were already producing lighters to far closer tolerances than the UK mfg could, but they were still beavering away, reducing the variations. Something to do with run time control (I don't do manufacturing, sorry!)

Kaizen, indeed

[bothwell_buyer]

Its all very well, but they haven't mastered the art of frying mars bars!! :lol:

[Parts-King]

Wudzy: Crickey this soap box is high, must be my small mind

No worries Wudzy, I too see the red mist rising on occasions and can't stop me fingers from replying :D:

Bothy: I never did try the deep fried Mars bar, but the deep fat fried Mutton pie goes down a treat wi a pint eh heavy!

Kingo

[christine rooks]

Wudzy: Sutty says the dealer is lucky to make 1% therefore looking at all those flash outlets, lighting/ heating bills, flash company cars..

Hmmmm dont get me started........1M investment in showroom upgrade (compulsary) 50K insurance bill, computers, software licencing and digital line rental, you wouldnt believe those costs and add infinitum, oh and forgot the coffee and biscuits in the showroom :D: Never have margins been lower, 0% deals compulsary and paid for partly by the dealer. Sure we turnover millions of pounds, it is the only way to survive, but your ROI IS about 1% average. There is more profit selling hamburgers. Anybody wants a look at my management accounts are welcome to drop in for that free coffee. Fred in the shed pays his rent, heat light power and insurance, and anything else he can freely stick in his back pocket.

Sorry this is off thread and ranting but please dont associate a flash company car with everybody in the dealership waiting to rip you off. We have been selling Toyota for over 30 years and wouldnt be here today if we p****d people off everyday. By all means slate those doing a bad job, but dont tar us all with the same brush, as I have said before, feel free to make judgements, but only when you are in charge of the facts

Christine: I was checking the spec sheet for your discs earlier, the spec for models of your year RAV was 26mm, I havnt checked tonight, but the new discs may be superceeded to a new spec. If you PM the Reg number to me, I can check

Kingo

Thanks for all your advice Kingo. The parts no for the discs is 43512-42032. Incidently I have not said anything about the pads. We were told they were "approx 85% worn". I've just had them measured and there is just under 6mm left on two of the discs and 6.5mm left on the other two. Is that 85% wear?

Cheers

Christine

[bothwell_buyer]

Well, I'm frightened to post my reply as the resident pad expert will be here around 2pm - trains allowing. I'd have thought, in my humble opinion that 6mm was adequate to operate brakes safely. But then who am I to comment - "I do so love Toyota dealers that take time to rip people off Brigade"

[Parts-King]

Christine

I have just measured a set of pads, only with the trusty Stanley tape measure, but a new set of pads is 12mm thick, to within a gnats nadge, :D: The discs are definately 26mm thick, so on that reckoning, your pads were 50% worn ish!

Kingo

[bothwell_buyer]

Christine

I have just measured a set of pads, only with the trusty Stanley tape measure, but a new set of pads is 12mm thick, to within a gnats nadge, :D: The discs are definately 26mm thick, so on that reckoning, your pads were 50% worn ish!

Kingo

Well done that man - must have been the raw egg breakfast but I knew you'd come up trumps!

[anchorman]

The minimum pad thickness is 1mm

85% of 12 is 10.2 so the pads should have had 1.8mm to be worn to that extent. They have generalised and most trusting people just go and cough up. Take your findings back and show them what you have found - it will be interesting!

Bothy

Without sounding too patronising (I will do that by buying you a noggin of nitrous at warrington) I have a very high regard for your opinion. Your "how to do things in a way that nobody else would think of" also amuses an otherwise grumpy old git.

Regards

[christine rooks]

The minimum pad thickness is 1mm

85% of 12 is 10.2 so the pads should have had 1.8mm to be worn to that extent. They have generalised and most trusting people just go and cough up. Take your findings back and show them what you have found - it will be interesting!

Bothy

Without sounding too patronising (I will do that by buying you a noggin of nitrous at warrington) I have a very high regard for your opinion. Your "how to do things in a way that nobody else would think of" also amuses an otherwise grumpy old git.

Regards

Well, we've confronted the garage but unfortunately or perhaps not, the manager responsible was away for the day and we were able to speak to the workshop controller who wrote the VSR, and wrote in "front pads approx 85% worn". When challenged that they were only around 50% worn he said it was easy to measure them when off the car but it was very difficult when on the car when surrounded by the caliper and the approx 85% figure was his judgement based on his experience and and he's been servicing cars for 18 years!!! Thank goodness he wasn't a BA servic mechanic. But he also said it was not him who said they needed changing he only reported the pad wear and also that WHEN the pads were changed we should be advised that the discs were worn (and shouldbe changed at that point). His opinion was that the pads and disc still had life in them and were not in urgent need of replacement (if that had been the case he would have sated that on the VSR) , only that they would need checking before the next MOT. It seem somebody higher up had taken his report and decided that I was an easy target to con for some extra sales income!!! We will be speaking to the manager responsible to find out who is the con merchant.

We are learning a lesson the hard way of being too trusting, because we have now found out by looking at the MOT certificate and my phone records that the car HAD ALREADY PASSED ITS MOT when the person from the garage (yet to ascertain who) phoned me to say there were problems with the brakes which could affect whether the car would pass an MOT and that they should be changed.We are gearing up to battle the manager.

Sorry for the epistle and there be more!!

[bjw]

The minimum pad thickness is 1mm

85% of 12 is 10.2 so the pads should have had 1.8mm to be worn to that extent. They have generalised and most trusting people just go and cough up. Take your findings back and show them what you have found - it will be interesting!

Bothy

Without sounding too patronising (I will do that by buying you a noggin of nitrous at warrington) I have a very high regard for your opinion. Your "how to do things in a way that nobody else would think of" also amuses an otherwise grumpy old git.

Regards

Well, we've confronted the garage but unfortunately or perhaps not, the manager responsible was away for the day and we were able to speak to the workshop controller who wrote the VSR, and wrote in "front pads approx 85% worn". When challenged that they were only around 50% worn he said it was easy to measure them when off the car but it was very difficult when on the car when surrounded by the caliper and the approx 85% figure was his judgement based on his experience and and he's been servicing cars for 18 years!!! Thank goodness he wasn't a BA servic mechanic. But he also said it was not him who said they needed changing he only reported the pad wear and also that WHEN the pads were changed we should be advised that the discs were worn (and shouldbe changed at that point). His opinion was that the pads and disc still had life in them and were not in urgent need of replacement (if that had been the case he would have sated that on the VSR) , only that they would need checking before the next MOT. It seem somebody higher up had taken his report and decided that I was an easy target to con for some extra sales income!!! We will be speaking to the manager responsible to find out who is the con merchant.

We are learning a lesson the hard way of being too trusting, because we have now found out by looking at the MOT certificate and my phone records that the car HAD ALREADY PASSED ITS MOT when the person from the garage (yet to ascertain who) phoned me to say there were problems with the brakes which could affect whether the car would pass an MOT and that they should be changed.We are gearing up to battle the manager.

Sorry for the epistle and there be more!!

Great stuff and well done for making a stand !!! don't let them get off the hook !!! the next time they may think twice

[Hoovie]

Hi Christine, This is an interesting situation and I hope you get satisfaction. One thing to clarify... When you say about the car had already passed the MOT and then you got a call saying it may not pass with its current set of pad and discs: When/Where was the MOT carried out time-wise compared to the time you got the warning call?

MOTs are tricky things in terms of using them as a statement of roadworthyness/quality/etc - it is a test of what the car is like at the time of testing and not any indication that it will be roadworthy, safe or MOT-worthy even just a day later.

Sounds like you have been ripped off though!

[bothwell_buyer]

With the new computerised MOT government system, a car has to be booked into a slot and must have a certain time spent checking it. I suspect this time may be on the certificate?? I should know as I have enough MOTs but they are in the bottom drawer of one of the filing cabinets and the dinner will come back up if I bend down...! Bgr it _ I went and got the MOT for the Punto done last week - it was MOTd at precisely 11.32 on 27 March 2008

The new MOT form includes a box for the " date/time"

Got em!!!

[Hoovie]

Of course, the downside of this computerisation is once the details are, they can never be changed - so the last MOT my HR-V had recorded the mileage as 555,xxx instead of 55,xxx due to finger trouble on the tester - I would have to explain one hell of a "is it clocked?" type question

[Parts-King]

Another snag of the new MOT is that once the car "Fails" the MOT, that info is passed straight to DVLA and you could "technically" be on your way home and your Reg number be picked up by an ANPR camera as having no MOT. With the old system, if you had a few days left on an old MOT you could run around until it expired, not anymore.

Kingo

[bothwell_buyer]

Another snag of the new MOT is that once the car "Fails" the MOT, that info is passed straight to DVLA and you could "technically" be on your way home and your Reg number be picked up by an ANPR camera as having no MOT. With the old system, if you had a few days left on an old MOT you could run around until it expired, not anymore.

Kingo

Its one of the benefits of having identical cars and a spare set of number plates B)

[christine rooks]

With the new computerised MOT government system, a car has to be booked into a slot and must have a certain time spent checking it. I suspect this time may be on the certificate?? I should know as I have enough MOTs but they are in the bottom drawer of one of the filing cabinets and the dinner will come back up if I bend down...! Bgr it _ I went and got the MOT for the Punto done last week - it was MOTd at precisely 11.32 on 27 March 2008

The new MOT form includes a box for the " date/time"

Got em!!!

The MOT certificate was timed at 10.10 on 25th March (and no advisory note was issued on the brakes or anything else - the MOT station is not the same as the Toyota servicing garage) and I took the phone call from the servicing garage at 12.14 on the 25th (call registers on mobiles can be helpful) in which the man said their was aproblem with the brakes and when I asked if it would fail the MOT if not rectified he replied it could do or word to that effeect. We now have the garage manager flapping.

[Hoovie]

Christine - I reckon you got their their attention all right!

They would have to say that the MOT tester was negligent in order to defend themselves!

I have usually had a car serviced prior to getting the MOT done, but following on from your experience, I think I may switch that round!

[desmond3623]

I find it truly incredible that "an expert" should describe 0.6mm as a gnats breath.

On most Toyotas from brand new disc to worn to limit is a mere 2.00 mm which means with 0.6mm you still have roughly one third of disc life left.

You are all being ripped off!

Get a £12.49 micrometer from Screwfix - dead easy to use and save yourselves a fortune.

[Smifyboy]

I'm with desmond !!!!

Many garages replace partially worn discs when they could be skimmed or left on. I have been in a skip in a prestige motor workshop and found 12 pairs of corroded discs in a skip - 90% of them had enough meat left on them for another 20-30k miles.

This is a problem throughout Europe not just the UK.

People get so hung up on health and safety that common sense has left the wayside. Let's not forget minimum thickness is a guideline set by the brake manufacturers. The guideline is set because brake performance MAY deterioate after this point - this serves two purposes:

1) Scare marketing - your brakes may fail if you don't change them now - buy more brake parts !!!

2) It's a caveat incase someone has an accident and the fault is found with the brakes.

But they are quite happy for you to drive round with a new set of pads on an old disc whilst they bed in. They may have only 40% contact with the disc when just fitted but drive carefully and you'll be alright !!! So you leave the garage with new brakes which are 60% less efficient when they were when you went in Only the British would accept that !!

The only real point you need to fit new discs is when your brake pads keep falling out the caliper if you drive carefully !!!

I do feel sorry for garages these days who have to hit outrageous targets set by parts suppliers, the parent companies and shareholders but quite often we pay for it as car owners.

Christine I hope your mission is a success, this is happening UK wide and it's about time someone took a stand. Good luck

[Fujisan]

The only real point you need to fit new discs is when your brake pads keep falling out the caliper if you drive carefully !!!

Glad you live a long way away from me!