T180 Run Flats Again

[Hoovie]

I was looking at the Toyota web tonight, and from what I can gather, the only RAV4 with a spare wheel is now the XT3!

all the rest either have a repair kit or the Run Flats.

[sywy]

I think this is a problem a lot of people, buying many different types of cars, from now on, should really consider before handing over their hard earned cash.

Granted the T180 with it's run flat system is at the top end of silly ideas but more and more, new cars routinely do not come with full size spare wheels or even skinny space saver spares, only a can of gunk and tiny compressor.

I think it would be wise for anybody buying a car (new or used) to ask searching questions about this provision for emergencies before buying.

Unfortunately, many people will only look at such things as power, economy, space......even colour when purchasing a car and only think about what happens when they get a flat, when they are sitting stranded by the side of the road.

All T180 owners have my sincere and deepest sympathies with regard to this problem.

I did ask the questions when I bought. I was told that if I had a flat, Toyota would just swap my whole wheel for another, so less than 30 mins off the road. I was told that I would not pay more than something like £110, depending on tread left, for this privelege!! However, Toyota decided to change the T&C's after I bought the car :censor: TBH, I probably would still have bought it, not knowing what I know now, as not having a spare does not bother me. My last car did not have a spare, and my wife's current car does not have one either. It's the restrictive practices that Toyota have employed that I'm not happy about. I want to change my tyre at any garage of my chosing, not just Mr. T's. And I don't want to have to pay a king's ransom for it, which is mainly their labour charge!! Do independent fitters charge labour on top of the tyre cost?!! However, in hindsight, I would have thought long and hard about buying a T180, if I knew how much hassle and (money!!) it would be to get a new tyre. My car was off the road for over 2 days when it needed a new tyre about a year ago.

[rav man]

Quite agree that if you can afford a £27 K car you are more likely to be able to afford the run flat tyres, and i also agree fully that in a few years your £4k car (or what you would expect to be worth £4K) May not be due to the tyres being so expensive.

Wsant the exhaust for a Peugeot 605 £2 grand or something ridiculous hence they weren't worth anything after a few years. Is that the fate of the 180 . I hope not, so come on Mr T sort this out please.

[Remoh1]

I was looking at the Toyota web tonight, and from what I can gather, the only RAV4 with a spare wheel is now the XT3!

all the rest either have a repair kit or the Run Flats.

if Mr T goes to run flats on all models this will be the first and the last RAV4 I ever own, the run flats are a ridiculous price and the toyota only fitting is outrageous

[Fujisan]

I did ask the questions when I bought. I was told that if I had a flat, Toyota would just swap my whole wheel for another, so less than 30 mins off the road. I was told that I would not pay more than something like £110, depending on tread left, for this privelege!! However, Toyota decided to change the T&C's after I bought the car

:(

I know it has been said before that this was a short term arrangement while equipment was installed and people trained but I still think it's terrible that people have to wait over night or travel long distances just to have a tyre changed!

Every Toyota garage should have a spare wheel in stock at all times just to get owners back on the road while their tyre is being changed!

It's the restrictive practices that Toyota have employed that I'm not happy about. I want to change my tyre at any garage of my chosing, not just Mr. T's.

Totally agree!

I was looking at the Toyota web tonight, and from what I can gather, the only RAV4 with a spare wheel is now the XT3!

all the rest either have a repair kit or the Run Flats.

if Mr T goes to run flats on all models this will be the first and the last RAV4 I ever own, the run flats are a ridiculous price and the toyota only fitting is outrageous

Can's of gunk, I guess I'll have to learn to live with because more and more cars of all makes are using them.

Run-flat tyres with stiff side walls (ie BMW or Mini), again I can live with that because they can be changed at any tyre depot.

The T180, sorry SR180, system is beyond belief and I would never accept it or anything like it!

[duncerduncs]

I think we've all been barking up the wrong tree by dumping all the blame on Toyota...

Having had problems with the run flats myself, I decided to do some digging!

As you know there are 2 types of run flats produced by Bridgestone, stiff side wall and support ring (more information can be found HERE). The stiff side wall has suffered criticism in the motoring press with the quality of the ride they produce and are better suited to cars with a lower tyre width. Support rings are perfect for SUVs, as they provide less limitations on ride quality and allow for some off road ability.

The problem is, the Rav 4 T/SR180 is the only car in Europe fitted with these tires! Unfortunately, the 2 systems require different machines to change them. I was told by an approved Bridgestone centre (which asked not to be named!) that they are unable to change these tires, as Bridgestone will not supply the equipment to them as we're the only car that has them!

The above is the reason for us having to go to Toyota to change our tires. Clearly Toyota took a risk in providing these, so far, unique tires to us (maybe they thought more car makers would use them on their SUVs, which would bring down the price and provide more outlets for us to use) and I'm sure privately they will admit it was a mistake. After all, the owners and dealers both hate them!

The advise I received from the Bridgestone man was to only pay for what you need. If your tires are simply worn you do not need a new support ring!

I'm not sure what we can really do, as far as I'm aware there are no stiff side wall tires made in the right size for our Rav, replacing them with normal tires could effect our warranty and Toyota say the price you pay for them "is a personal issue between the dealer and the owner"

[john1944]

Hey Guys, thanks to all of you for your responses. Certainly had a chuckle from some of them and agree, Ravs look better with a spare wheel on the back, but hey, ain't it nice to be able to open the back door up fully!!!! :D Got to admit, it's only now, as one of you kindly mentioned, that unless something is done, no one is going to want to buy a second hand T180, where you are paying out, by then, in excess of £1500 for a set of tyres. Will get in touch with Mr T direct, not one of his garage monkeys B). It maybe that we all need to start banging on the corporate HQ door, after all, Toyota generally are more atuned to their customers concerns, than other manufacturers, but just don't get me on the subject of Land Rover-Freelander/Discovery (total crock of s**t).

Will keep you posted as to any developments (like the idea of swapping over to normal tyres and carrying a spare in the boot, but they big 'ole wheels and come the weekend, boot gets full already!!!)

Best regards to all

John

As a matter of interest a 17 " spare wheel sits nicely in the boot, with the rear seats fully back. If you place it so that it is inner side up, the recess area can be used to secure items which would otherwise roll around. Cases and other bulky items can sit on top pf the wheel.

Saves a lot of fuss and mess in the event of a puncture.

[bomber06]

Just come across these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TOYOTA-RAV-4-07-PLAT...id=p3286.c0.m14

[Hoovie]

All but one tyre has a flat and being sold by a tyre company - so probably unrepairable be interesting to see if anyone is stupid oops ... smartenough to grab this 'bargain'

[anchorman]

It sounds like somebody has the courage to rid them and reduce the life cost of tyres to a fraction.

Duncs

I can see the reasons for Mr T fitting run flats. However, the use of components that ties a user to the manufacturer is frowned upon in the motor industry especially if the costs/profit are unregulated. Toyota have opted for a RF tyre that requires specialist equipment and components (tyre and ring) that are available exclusively through them. This gives them the opportunity to fund (via customers) all the equipment and the cost of the tyre and ring is at their fee will. There is no competition and nothing to regulate the price/profit and having dealt with exclusivity and patents in the motor industry I believe it is categorically unfair and possibly illegal.

It wants raising with monopolies and mergers commision and maybe some of you will get a fairer deal.

To summarise - it stinks.

[Fujisan]

Duncs, thank you for the link to the Bridgestone website. Very interesting.

I think you are right, Toyota went out on a limb with the support ring system and if any other manufacture was considering using this system and has monitored the situation, I am sure they are now considering alternatives!

I can't help feeling that T180 owners have been used as a test subject's for this idea, to see how it works in practice.

I still see no reason why if Toyota wanted run flat tyres on the T180 they could not ask Bridgestone for a stiff side wall tyre of a suitable size. Yes, the tyre size, width, profile etc., might have ended up different to the tyres presently fitted to T180's but as 99% of T180's are never going to go tramping across the wilderness, I don't think a lower profile tyre will really make that much difference.

Especially when you look at some of the "heavier and bigger" cars now fitted with stiff side walled tyres according to Bridgestones own website:

Model Fitted Since: Pattern Standard/Optional Notes

NISSAN GT-R 2007 POTENZA RE070R RFT Standard Standard depending on grade.

BMW X5 2007 DUELER H/L 400 RFT

DUELER H/P SPORT RFT Standard Standard or optional depending on grade.

LEXUS GS450 Hybrid 2006 Turanza ER33 Standard

Matsuda Roadster 2006 Potenza RE050 Optional

INFINITI FX35/45 2006 Potenza RE92 Optional

Volkswagen Golf 2006 Turanza ER300 Optional

Audi TT 2006 Potenza RE050 Optional

Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano 2006 Potenza RE050 Optional

BMW 3 Series 2005 Potenza RE050

Turanza ER300/EL42 Standard

LEXUS GS430 2005 Potenza RE040 Optional The pattern on the Turanza ER33 was changed in February 2006.

Volkswagen Passat 2005 Turanza ER300 Optional

BMW 1Series 2004 Potenza RE050

Turanza ER300 Standard

Ferrar 612 Scaglietti 2004 Potenza RE050 Optional

Maserati Quattroporte 2004 Potenza RE050 Optional

TOYOTA Sienna 2003 B380 Standard/Optional Standard or optional depending on grade.

BMW 5 Series 2003 Potenza RE050 Standard/Optional Standard or optional depending on grade.

BMW 6 Series 2003 Potenza RE050 Standard

BMW Z4 2002 Potenza RE050 Standard

BMW 7 Series 2002 Turanza ER42/EL42 Optional

LEXUS SC430 2001 Potenza RE040 Optional The pattern on the Turanza ER33 was changed in February 2006.

INFINIT Q45 2001 Turanza EL42 Standard Fitted on certain grades only.

BMW Z8 2000 Potenza RE040 Standard

Daihatsu Move Sloper 2000 B391 Optional

NISSAN Hyper mini 1999 Ecopia EP02 Standard Model discontinued in 2004, so supply has ceased.

The one car in that list that really stands out for me is the BMW X5, if stiff side walled tyres can work on the X5, they can work on T180's!

Toyota really have gone down a dead end with this idea and unfortunately it is the poor T180 owner's who are suffering!

[sywy]

I was told by an approved Bridgestone centre (which asked not to be named!) that they are unable to change these tires, as Bridgestone will not supply the equipment to them as we're the only car that has them!

I find that hard to believe!! If, as we are led to believe, the machines cost tens of thousands of pounds, then why would bridgstone refuse to accept the money? Conspiracy theory here!! Unless they have a special agreement with Toyota, prohibitting them to supply other garages!! Bridgestone are here to make money, and if someone wants to give then £20/30k or whatever for a couple of their machines, why would they refuse? It would get their (crappy!!) system 'out there' more, and they would obviously have to buy the tyres to go with them.

[MarsKy]

The T180 run-flats are now really peeving me off. I was driving around the Highlands and Islands of Scotland last week on holiday, and it was always in the back of my mind that if I got a puncture I wouldn't be anywhere near a Toyota dealer to get it fixed - and even if I were, it's a very costly new tyre setup and lost time. Care-free motoring, it was not. (Funny how I notice the smashed Bucky bottles at the side of the road more now).

And reading some links on Bridgestone's/ Toyota's intentions, and the situation now, it doesn't inspire confidence: http://www.ntda.co.uk/cms/index.php?option...7&Itemid=74 and http://www.bridgestone.eu/bfe/v/index.jsp?...0005101a10aRCRD There doesn't seem to be any other manufacturers (or models) using the support ring, and I can see Toyota dropping it in the future.

So, has anyone done a change over to normal tyres (and presumably with new alloys)? What setup did you buy? How is the TPMS disabled?

The 4 x run-flat tyres & alloys for sale on eBay looks a reasonable buy, especially if you intend keeping the T180 for a few years. But I'd rather be in control and get a conventional setup. And strapping a spare to my full-size dog-guard would work for me.

Incidentally, careful driving (55-65 mph and some 30mph town driving) got my 6000 mile T180, 45mpg over 150 miles, based on pump measurements and not the T180's trip computer.

[RaverT180]

Hi Guys,

Let's not forget that Toyota specifically approached Bridgestone to come up with a run flat tyre that had softer side walls to provide more comfort to their customers. The result unfortunately, is that all T180 drivers are now cursed with the expensive results of their initiative (eg: mini run flat tyre replacement £85).

Could not agree more with the comments concerning driving through Scotland, as a keen french carp angler, every time I have left the ferry at calais with in excess of 200 miles to my destination, I've crossed myself and prayed "please not a puncture now"!!!! Also, agree with the comments concerning bottles etc., my fiance is getting fed up walking in front of the car with a broom :D FYI I have written to the Toyota UK Head Office, customer services manager, stating all relevant facts regarding the disgraceful situation that previously loyal Toyota owners, who have purchased this particular top of the range model, now find themselves in. I have also directed them to this forum, so they can see the ground swell for themselves. Should I be honoured with a response, I will post it on this forum.

Best regards to all, keep out of the gutters!!!

John

[Bernie H]

Hi Guys,

Good to see such response. Lets keep it up, and hope that some good comes of it.

Now the bad news. I decided to keep to my word, and visited the local Ford dealer for a Kuga test drive.

Nice motor, comfortable drive, not quite as pokey as the T180, but hey, let it go for the moment.

Specced out to roughly the equiv of my car, comes to around £26,500 without side bars, front nudge bar, back bar, sun roof, but with "spare wheel" in the boot, so lose the storage under boot, but the freedom of choosing when and where to replace tyres. Such freedom of choice!!

Offered me £12,500 PX. So Mr T. How about residual value of reliable TOYOTA's. Lost over £15,500 in 25 months Down over 50%

I'm in deep shock and well, I don't quite know what to think.

Welcome comments, and advice as to what to do.

Cut losses and run, or ride out the storm hoping that Mr T sees the error of his ways, and doesn't hang us loyal T180 owners out to dry

[Taylor6971]

I am not sure if this link has been posted before or not, so I apologise if it is old news.

Basically Bridgestone are confirming that the T180 is a loner in testing the idea of the support ring . And my take on the article is that even back in 2006 they aren't committed to it themselves!

The article: http://www.ntda.co.uk/cms/index.php?option...7&Itemid=74

[sywy]

Bernie, did Ford give you any excuses why their offer was so low?

Maybe pretend you want another Toyota, and see what Mr. T offers you? I know it's going to be higher than Ford, but would be interested to see how much higher.

[chatman]

Hi Guys,

Let's not forget that Toyota specifically approached Bridgestone to come up with a run flat tyre that had softer side walls to provide more comfort to their customers. The result unfortunately, is that all T180 drivers are now cursed with the expensive results of their initiative (eg: mini run flat tyre replacement £85).

Could not agree more with the comments concerning driving through Scotland, as a keen french carp angler, every time I have left the ferry at calais with in excess of 200 miles to my destination, I've crossed myself and prayed "please not a puncture now"!!!! Also, agree with the comments concerning bottles etc., my fiance is getting fed up walking in front of the car with a broom :D FYI I have written to the Toyota UK Head Office, customer services manager, stating all relevant facts regarding the disgraceful situation that previously loyal Toyota owners, who have purchased this particular top of the range model, now find themselves in. I have also directed them to this forum, so they can see the ground swell for themselves. Should I be honoured with a response, I will post it on this forum.

Best regards to all, keep out of the gutters!!!

John

I suggest a letter also to Watchdog or some other media motoring organization...is in need here...

Will get this much needed air time and into the open for all to see....

[bomber06]

I have decided that its time for action I have just submitted my concerns/complaints to Watchdog from their website!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio...transport.shtml

Come on T180'ers enought talk lets try and get something done!!

[RaverT180]

I have decided that its time for action I have just submitted my concerns/complaints to Watchdog from their website!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio...transport.shtml

Come on T180'ers enought talk lets try and get something done!!

Hi Bomber, thanks for the link, have also written to watchdog.

(Come on guys, it only takes a couple of minutes using Bomber's link - the more of us complain, the better chance there is that it will get aired on tv, much to Toyota's embarrassment)

I got the usual customer satisfaction questionnaire through from my local Toyota garage, who fitted a new tyre for me last week. This has given me another opportunity to take a pop at the highway robbery we T180 owners are suffering at the hands of Toyota.

My next port of call is a letter to the Monopolies Commission, which will be supported by copies of the correspondence on this forum. If anyone has any objections, please let me know within the next 5 working days.

Best regards to all

John

(aka Victor Meldrew :D )

[flexy7]

!

[Hoovie]

I came across an article about the Toyota Tacoma - Pickup truck sold in US. Seems that some have rubbish chassis' and they rot prematurely. Toyota have extended the warranty to 15 years for that area and any trucks that are impacted they are buying back for the book price for "Excellent" Condition plus more - so any owners with this problem are more then happy.

I wonder that if the Run-Flats that the T180 do not take off and get used on other vehicles and the machinery needed to do refits does not get into the High Street tyre centres, if Toyota will end up doing something special, similar to the Tacoma and subsidising tyre replacements, or having strategic depots with wheel/tyre sets that the RAC can pick up and take out?

The cost of doing something like this for what will in terms of Toyota sales will be a tiny customer base would be miniscule for a company as wealthy as Toyota.

[anchorman]

Bernie

That price is the minimum that they can expect from auction and not necessarily a true valuation of your vehicle. However, you can expect that your vehicle has lost a considerable sum and as I've mentioned before I will be keeping mine for some time so that the average cost of ownership is reduced (if I had it valued for trade in now they would no doubt offer me a silly price) but well kept 4.2s are still bringing good prices - not far off the price offered to you. The business of swapping narly new cars is way beyond the means of my earnings and my savings will stay where they are!

I posted my thoughts on run flat tyres in another thread so won't go over the same ground here.

Regards

[Bernie H]

Hi all,

and thanks Anchorman, I guess that's what it boils down to, as I suspect that no-one wants to touch then now. BTW I have filled in the Watchdog link, so come on you lot. We just maybe able to force a change of heart. However, the Watchdog publicity could be a double edged sword, as then the T180 would really be dead in the water, as everyone and his uncle will be aware. Looks of sympathy abound, and goes driving with a donkey head on.

Anyway, have not investigated px with local dealer yet, but will do upon return from hols.

As I have been pursuing the Ford Kuga question, They are SOOOOO keen to do a deal, but after pricing the car up, and speccing it up to what I have on the RAV, guess what, it comes to about the same price as the T180, about £27,000 give or take. Does that make me feel better........ NO, or maybe a little.

Be back around the 21 July, as going to get some SUN

Happy Hols

Bern

[Fujisan]

Have a nice relaxing holiday Bernie