New Clutch For '07 T180 And Mpg

[cc.gibson]

Hi all,

I have just received a call from my local Toyota dealership where I'd taken my T180 for a replacement rain sensor as the auto wipers didn't appear to be working. Not only are they replacing the rain sensor, the technician who drove it said the car (March 07) needed a new clutch. This was, according to them, a common problem with this engine (2.2. D-Cat) / clutch combination as the 'bite' was far too short! I had noticed this on the test drive of the car (liked the rest of the car so much i still bought it though!), but had managed to get the hang of it and had only stalled it once or twice since buying the car a few months back. I therefore have a few questions for you all?

Firstly, why did the Toyota dealership I bought the car from less than 2 months ago, who said, this is a 'feature' of this car and the same in all T810's, not replace the clutch before selling it to me? (incidently this is not the same dealer as I took the car to for the rain sensor)

Secondly, has anyone else had the clutch replaced because of this, or experienced a 'difficult' clutch in the T180?

And finally, could the clutch be in any way responsible for the MPG I have been getting (32-33 at best), even when driving incredibly conservatively and virtually free wheeling on any slopes! And before anyone asks, yes the MPG was calculated properly (i.e. not using the trip computer) over a long period.

Many thanks

[bothwell_buyer]

Are they doing it under warranty?

[cc.gibson]

Yeah, too right! I'd have been really kicking off if not! Won't name and shame the original supplier of the car who sold it with the 'feature', but RRG Rochdale are the ones putting things right for me! Dealt with them before for an MR2 and Celica and had very good service.

[bothwell_buyer]

Yeah, too right! I'd have been really kicking off if not! Won't name and shame the original supplier of the car who sold it with the 'feature', but RRG Rochdale are the ones putting things right for me! Dealt with them before for an MR2 and Celica and had very good service.

While they are at it, ask them about mpg - wonder if the tranmission is running as freely as it should if clutch is knackered and mpg high (I wouldn't know about the mpg as mine does around 21mpg petrol turbo.)

The landrover is diesel, but as I wouldn't attempt to drive more than 5 miles in it, its pointless looking at the diesel mpg of that - most of it goes out the back in unburnt fuel. I'm working on a way of condensing it and recycling it through the fuel tank.

[anchorman]

My clutch and the others I have driven have had a fierce take up. What I mean by that is although the clutch is smooth, there is a small amount of travel between it starting to bite and taking up the drive.

Normally a clutch with hydraulic operation like ours is considered self adjusting. When the clutch is new the bite point will be near the bottom and as the drive plate wears so the pressure plate will have further to travel in order to clamp it and the bite point will climb - eventually to the point where clutch slip occurs by only just resting your foot on the clutch. The hydraulic slave cylinder will accommodate this shift by just using less of its stroke. However, this can't happen on a 4.3 because the clutch bite point needs to remain fairly constant as there are 2 switches on the clutch pedal. One detects that you have started to release the pedal and is used to signal the hill assist control that it can release the brake. Moreover on the T180/XT5 it tells the smart entry system that the clutch is pressed and the engine can be started. The other signals the ECU to tell it the clutch pedal has returned to the off position and it will use that information to determin the vehicle is no longer coasting (it knows whether the gearbox is in gear by a neutral switch on the gearbox) and will adjust engine settings accordingly.

In order to maintain a predetermined clearance/stroke the vehicle has a very unusual pressure plate. The pressure plate is very special - I certainly haven't come accross one like it before. It automatically maintains the bite point by a spring ratchet arrangement within the diaphragm spring.

Now you know to some extent what goes on in there I will tell you what the specifications should be (all in mm). The distance from the top of the pedal to the underside of the dash;

211.1 - 221.1

Clutch pedal free play;

5.0 - 15mm

There should also be a bite point of 25mm from the floor OR MORE.

If your clutch falls within these specs I personally would ask them to let you monitor it (leave it alone!). You don't want that gearbox removing on a new car unless there is definitely something wrong because the chances are that other things will get disturbed and seals will get knocked about etc etc. If they persist ask for a go in another vehicle because from what you describe your clutch feels very similar to mine. In any case you have bought a new car and it shouldn't need such a major repair. They should give you a new one and let that go to the second hand car pool where people know they are not getting new.

Cheers

[bothwell_buyer]

Ah well - that's the morning shift back - time for my lunch then!!

Heard on the news here that one of the loose cows on the M73/M74 got run down by a train and killed. Not sure which line it was on as there are 2 lines nearby - the local Airdrie line and the main London line. Whichever it was must've made a mess of the Fillet dinner.

[rav4nrg]

My clutch and the others I have driven have had a fierce take up. What I mean by that is although the clutch is smooth, there is a small amount of travel between it starting to bite and taking up the drive.

Normally a clutch with hydraulic operation like ours is considered self adjusting. When the clutch is new the bite point will be near the bottom and as the drive plate wears so the pressure plate will have further to travel in order to clamp it and the bite point will climb - eventually to the point where clutch slip occurs by only just resting your foot on the clutch. The hydraulic slave cylinder will accommodate this shift by just using less of its stroke. However, this can't happen on a 4.3 because the clutch bite point needs to remain fairly constant as there are 2 switches on the clutch pedal. One detects that you have started to release the pedal and is used to signal the hill assist control that it can release the brake. Moreover on the T180/XT5 it tells the smart entry system that the clutch is pressed and the engine can be started. The other signals the ECU to tell it the clutch pedal has returned to the off position and it will use that information to determin the vehicle is no longer coasting (it knows whether the gearbox is in gear by a neutral switch on the gearbox) and will adjust engine settings accordingly.

In order to maintain a predetermined clearance/stroke the vehicle has a very unusual pressure plate. The pressure plate is very special - I certainly haven't come accross one like it before. It automatically maintains the bite point by a spring ratchet arrangement within the diaphragm spring.

Now you know to some extent what goes on in there I will tell you what the specifications should be (all in mm). The distance from the top of the pedal to the underside of the dash;

211.1 - 221.1

Clutch pedal free play;

5.0 - 15mm

There should also be a bite point of 25mm from the floor OR MORE.

If your clutch falls within these specs I personally would ask them to let you monitor it (leave it alone!). You don't want that gearbox removing on a new car unless there is definitely something wrong because the chances are that other things will get disturbed and seals will get knocked about etc etc. If they persist ask for a go in another vehicle because from what you describe your clutch feels very similar to mine. In any case you have bought a new car and it shouldn't need such a major repair. They should give you a new one and let that go to the second hand car pool where people know they are not getting new.

Cheers

Wow. Thanks for the info anchorman. I just had to log on just to say that.

My nrg's clutch feels the same.

But the other day whilst leaving gatwick to head back home, it felt like the gear stick linkage felt out and suddenly the vehicle was jsut revving continously. no matter which gear was selected.

My first thought was to think it was the clutch but I thought a clutch would wera gradually and not instantly. I must admit that the engine over the last four months has been giving a rough whirring noise as if major car problems were to be expected.

I tried the vehicle again and it drove ok for 10mins then the same thing.

Hope I'm not clutching at straws.. heh heh.. get it... ah ok... I thought that was good.. Any ideas please??

[Robert6920]

My clutch and the others I have driven have had a fierce take up. What I mean by that is although the clutch is smooth, there is a small amount of travel between it starting to bite and taking up the drive.

This is interesting Anchorman, on my (petrol) Rav4 the clutch bites a lot later than I'd have expected. It's whatever the opposite of "fierce" is - gentle...calm...relaxed??

[cc.gibson]

Thanks for all the info and help guys, they have already changed the clutch this morning / early afternoon and as they have to wait till tomorrow for the rain sensor it'll probably be Friday before I get to drive it again - but hopefully there'll be a noticable difference and I can tell you it's all been worth it - although from what the receptionist said when they informed me of this, it sounded like it was quite common and they have had quite a few done before (they had a clutch in stock just waiting for it!!!)

Will ask about the MPG before I collect it. With respect to Anchorman's reply about it being a new car, I bought it from a different North West Toyota dealership in January (i.e. not RRG where it currently is) but it was registered and owned by Toyota UK from March '07 (probably an ex-demo car!). So I assume that complaining about such a major repair will just end up the blame being sent back and forth between the 2 garages and Toyota and as it wasn't bought from new by me nothing'll happen!

Anyway, cheers again for the responses :D

[Manxrav]

CC, I only ever get 33 to 35 MPG in my T180. What must make clear is that overhere on Island we have NO motorways and although the road surfaces are really well kept up to ( unlike the UK) and we have alot of open-limit main roads I cannot improve on this figure. I don,t drive like a nutter either.

Clare

[anchorman]

rav4nrg

That sounds a bit different to me. It is possible for the clutch to disengage and then fail to follow back when you release the clutch pedal (did it feel lighter than usual when it was doing it?). That could be down to the master or slave cylinder sticking.

By the way your nrg has a different set-up altogether than a T180 - oh and by the way welcome to the club!

Robert

The VVTi has a different clutch than the diesels - rather more conventional. The drive plate transmits the torque through rubber bobbins and the take up is very smooth as a result. However the diesel would wreck it in no time so they have to beef things up for it. I can send you some info on it but you'll have to give me your email address (pm) as it comes on pdf files.

cc

I meant to tell you to ask Clare about hers as I remembered she wasn't over impressed with the mpg.

Please let us know about the clutch.

Regards

[bothwell_buyer]

My clutch and the others I have driven have had a fierce take up. What I mean by that is although the clutch is smooth, there is a small amount of travel between it starting to bite and taking up the drive.

This is interesting Anchorman, on my (petrol) Rav4 the clutch bites a lot later than I'd have expected. It's whatever the opposite of "fierce" is - gentle...calm...relaxed??

Knackered is the expression!

[rav4nrg]

B)

rav4nrg

That sounds a bit different to me. It is possible for the clutch to disengage and then fail to follow back when you release the clutch pedal (did it feel lighter than usual when it was doing it?). That could be down to the master or slave cylinder sticking.

By the way your nrg has a different set-up altogether than a T180 - oh and by the way welcome to the club!

Robert

The VVTi has a different clutch than the diesels - rather more conventional. The drive plate transmits the torque through rubber bobbins and the take up is very smooth as a result. However the diesel would wreck it in no time so they have to beef things up for it. I can send you some info on it but you'll have to give me your email address (pm) as it comes on pdf files.

cc

I meant to tell you to ask Clare about hers as I remembered she wasn't over impressed with the mpg.

Please let us know about the clutch.

Regards

B) Thanks for the welcome anchorman.

Its just not engaging any of the gears. But i'll keep you updated with what the mechanic says.

[sywy]

I don't think it's only Clare that's not overly impressed with the mpg from the T180. I get anywhere between 32-36mpg from mine, but usually towards the lower end. I think this is pretty normal, if a bit diappointing, for the T180, if you search back on previous threads about mpg.

[bomber06]

I don't think it's only Clare that's not overly impressed with the mpg from the T180. I get anywhere between 32-36mpg from mine, but usually towards the lower end. I think this is pretty normal, if a bit diappointing, for the T180, if you search back on previous threads about mpg.

I agree! I only get between 30-35 mpg. On motorway runs I can only expect to get around 29-30 doing 70-80 mph. Its a fantastic car but I might have contemplated a XTR/XT5 if I had known the realistic mpg and not followed Mr T's combined figures of 40 mpg.

[local hero]

I don't think it's only Clare that's not overly impressed with the mpg from the T180. I get anywhere between 32-36mpg from mine, but usually towards the lower end. I think this is pretty normal, if a bit diappointing, for the T180, if you search back on previous threads about mpg.

I agree! I only get between 30-35 mpg. On motorway runs I can only expect to get around 29-30 doing 70-80 mph. Its a fantastic car but I might have contemplated a XTR/XT5 if I had known the realistic mpg and not followed Mr T's combined figures of 40 mpg.

Are these figures your quoting what is showing on the computer or actual mpg, i ask because the difference on my Xt4 2.2 i have recently discovered can be anything up to 10 mpg out i'e I averaged 38 mpg over 1000 mls but my computer was showing 48mpg

[bomber06]

I don't think it's only Clare that's not overly impressed with the mpg from the T180. I get anywhere between 32-36mpg from mine, but usually towards the lower end. I think this is pretty normal, if a bit diappointing, for the T180, if you search back on previous threads about mpg.

I agree! I only get between 30-35 mpg. On motorway runs I can only expect to get around 29-30 doing 70-80 mph. Its a fantastic car but I might have contemplated a XTR/XT5 if I had known the realistic mpg and not followed Mr T's combined figures of 40 mpg.

Are these figures your quoting what is showing on the computer or actual mpg, i ask because the difference on my Xt4 2.2 i have recently discovered can be anything up to 10 mpg out i'e I averaged 38 mpg over 1000 mls but my computer was showing 48mpg

Yes, I have calculated the mpg by filling up and the mpg is about right give or take 1-2 mpg. Off a full tank only getting around 360 miles.

[cc.gibson]

Have just returned from the garage with the new clutch and rain sensor installed.

The new rain senor appears to work - nothing else to say on that one really.

However, the new clutch has changed the car totally (for the better I think!) Firstly it is a lot 'looser' than the old one and there is definatley a larger 'window' to allowing the change of gear to be much smoother. Secondly, the acceleration appears to have improved, but that could be that I've been driving the missus' 1.25 Fiesta for the last few days!! Also, although again this might be my imagination, doing the same journey with the new clutch has just averaged 40mpg (according to the trip computer so i guess the accuracy can be questioned) whereas the best I've ever had on the exact same journey before was 33mpg (again using the trip!). This is only a 40 mile round trip and the traffic conditions were the same as normal, and I know using the trip is very misleading but I'm still hopeful that this is a sign of things to come :D and I can now truly justify the move from petrol to diesel (especially as the price for diesel is now almost 10p more per litre that petrol!)

[anchorman]

Don't want to rain on your parade but if they cancelled the trip meter it will take a while to stabilise.

Glad it seems better though.

Cheers