Poorly Rav

[mr wayne]

Hi Guys,

I posted here at the end of April about a noise my wife had heard when she put the car in gear, and a vibration she felt through the clutch pedal - suspected DMF on the way out. It hasn't happened since - no problems.

Well, the noise and vibration started again when she was almost home from work tonight - carried on driving it, noise got worse, reversed on to drive - oil dripping from underneath.

Hopefully, it will be the DMF, and will be replaced FOC - we'll have to see - need to try find out what to do tomorrow, as the car is still under 12 month warranty from the (non-Toyota) garage we bought it from, it's difficult to know where best to take it - I guess that garage would treat the DMF failure as wear and tear and say it wouldn't be covered, so i think Toyota will be the best bet.

Does anyone know if it's likely to have done any damage to the clutch? If not, is it worth having that replaced anyway while they've got it all in bits? Car has done around 45000 miles.

Also, when they take it all to bits for this work, do they have to strip it down far enough so it's also worth having the cambelt changed - i know it's not due for a while, but i just thought if it's all in bits anyway, then they might as well do it?

I'll keep you informed about what happens.

Cheers

Wayne

[bothwell_buyer]

I'd certainly get the clutch replaced whilst the lump is apart.

Is the cambelt (has it got a cambelt or chain? Can't remember) not at the opposite side of the engine??

[anchorman]

I think the same as bothy and there is no way I would have that lot down without changing the clutch at the same time. The timing belt is not at all linked to this job but while it is in the garage you could ask them if they'll discount having the 2 jobs done together even if you don't have to pay for the DMF side of the job.

Good luck

[mr wayne]

Thanks for the replies guys - taken on board.

Bit of an update ...

Spoke to the Toyota garage - not willing to commit what the problem might be - not surprised - they said we'd have to authorise them to take it all to bits to find out what's up, and if it turns out not to be the DMF, or indeed something wrong with the DMF that isn't actually covered by the extended warranty, then we'd have to pay anyway - he said it could be £1000 just for looking at it!

Spoke to the garage we bought it from (a Honda garage - sorry about the swearing!) - no-one there today who could give me any advice on what may or may not be covered by the warranty we have - should be someone there Monday who can.

Spoke to AA guy who came out - he said that he's not known a DMF failure linked with an oil leak, and so his feeling was that it wasn't the DMF - he wouldn't actually look at the car at all to try and help with diagnosis - he thought the oil might be engine oil, but i've checked the dipstick and it looks full.

Spoke to the independant garage i normally take my cars to - quite a distance away so they can't really come out and look - they said that it's possible that the DMF has disintegrated so much that it's gone through the gearbox casing, which is where the oil could be from. There advice was to speak to Honda to try find out what is covered under warranty.

So, i'm gonna do that Monday when there hopefully will be someone there that can give me some info.

Don't really like the sound of the DMF failing and going through the gearbox casing - don't know if that is the case, and if the DMF has failed in such a way that it would be covered by warranty, then the fix to the gearbox casing would also be fixed under warranty - dunno what would be involved - just a new gearbox casing, or a whole new gearbox!!?

Anyway - i'll keep you updated!

Wayne

[Lomond Lad]

Hi Wayne

When my DMF went there was no oil leakage at all...just loss of drive to the wheels. On the cam belt question, Toyota service manager recommended changing mine while the DMF and clutch were getting replaced as it was coming off anyway. They only charged about £25 for the belt with no labour as the cam belt was going back on when it was getting reassembled.

I would replace the belt if I was you as it'll save you money on the 50,000 or 60,000 mile service (can't remember the mileage change recommended) as you wouldn't need a belt again until about 95,000 miles.

[Lomond Lad]

Hi Wayne

When my DMF went there was no oil leakage at all...just loss of drive to the wheels. On the cam belt question, Toyota service manager recommended changing mine while the DMF and clutch were getting replaced as it was coming off anyway. They only charged about £25 for the belt with no labour as the cam belt was going back on when it was getting reassembled.

I would replace the belt if I was you as it'll save you money on the 50,000 or 60,000 mile service (can't remember the mileage change recommended) as you wouldn't need a belt again until about 95,000 miles.

Hi Wayne

Can you forget that last post of mine...I'm talking mince! It was the water pump that went two weeks after the DMF that the cam belt was done. I need a sleep!

[mr wayne]

Thanks for the info Lomond Lad.

We definitely haven't lost drive to the wheels - gearchanges were all ok, and drive was still fine when i drove to the house and put it on the drive.

I daren't drive it at all now i've seen the oil!

This gets stranger - wonder if it really isn't the DMF then - thought that'd be the only thing that explained the noise and the vibration through the clutch.

[chatman]

Thanks for the info Lomond Lad.

We definitely haven't lost drive to the wheels - gearchanges were all ok, and drive was still fine when i drove to the house and put it on the drive.

I daren't drive it at all now i've seen the oil!

This gets stranger - wonder if it really isn't the DMF then - thought that'd be the only thing that explained the noise and the vibration through the clutch.

If the DMF has gone you loose all drive and no gear change at all.... so no driving the RAV anywhere..As yours is still moveable I would say the DMF is fine...

Suspect about the oil though... The clutch would not cause that either...

[mr wayne]

Thanks Chatman.

Anyone any idea what it might be then?

Clanging/grinding noise when in gear - smoke - burning smell - bit of oil under the car - checked engine oil, looks full - could it be we've lost oil from the gearbox and it's seizing? - it was driving ok though - no problem at all changing gear - driving ok - not noticed any oil where it was parked every day - so maybe sudden loss of oil?

Confused, and worried!

Sounding like the only option is for it to go to the garage from where we bought it, and where we have the (probably rubbish) warranty, and let them diagnose whats wrong.

[anchorman]

Where is the oil dripping from?

If it is between the engine and box it sounds like oil may have come from the box input shaft and onto the clutch if it is further back it may be from the trasfer box area and dripping onto the exhaust.

When you go to determin what is under warranty with the dealer don't be afraid to dig your heels in and argue if necessary. If they refuse ultimately then a good local garage will be cheaper than a main dealer and nearly new transmissions are available imported from Japan. My local garage is run by two mature fully experienced mechanics and they charge £30 inc VAT. They will source the parts and fit them and it will work out cheaper than a main dealer even if you have to get it trailered to here.

Having said all this as an option, you might find everything works out OK with your warranty.

Good luck mate.

[mr wayne]

Update guys - sorry about the long post!

I was quite confident that my problem was the flywheel, and so believing that if indeed it was the flywheel, then it would be covered by the Toyota warranty extension, then I had the car lifted to my local Toyota dealer yesterday morning. Later that day, I received a phonecall from the dealer to tell me that if that was the problem, then it would not be covered as it is too new - i explained the information i'd read here, but it didn't really matter. I called Toyota Customer Relations and asked them about a warranty extension on the DMF - they asked when my car was registered - March 2004 - they said that it may be covered, depending on how it had failed. I called the Toyota dealer back to tell them what they said, and I was told that is the case - they said that if it was slipping, then it would be covered, but if the bolts had come loose, then it would not. As I told them we hadn't experience any slip on the clutch, and based on the noise, they said that they suspected it was the bolts, and wouldn't be covered. They said they needed me to authorise them to take it to bits to find out, and estimated it would cost around £1000 just to do this.

Furious! I think this is tantamount to blackmail! Once they've spent £1000 of my money finding out what the issue is, then they've basically got my balls cupped in their hand!

I spoke to my normal independant garage of choice - they reckoned they could diagnose if it was flywheel by just driving it, and also it shouldn't matter how the flywheel has failed - if it's failed, then it's failed. Anyway, I decided to remove the car from the Toyota dealer, and had it lifted to my garage this morning. They have since called me to confirm that they're certain it's the flywheel. Also, they think the oil leak is actually engine oil - they can't be sure until it's in bits, but they suspect the flywheel has disintegrated and punctured the engine sump. They have quoted me somewhere in the region of £2000 including vat, parts and labour (only half what Toyota charge) to fix it.

I asked them to contact the Honda garage I bought the car from about the warranty issue - they did - the guy they spoke to said they didn't think the warranty company would pay out for a flywheel failure, but they have asked them to send a full report when they have it in bits, and they will submit it to the warranty company.

I have since talked to Toyota Customer Relations again, explaining that the car is with an independant garage, and have been told that the flywheel has failed. They again said that the flywheel may be covered, but said that the work would have to be carried out by Toyota. I asked why it should matter - if the flywheel has failed, then that has nothing to do with whether it is repaired by Toyota or not - they said that the warranty extension is a goodwill loyalty offer. I asked if I could take the flywheel to a Toyota dealer for it to be inspected - they said I could try, as there might be a parts only warranty available, but again re-iterated that the work really had to be carried out by Toyota for the warranty. They also said it needed to have full service history - which it does - although not with Toyota.

I'm not a lawyer or anything like that, but surely this can't be right - in one breath they are acknowledging an issue with the flywheel, but then only provide a warranty extension, on the parts only, but only if the work is done by Toyota - what they give with one hand (the parts), they take away with the other (labour).

So now, i'm waiting for my mechanic to take my car to bits so we can found out the full extent of the damage. I will be following this up with Toyota, and also with the Honda warranty company if they say it's not covered, and also with the Honda garage itself, as i've had the car just under 6 months, and i think it's unreasonable for a fault like this to have happened on a 2004 44000 mile car.

I'm not holding my breath and have resigned myself to a £2000 repair bill.

[Parts-King]

If it comes to a new DMF and clutch, I can do you a full clutch and DMF, delivered to your door for £817.20 the retail value of those parts is £1018.27 (delivered) I have the parts in stock.

Kingo

[gasser]

Mr wayne just out of interest who is your local Mr T? Im in leeds and would like to know of a decent main dealer for future servicing repairs etc as i dont fancy using my local dealer (benfield) is there anywhere decent in west yorkshire?

[mr wayne]

If it comes to a new DMF and clutch, I can do you a full clutch and DMF, delivered to your door for £817.20 the retail value of those parts is £1018.27 (delivered) I have the parts in stock.

Kingo

Hi Kingo,

Is that including VAT?

And what price can you do a new Sump for, including VAT, delivered?

Thanks

Wayne

[mr wayne]

Mr wayne just out of interest who is your local Mr T? Im in leeds and would like to know of a decent main dealer for future servicing repairs etc as i dont fancy using my local dealer (benfield) is there anywhere decent in west yorkshire?

Hi gasser,

My local dealer is West Riding Toyota Bradford - I believe they have another dealership in Silsden (between Keighley and Skipton).

They're the only ones I know about.

I'm wouldn't like to recommend them, or not recommend them though - I haven't used them that much - you've seen my post here - probably not actually their fault to be fair - had issues with them before after a service regarding brakes on a 2 year old Corolla when they called my wife to say it needed pads and disks, and when questioned they said it just needed pads, and when i had it checked out at my normal garage, it didn't actually need any pads - although they did the clutch on my Supra quite a while ago and all seemed fine.

Wayne

[Hoovie]

gasser - there is a Dealer review section that may be worth looking at if you want to find yourself a proven dealer for the long run - can often pay to use one some way away if they are good, considering that hopefully you won't be to regular a visitor to them

Wayne - bad news on the DMF front . I feel for you and the others who have got this problem.

To me, it sounds like both the Honda Dealer selling you the car AND Toyota could have done a better job for you and chances there they will both have lost a lot of potential future customers with people who will be reading your experience and others you will be bound to tell first hand.

And if they saw you right, just think how many would have read that and thought "Wow! that is a company I can trust. Sure he had a problem, but they sorted it. I'll be trying them out for sure"

[anchorman]

Mr Wayne

This is a tricky one.

Under the normal terms of any manufacturers warranty (as published by the manufacturer - i.e. 3 years or 60k miles) they cannot legally insist that you have the servicing done by them, it only has to be done in accordance with the shedule. However, the extended DMF warranty is a concessionary or goodwill gesture and they can apply conditions to it.

This won't make you feel any better but other vehicles suffer far worse than Toyotas and in a lot of cases there is no concession - it is your problem. You are right though, the prospect of some FOC parts is a lure to the Toyota workshop and may not be any benefit when all the costs are considered.

Kingos price is a good one for OE parts if you want to get them for your repairer.

Good luck mate.

[shutty]

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