Rav 4 T180 Starting Problems.

[Bugsey]

Hi, just wanted to know am i the only one who is having a bit of trouble in starting their T180. Last year it wouldnt start at all, had a orange light appear on the start button, together with an engine mamagement light on the instrument display. No matter how i tried , i couldnt start it. Called out the RAC and they couldnt start it either. Was put on a low loader and taken to the dealership. They replaced the ECU and a starter relay. Afterwards everything seemed ok, untill recently the engine would only start after 4 or 5 presses of the button, which was unusual, but in the mornings when the air temp is cool starts first time. Ive since returned to the dealership with this problem, they had the motor over night, but are saying their tec guys couldnt find any fault codes. They say it started firs time every time even in full sun............ wierd hey !!.

[shcm]

Just to eliminate the immobilisation as a potential source of the problem, I assume you're getting a green light every time now on the start button, when you press the clutch pedal to start?

[duncerduncs]

Bugsey

I don't think we've heard of this problem before, we've heard of people not being able to get into their cars!

Is it possible that there is something blocking the signal from key to car? Have you tried pressing the start button with the key next to it?

As a fellow T180 owner, I'd be grateful if you could keep us all informed.

[Bugsey]

Just to eliminate the immobilisation as a potential source of the problem, I assume you're getting a green light every time now on the start button, when you press the clutch pedal to start?

Hi there shcm, yes i have been getting the green light every time i depress the clutch pedal. The engine turns over but sometimes it doesnt start up.

[Bugsey]

Bugsey

I don't think we've heard of this problem before, we've heard of people not being able to get into their cars!

Is it possible that there is something blocking the signal from key to car? Have you tried pressing the start button with the key next to it?

As a fellow T180 owner, I'd be grateful if you could keep us all informed.

Hello duncerduncs,

I will certainly give it a go, but i have been keeping the key in my pocket, an empty pocket of that with no change in it, cant think of anything else blocking the signal.

[shcm]

Doesn't sound like it's immobilised.

Traditionally, a worn injection pump is a good candidate for warm starting problems, but this is common rail so no injection pump in that sense (still a fuel pump though).

Can be a whole heap of things causing the problem (e.g. fuel filter, pump, injectors, injector drive module, fuel pressure sensor.............) but will have to leave you in the hands of a mechanical expert e.g. Anchorman who will probably get close to the root cause quicker than anybody else.

In the meantime here's something sounding very daft to try:

Don't press the clutch pedal.

Press start button twice.

wait for the glow plug light to go out.

wait a few seconds (say 5 to 10) longer.

press the clutch (get green light).

press the start button to try and start.

See if it makes any difference.

[Bugsey]

Doesn't sound like it's immobilised.

Traditionally, a worn injection pump is a good candidate for warm starting problems, but this is common rail so no injection pump in that sense (still a fuel pump though).

Can be a whole heap of things causing the problem (e.g. fuel filter, pump, injectors, injector drive module, fuel pressure sensor.............) but will have to leave you in the hands of a mechanical expert e.g. Anchorman who will probably get close to the root cause quicker than anybody else.

In the meantime here's something sounding very daft to try:

Don't press the clutch pedal.

Press start button twice.

wait for the glow plug light to go out.

wait a few seconds (say 5 to 10) longer.

press the clutch (get green light).

press the start button to try and start.

See if it makes any difference.

Thanks for the advice shcm, sounds like youre a bit of a mechanic, what would that achive tho ?

[anchorman]

Luckily I kept a note on this one. In this case the dealer was changing everything on the electrical side but overlooked the fuel side of things. A quick test is when it won't start go out and pump the plunger on the fuel filter. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard to pump. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff - then try to start it. If it works report it to your dealer and get them to stop wasting time on electronics. In this case it was the fuel pipes drawing air;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...sult_type=posts

[chatman]

Luckily I kept a note on this one. In this case the dealer was changing everything on the electrical side but overlooked the fuel side of things. A quick test is when it won't start go out and pump the plunger on the fuel filter. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard to pump. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff - then try to start it. If it works report it to your dealer and get them to stop wasting time on electronics. In this case it was the fuel pipes drawing air;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...sult_type=posts

I can relate to this one.... Had my RAV 4.2 not start... took it back to garage (well on low loader) who fixed Fuel Pump issue before..and 3 weeks later (hopefully yours wont be this long) they diagnosed air leak in fuel line somewhere.... replaced lines and never had problem since.....

[local hero]

. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff

My wife has read this three times with a big smile on her face.. can't see why, can you explain it

[anchorman]

I thought that it might be taken as a double meaning while I was writing it but when I tried to think of a more suitable explanation flock all came to mind

[Bugsey]

Luckily I kept a note on this one. In this case the dealer was changing everything on the electrical side but overlooked the fuel side of things. A quick test is when it won't start go out and pump the plunger on the fuel filter. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard to pump. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff - then try to start it. If it works report it to your dealer and get them to stop wasting time on electronics. In this case it was the fuel pipes drawing air;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...sult_type=posts

hi anchorman, thanks for your advice, not wanting to sound a bit of a pillock but where would i be looking for this plunger on the fuel filter. Sorry mate.

[anchorman]

Luckily I kept a note on this one. In this case the dealer was changing everything on the electrical side but overlooked the fuel side of things. A quick test is when it won't start go out and pump the plunger on the fuel filter. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard to pump. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff - then try to start it. If it works report it to your dealer and get them to stop wasting time on electronics. In this case it was the fuel pipes drawing air;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...sult_type=posts

hi anchorman, thanks for your advice, not wanting to sound a bit of a pillock but where would i be looking for this plunger on the fuel filter. Sorry mate.

Its this plunger;

and its down there where the arrow is pointing;

[Fujisan]

Found a speck of dust

and its down there where the arrow is pointing;

Amazing, keep up the good work

[Bugsey]

Luckily I kept a note on this one. In this case the dealer was changing everything on the electrical side but overlooked the fuel side of things. A quick test is when it won't start go out and pump the plunger on the fuel filter. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard to pump. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff - then try to start it. If it works report it to your dealer and get them to stop wasting time on electronics. In this case it was the fuel pipes drawing air;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...sult_type=posts

hi anchorman, thanks for your advice, not wanting to sound a bit of a pillock but where would i be looking for this plunger on the fuel filter. Sorry mate.

Its this plunger;

and its down there where the arrow is pointing;

Thankyou anchorman, for taking the trouble of showing me what to try, now i know what to do, i wil see if thats the problem. I will keep you posted.

[Bugsey]

Luckily I kept a note on this one. In this case the dealer was changing everything on the electrical side but overlooked the fuel side of things. A quick test is when it won't start go out and pump the plunger on the fuel filter. It is OK for it to be slack for a couple of pumps but then it should go hard to pump. If it is more than that keep pumping and eventually it will go stiff - then try to start it. If it works report it to your dealer and get them to stop wasting time on electronics. In this case it was the fuel pipes drawing air;

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.p...sult_type=posts

hi anchorman, thanks for your advice, not wanting to sound a bit of a pillock but where would i be looking for this plunger on the fuel filter. Sorry mate.

Its this plunger;

and its down there where the arrow is pointing;

Thankyou anchorman, for taking the trouble of showing me what to try, now i know what to do, i wil see if thats the problem. I will keep you posted.

Hello anchorman....well i tried to pump the plunger on the fuel pump and it felt pretty stiff to me no slack there, when it wouldnt start again i tried pressing the start button without pressing the clutch, twice and waited for the glow plug light to go out, then waited 5-10 secs, depressed the clutch and hey presto it started. I dunno if it was coincidental or not. What do you think ?

[anchorman]

It sounds a strange question but did you pump it after it wouldn't start or before?

They should have done a continuity test on the glow plugs at the beginning. Was it done? I can give you the values if you want to take it to them or you can do it yourself if you have a digital multimeter?

[Bugsey]

It sounds a strange question but did you pump it after it wouldn't start or before?

They should have done a continuity test on the glow plugs at the beginning. Was it done? I can give you the values if you want to take it to them or you can do it yourself if you have a digital multimeter?

hello anchorman, I did pump it before it wouldnt start, but the motor had been stood over night, next time i will try it directly after it wont start to see if the results are different. As for the glow plug thing i can only trust that the dealer has checked this as standard. At the moment my motor seems to be starting first time every time, but the problem only came to light a couple of weeks ago when we had the heat wave, since then the temperature has droped. What i told the dealer was it seemed that the auto choke wasnt cutting in, would the T180 have one ?.

[anchorman]

Its a bit like toothache. If it isn't doing it then it can be very hard to find.

Your probably wasting your time doing anything while its starting OK.

The vehicle doesn't have a choke as such. The engine management computer uses lots of information from various sensors to determin how much fuel it must inject to make the engine run at its optimum. During cold running it will simply inject more fuel and as the engine warms up it will reduce the amount of fuel. The same computer controls the turbo and can vary the air/fuel ratio.

The very best situation is to have the car in the workshop when it is playing up. Normally these things are utterly reliable but in order to make them so refined they are also very complicated and your analogy to the auto choke could be caused by many things. However, the priciple of internal combustion is that it needs compression, fuel and a source of ignition. It is a near certainty that it has compression and in a diesel engine (compression ignition - in other words it is the extreme temperature caused by ignition that ignites the fuel) the ignition is taken care of. I am quite confident that during the warm spell the glow/heater plugs do little even after an overnight stand (they still need to be checked!) so the last thing is fuel. The are two aspects to the fuel being delivered. The first is physical. In order for the engine to run the fuel has to be present in the fuel rail which is right on the engine where the injectors are positioned ready to inject directly into the cylinder. The pressure at the rail is very high when the engine is running - about 22,000psi. There is a high pressure pump driven by the engine but it has to have something to pump! The fuel should stay in the fuel system no matter how long the engine does not run. A tiny air leak near the engine would allow it to run back by gravity to the tank. A tiny leak anywhere in a fuel pipe would prevent it from having that head of fuel ready to start the engine after a stand. It is these issues that you are testing by pumping the plunger on the filter. In other words you are checking that the injection system has something to inject.

The second aspect is down to the electronics/engine management. In this case the question is whether the electronic injectors are being asked to inject fuel even though it is ready and waiting to be injected. Whether they inject is down to the electronics and as described earlier this is a complicated system with many possible problems. It could be a duff sensor telling the computor that a condition exists when it doesn't or even a very slight faulty connection that is effected by temperature or humidity. You cannot always rely on the diagnostics of the system either but they usually throw up some sort of code if the problem is with engine management but not usually if there is a physical problem with fuel delivery. That is why I asked you to look at the physical side.

At the moment if it is behaving I suggest you don't worry about it too much. I know it will take some time before your confidence grows again but as the old saying goes - don't worry until you've got something to worry about! You never know it could have been some dodgy fuel or condensation on something electronic and it may never occur again. The thing to do for now is monitor it and take it as it comes.

I hope this helps!

[Bugsey]

Its a bit like toothache. If it isn't doing it then it can be very hard to find.

Your probably wasting your time doing anything while its starting OK.

The vehicle doesn't have a choke as such. The engine management computer uses lots of information from various sensors to determin how much fuel it must inject to make the engine run at its optimum. During cold running it will simply inject more fuel and as the engine warms up it will reduce the amount of fuel. The same computer controls the turbo and can vary the air/fuel ratio.

The very best situation is to have the car in the workshop when it is playing up. Normally these things are utterly reliable but in order to make them so refined they are also very complicated and your analogy to the auto choke could be caused by many things. However, the priciple of internal combustion is that it needs compression, fuel and a source of ignition. It is a near certainty that it has compression and in a diesel engine (compression ignition - in other words it is the extreme temperature caused by ignition that ignites the fuel) the ignition is taken care of. I am quite confident that during the warm spell the glow/heater plugs do little even after an overnight stand (they still need to be checked!) so the last thing is fuel. The are two aspects to the fuel being delivered. The first is physical. In order for the engine to run the fuel has to be present in the fuel rail which is right on the engine where the injectors are positioned ready to inject directly into the cylinder. The pressure at the rail is very high when the engine is running - about 22,000psi. There is a high pressure pump driven by the engine but it has to have something to pump! The fuel should stay in the fuel system no matter how long the engine does not run. A tiny air leak near the engine would allow it to run back by gravity to the tank. A tiny leak anywhere in a fuel pipe would prevent it from having that head of fuel ready to start the engine after a stand. It is these issues that you are testing by pumping the plunger on the filter. In other words you are checking that the injection system has something to inject.

The second aspect is down to the electronics/engine management. In this case the question is whether the electronic injectors are being asked to inject fuel even though it is ready and waiting to be injected. Whether they inject is down to the electronics and as described earlier this is a complicated system with many possible problems. It could be a duff sensor telling the computor that a condition exists when it doesn't or even a very slight faulty connection that is effected by temperature or humidity. You cannot always rely on the diagnostics of the system either but they usually throw up some sort of code if the problem is with engine management but not usually if there is a physical problem with fuel delivery. That is why I asked you to look at the physical side.

At the moment if it is behaving I suggest you don't worry about it too much. I know it will take some time before your confidence grows again but as the old saying goes - don't worry until you've got something to worry about! You never know it could have been some dodgy fuel or condensation on something electronic and it may never occur again. The thing to do for now is monitor it and take it as it comes.

I hope this helps!

Hi anchorman.......... Well thankyou once again for that very sound advice, all what you said has made sence like you say i will monitor the situation and if the problem re-occurs i will get the dealership to check the glow plugs and fuel pump side of things, as my motor is still under warrenty. In the mean time i shall enjoy driving a rather marvellous bit of kit. If i find the root of the problem i will keep you posted. Thanks again for your time.