Older Cars.

[Fujisan]

This is a question and answer ripped from the Friday's Telegraph Motoring section Honest John column.

"To make rational purchases, it would be a good idea to know more about carbon footprints. Thanks to the Carbon Trust I have made progress on some projects, including wind farms, but I am getting in a tangle with my efforts to establish the "cradle to grave" figure for a Toyota Prius. I have tried Toyota and the SMMT, but without success.

G.P., Solihull

A Prius Battery pack is guaranteed for eight years. All Japanese cars, and indeed most cars these days, are built to last seven to eight years - any longer is regarded as a bonus. Don't expect to be able to get accurate "cradle to grave" details for cars, because the people best able to provide this information have a vested interest in making the figures look as good as possible. That said, the new Honda Jazz 1.4 i?SHIFT has to be one of the greenest cars available because it is a petrol-engined five-seater that combines 54.3mpg and less than 120g/km of CO2. Nor does it need any of the complicated apparatus required to make a diesel clean."

We all know cars are built to a certain lifespan because that is in the manufacturers own interest. So the topic for debate is whether Honest John is correct in his statement that "most cars.... are built to last seven to eight years"

I know most people here will disagree with Honest John because we look after and care for our cars like our own flesh and blood but..........I think Honest John is talking a the majority of car owners who never look under the bonnet, rarely wash their cars themselves, let alone polish their cars! Only have their cars serviced when they remember (and if they have the money) and generally treat their cars as a disposable item.

Enjoy!

[Boro Sera]

I think it depends entirely on the owner - not the car.

If you see a car as a means of transport and nothing else then you'd probably be less likely to care much about it, just so long as it works. If it's a 'keeping up with the Jones' fashion statement then it'll be sold for something else long before the shelf life has expired.

Sure, things go wrong with older cars now and then, rubber perishes, corrosion tries to take a hold, but it's usually nothing insurmountable with a bit of TLC and determination.

I did read that 70's/80's cars were enjoying a bit of a revival lately due to the fact that they are mechanically very simple, not too computer reliant and easy to fix for the enthusiast/owner. Parts are cheap and still readily available.

Saw an Allegro Estate yesterday - mint condition too ( didn't they come out of the factory already rusty? )

I think, possibly as a side effect of the credit crunch and economic slowdown, that more people will be looking after their cars than before - which has to be a good thing IMO !

[chatman]

Just adding my tuppence to this. Modern cars now are too reliant on technology... I see Fifth gear the other day and the Renault Megane, to change the front headlight bulb is a dealer only service and can cost £££££ having had one of these I know what they mean... I refused to pay the price only the bulb value...Service Manager tried to blame Joe Public for wanting cutting edge technology and design that in the end makes simple jobs a nightmare.... Days have gone where a good mechanic can listen to the engine and determine what the problem is... now he needs a Bachelor degree in Information Technology and a computer system that NASA would be proud off... all just to see what is wrong with the vehicle.....

And this new Carbon C02 will push more people to drive older cars below the thresh hold of the tax.. good thing I say but also has it's down sides.. older cars are not too up there with safety features either...

I loved the Opel Manta GTE, Ford Cortina 2000e I once owned, and they where easy cars to work on......

[Plutus]

Most modern engines will do 200k - especially the german and jap models - if properly serviced.

Things like bushes, shock absorbers, etc will need replacing but the cost is not that huge.

Rust can be a problem with some models but many manufacturers' offer 12 year rust guarantee.

Just look around next time you are out and you will see many cars over 8 years old performing perfectly well.

So I am surprised he made this statement.

IMO the reason most people change is because they can afford or fancy something different.

Also marketing is aimed at new models and new features which are "so much better" than the previous model.

Look at all the 4.3 owners who could be happily driving 4.1 or 4.2 !

[Fujisan]

Just to play Devil's advocate :D

How many people who had 70's and 80's cars ( like I did :P ) remember being on first name terms with either their AA / RAC operator or local garage mechanic? Or spending each and every weekend under the car, trying to keep it running / sorting out the lastest problem?

Was a journey over 100 miles something to thought about before hand? "Do I need to take oil and water, how about a spare fan belt, just in case? "

[Plutus]

Have to agree the cars I had in the 70's were rubbish.

But we are talking about late 90's cars here which are so much better.

One of the benefits of newer cars is that they have all the latest safety systems.

Still think most people change too often though.

[Fujisan]

But we are talking about late 90's cars here which are so much better.

One of the benefits of newer cars is that they have all the latest safety systems.

[Hoovie]

I would say you just need to look around at the sheer number of cars that do not have a current style (two letter) prefix - and hence are over 7 years old at a minimum to see 'Honest John' is talking out his backside a little bit :)

As far as cars in the UK go - and probably in Europe generally.

In Japan, things may well be different as I understand their equivalent of the MOT is so strict, you rarely see cars more then 3 years old on the roads (based on readings, not personal experience) and that is why there are lots of used car imports from Japan as the cars are to dangerous presumably for Japanese roads but fine for ours ;)

Slightly weird comment coming now ....... :D I like to listen to OTR (Old Time Radio) which is radio from the 1930's to 1950's generally - some great Radio Drama programs on at that time and super for putting on a iPod and listening to when driving. But I digress ... lots of these programs were sponsored by oil companies and the like and it is interesting when you hear an original ad on a 1950's program saying things like " .... and don't forget to use XYZ lubricants on those all-important lube points every 1,000 miles" and "Our Stayfresh Battery only needs a topup 3 times a year" etc.

Just shows how much progress has been made - and how much we take our cars for granted!

[cabcurtains]

I think honest John is probably on the button at 7-8 yrs as the average life span:

German and Japanese live for 12yrs

The rest 4yrs

Giving an average of 8yrs

Having worked for car manufactures i can safely say the sales angle now is on style and our materialistic society , safety paranoia, and the slightly dubious CO2 argument.

When its comes to how long your car lives for, i believe one of the 3 reasons above will send the old one to the crusher, not the fact it was un repairable.

Personally i run my personal (wife’s car) until its 10yrs old (or it has a catastrophic failure) and then buy a 12mth old ex demo.

[mollycorolla]

ive owned a 12 year old mazda, an 8 year old peugeot and now own a 10 year old toyota. the first two were rubbish and i'm not being biased her but they were. everything just fell apart in the mazda and the same for the peugeot. when selling them the miles were 93,000 and 91,000. i know i only have my current 10 year old toyota for a few months but i know the previous owner, and he had it the past year and a half and not one single thing had to be done only servicing. its a great car and great for mpg and i hope she'll keep going for the next few years, she has 92,000 miles on her. my mam has a 94 toyota starlet for the past 5 years and like my car, nothing has had to be done to it only servicing! yea theres a few bits of rust appearing but nothing thats major. i suppose it does depent on the driver and how they look after it, but anyway i' m happy with my "old" car!! :D

[zoom jones]

Our new Rav 4.2 is the newest car we've owned and it's 8 years old now! Before it we had a 14 year old MR2 with 112k miles on, perfectly reliable, no rust, just box fresh and we couldn't give it away. I've no intention of selling the Rav for a good few years yet and hope to have many years of happy family motoring in it.

Our old 1990 Volvo 940 GLE estate is now 18 years old and it won't die ever, its made from granite and just runs and runs. Currently on 138k so not even broken in. I still love driving it, its effortless and has fabulous waft appeal with a nice slushy auto box. Again no rust to speak off and not about to fall to bits. It's worth peanuts but I think it's only really coming into its prime! Selling the MR2 for the Rav was for the new family but also so the old Volvo could go but I can't bear to part with it. Not many cars these day have that much character like the old Ovlov has.

My car is a 20 year old Porsche. If anything it suffers from being over engineered and it still makes simple jobs complex for my specialist. Great car, again, no rust and it just keeps going and going.

People need to look after their cars more and they'll last longer. I actually think old cars are cooler than newer ones. I'd much rather see an enthusiast go past in an original Mini or Beetle than one of their modern fake counterparts.

What I think is most important about cradle to grave analysis is the amount of raw materials and fuel that went into making the car in the first place and how that compares to the amount of bits it'll need during its life and how much fuel it's likely to use? I'm sure if cars lasted longer then they'd be proven to be more green than owning say 3 new cars over the same period of time.

As for safer cars, that's all well and good but it just breeds more unsafe complacent drivers as is slowly been proven. Cars cost more to produce, weigh more and people begin to feel indestructible. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need and I know they're now common place but more police, more driver training will save many more lives than an air bag.

[Hoovie]

As for safer cars, that's all well and good but it just breeds more unsafe complacent drivers as is slowly been proven. Cars cost more to produce, weigh more and people begin to feel indestructible. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need and I know they're now common place but more police, more driver training will save many more lives than an air bag.

you make a very valid point, Zoom.

I am concerned about the increasing number of driver aids that seem to remove the most basic tasks from the driver.

Lights that turn themselves on, Cars are actually park themselves, keep to their own lanes by themselves, etc - when a driver who has know nothing else has to either get in a car without these aids or one breaks down in their own, it will be a nightmare!!

I wonder how the average driver with just a years experience would cope if they have to drive an old tank with no ABS and maybe even just drum brakes!

[cabcurtains]

Modern cars have such huge amounts of gizmo's to keep the emissions down etc All these sensors just cost to much when you need one and i suspect getting some parts could be dealer only resulting in no way of buying some parts cheap. Unless of course its off a scrap car then that comes with a whole load of potential disasters. The result being its not worth repairing so it heads off to the scrap man, at least you get paid for it at the moment.

Great point on driver aids, i had an New CRV last year with the following:

Active cruise control - Braked and accelarated on its own - Rubbish to slow to react

Collision Mitigation Braking - Braked if it thought you were going to crash - Rubbish system did emergency stops near parked cars!!

Lane Keeping Assist - Steered for you when it saw the white lines - Rubbish + It didnt work in heavy rain!

Reversing Camera and all round Parking Sensors - Helpfull

All this and the rest must cause a lot of people to get very complacent, add Sat Nav etc etc where will it end!

The best bit of this story is when i got the CRV in Jan, it snowed on the first day and all the above packed up as the snow blocked the radars and the revering camera went black with grime The dash was lit up light a christmas tree

[Hoovie]

out of interest, what is the situation with Cat converters and cars?

I know a new car has to be fitted with one, but if if fails, is there a requirement to fit a new cat or can a non-cat exhaust/bypass be used and still pass a subsequent MOT?

[cabcurtains]

out of interest, what is the situation with Cat converters and cars?

I know a new car has to be fitted with one, but if if fails, is there a requirement to fit a new cat or can a non-cat exhaust/bypass be used and still pass a subsequent MOT?

Thats a good question Hoovie, i doubt it has to have a cat, but the chances of passing the MOT on a post 92 "J" car will be pretty low as the test requires a very low level of emissions to get through it. Without a Cat i cant see many passing, also a lot of Lamba Sensors will get upset with the emissions being high and trigger the EMW Light.

When i had a UK 95' Celica ST 202 GT, it didn't have a cat pipe and it wouldnt pass the MOT with it off, but it would when the was Cat was on. A guy at ATS used to swap the pipe for the Cat for a £10 each time. Happy Days

[Robert6920]

When i had a UK 95' Celica ST 202 GT, it didn't have a cat pipe and it wouldnt pass the MOT with it off, but it would when the was Cat was on. A guy at ATS used to swap the pipe for the Cat for a £10 each time. Happy Days

Gone are the days when you could "pass" the MOT by submitting the right amount of money in an envelope along with the car's details - the car didn't even have to put in an appearance!

[Parts-King]

Cabcurtains: and i suspect getting some parts could be dealer only resulting in no way of buying some parts cheap

Wait till next year when a lot of parts will be for fittment to a specific car, you wont be able to fit it to another, it will be one part one car, it wont work if you fit it to something else, not without specialist equipment anyway........it's coming

Cradle to grave figures for me are a load of old tosh with too many variables. Cost to produce would be a interesting one and cost to dispose of, considering it's recyclability etc

If oils were as good as they are today in the 1970's cars would have lasted a lot longer.........the panels would have fallen off with rust though

Kingo

[Hoovie]

Gone are the days when you could "pass" the MOT by submitting the right amount of money in an envelope along with the car's details - the car didn't even have to put in an appearance!

Not sure what you mean, Robert

I do remember a long long time ago I bought a Renault 12 MOT Failure for £50 and put it in for another MOT at another more 'friendly' garage and paid them £50 upfront for MOT plus 'adjustments' ;)

[Parts-King]

When i had a UK 95' Celica ST 202 GT, it didn't have a cat pipe and it wouldnt pass the MOT with it off, but it would when the was Cat was on. A guy at ATS used to swap the pipe for the Cat for a £10 each time. Happy Days

Gone are the days when you could "pass" the MOT by submitting the right amount of money in an envelope along with the car's details - the car didn't even have to put in an appearance!

There were some people you phoned up, gave them the Reg number and mileage and collected your ticket later with a "cash" envelope..........They never even saw the car let alone MOT it

These days, the moment the MOT tester hits the pass button, VOSA can walk in and do a re-test before the car comes off the ramp. They can sit outside your premises with a laptop and know when you have printed the MOT. Not before time, there were too many dodgy people around at one time. The next phase will be you paying your MOT fee upfront to some government department and getting a voucher for MOT, that way they control the price it is done for with no room for negotiation

Kingo

[Hoovie]

According to old Martin Lewis, best place for MOT is the official Govt places as they have no interest in trying to get extra work by saying something is needed to pass the MOT.

I am very wary personally about these places that do 1/2 price MOTs as I feel there is too much likelyhood to invent reasons for failure!

I'll stick to my (discounted) Toyota Dealer MOT :D

[cabcurtains]

When i had a UK 95' Celica ST 202 GT, it didn't have a cat pipe and it wouldnt pass the MOT with it off, but it would when the was Cat was on. A guy at ATS used to swap the pipe for the Cat for a £10 each time. Happy Days

Gone are the days when you could "pass" the MOT by submitting the right amount of money in an envelope along with the car's details - the car didn't even have to put in an appearance!

I think you misunderstand me, i would go to ATS have the pipe changed for the Cat, drive to the MOT test station, watch the car pass and then go back to ATS and have the pipe put back on and have the Cat removed.

I don't do dodgy brown envelopes thankyou

[Hoovie]

I understood you

[Parts-King]

Hoovie: I'll stick to my (discounted) Toyota Dealer MOT

For now.............

:lol:

Kingo

[cabcurtains]

I understood you

Am feeling a bit more loved now ;)

[Parts-King]

I think Robert understood you too, he was reminiscing about the good old bad old days

Kingo