Mot Refusal

[jibbbbbb]

Took the rav for an mot today at kwik fit and it failed,this is what it says on the refusal certificate ..

REASON FOR REFUSAL OF A TEST CERTIFICATE

001 BRAKE PEDAL CREEPS DOWN WHEN HELD UNDER PRESSURE ( 3.3.B.1A )

when i said it only creeps when the engine is running , i was told it should not creep at all, engine running or not. After complaining and telling the spoty face p--- i think all ravs brakes creep while the engine is running he got on the phone to toyota , he was on the phone for about 5 minsthen, he turned with a smile on his face and glady told me i was wrong , and the brakes should not creep at all . And i would need to have a new master cylinder fitted at the cost of £397 ...then he told me if i can get a letter of toyota saying all rav 4 brakes creeps down when engine is running he would pass the car . i am going to ring toyota my self tomorrow and see what they say to me ..

if it is bad news i am going to fit the master cylinder myself with the help of my farther who was in the trade all his working life ,, ive got a couple of prices one at £98 and another from a breakers yard of £45 but thats of a 2005 model which i was told would fit .. can anyone confirm that for me , or better still can someone on here ie ancorman find the part i need to order and send me a link , dont want to order the wrong part many thanks looking forward to hear your replys

cheers

[anchorman]

I have a 2006 RAV4 and the pedal creeps nearly to the floor if I put pressure on the pedal with the engine running.

The simple test is to switch the engine off, pump the pedal until the vacuum is gone from the servo (it will get harder) and then it should be rock hard and not creep when pushing as hard as you can. Keep the pressure on and start the engine. The pedal will creep almost to the floor. Doing this test will eliminate the master cylinder as you will otherwise be wasting your money.

The brake pedal on most most modern cars will creep to the floor with the engine running - try a few (if it has ABS and brake assist).

[jibbbbbb]

I have a 2006 RAV4 and the pedal creeps nearly to the floor if I put pressure on the pedal with the engine running.

The simple test is to switch the engine off, pump the pedal until the vacuum is gone from the servo (it will get harder) and then it should be rock hard and not creep when pushing as hard as you can. Keep the pressure on and start the engine. The pedal will creep almost to the floor. Doing this test will eliminate the master cylinder as you will otherwise be wasting your money.

The brake pedal on most most modern cars will creep to the floor with the engine running - try a few (if it has ABS and brake assist).

i no my car has ABS but not sure about brake assist, but even with ABS only should the same method apply

[jibbbbbb]

I have a 2006 RAV4 and the pedal creeps nearly to the floor if I put pressure on the pedal with the engine running.

The simple test is to switch the engine off, pump the pedal until the vacuum is gone from the servo (it will get harder) and then it should be rock hard and not creep when pushing as hard as you can. Keep the pressure on and start the engine. The pedal will creep almost to the floor. Doing this test will eliminate the master cylinder as you will otherwise be wasting your money.

The brake pedal on most most modern cars will creep to the floor with the engine running - try a few (if it has ABS and brake assist).

i no my car has ABS but not sure about brake assist, but even with ABS only should the same method apply

Just been outside and done the test as above and it did what you said it would ,, now im even more confussed . dont no where to go from here as kwik fit wont pass it unless i get this in writing from toyota

[gar]

I have a 2006 RAV4 and the pedal creeps nearly to the floor if I put pressure on the pedal with the engine running.

The simple test is to switch the engine off, pump the pedal until the vacuum is gone from the servo (it will get harder) and then it should be rock hard and not creep when pushing as hard as you can. Keep the pressure on and start the engine. The pedal will creep almost to the floor. Doing this test will eliminate the master cylinder as you will otherwise be wasting your money.

The brake pedal on most most modern cars will creep to the floor with the engine running - try a few (if it has ABS and brake assist).

i no my car has ABS but not sure about brake assist, but even with ABS only should the same method apply

Just been outside and done the test as above and it did what you said it would ,, now im even more confussed . dont no where to go from here as kwik fit wont pass it unless i get this in writing from toyota

An MOT is about fifty quid... Go to a reputable tester, get it re-done and if it passes, ask them about the 'problem'. (Do this AFTER you have the paperwork in your grubby little hand). Then go back to KWIK -shi ...fit and ask for your money back or you will complain to the mot testing body and to which magazine, etc!

[TLT]

All modern cars brake pedals will creep to just above the floor if held under pressure with the engine running, more so with a diesel engine because a diesel engine does not produce a vaccum in the inlet manifold enough to assist the brake servo. So a mechanical vaccum pump is fitted wich is engine driven, so you get a constant high volume vaccum with the engine running

Kwik-Fit are incorrect. Go through the MOT apeals procedure, don't have the car retested at another garage as the area examiner will test the car at a vosa area test center, Kwik-Fit will then be repremanded and if any other offences have been logged against that test center number they will be suspended from testing

[bothwell_buyer]

As has been said, MOT test stations are monitored on reasons for failure and lots of other things.

It sounds as if the chap/person has been very careful on the brakes efficiency. However, the kit they have allows them to check the brakes efficiency. How the pedal behaves is, I don't think, a measureable test.

You push the pedal and the brakes should operate to within the constraints.

Goodness- the landrover I acquired needs its footbrake pumped 3 times before the brakes become effective yet it still passed an MOT!! (Mind you that was in Wales!!).

I'd go back and speak to the manager to say you intend to appeal/complain as all oily RAVs do this. Kwickfit seemed to lose its place when it lost its Scottish management!!

[anchorman]

Would any owners who can spare a minute go out and do the above test - particulary if you have a diesel 4.2.

This will give jibbbbbb a bit more confidence to go back and tell KF to snap out of it.

TLT - Welcome to the club. I hope you soon get released (as long as you're not a mad RAV owner axe murderer!)

[shutty]

mine does it but it is a petrol and every Rav I have ever driven does it Petrol or diesel

I also remember speaking to customers about the same issue

Mine is going for test next week but not at Mick Fit

[bothwell_buyer]

mine does it but it is a petrol and every Rav I have ever driven does it Petrol or diesel

I also remember speaking to customers about the same issue

Mine is going for test next week but not at Mick Fit

5 doors

Hmmmmmm - £41.95 ?? :P

[jibbbbbb]

update on mot ,,, took the rav to toyota again yesterday the mot inspector ( a friend of the family ) tested the brakes and told me he would fail them .. so i have had to have a new master cylinder after all . i was told the brake fluid was nearly black in colour , due to wear of the seals on the master cylinder . and one more thing he told me he would of failed the car on the mot before even getting near the car due to the reg number not having the correct spacing ( j1bb x ). anyway took it back to shi- fit today and they past it , which has made my day . just goes to show the difference in the mot inspectors , one would fail it for number plate the other one did not even mention it ..

many thanks for your replys

[Parts-King]

jibbbbbb: After complaining and telling the spoty face p---

jibbbbbb took the rav to toyota again yesterday the mot inspector ( a friend of the family ) tested the brakes and told me he would fail them .. so i have had to have a new master cylinder after all

I presume the spoty face p.... took your apology with grace and dignity?

I look at an MOT test a bit like Refereeing a football match, it is about opinions based on a number conditions. Do the brakes creep/did a foul occur? What action needs to be taken to cure the problem, adjust the brakes? change the master cylinder, give a foul or a penalty? On this ocassion the MOT tester cried foul and sent off your master cylinder, you appealed to your "Friend of the family" (or was it the FA appeal panel?) MOT tester and he confirmed the master cylinder was correct in being sent off. Good job you didn't go to VOSA with your appeal (or is it FIFA) as you would have lost your money, and like your illegal number plates, just because the original tester didnt pick up on them and fail your car, doesnt mean he was correct, a bit like Jose Bosingwa's tackle on Benayoun, the MOT tester Referee failed to take action there as well ;)

Kingo

[jibbbbbb]

I presume the spoty face p.... took your apology with grace and dignity?

na he was not there ,, but your right, i would of apologised with grace and dignity NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT

[anchorman]

But does your brake pedal creep with the engine running?

[jibbbbbb]

But does your brake pedal creep with the engine running?

is does still creep , but no where near as bad as it was before it goes down very very slowly ,, and before there was at least an inch or so of free play on the brake pedal thats totally gone now

[anchorman]

Well it does no harm to change the fluid especially if it is darkened. However, I suspect that as long as the pedal was hard with the engine off, they could have achieved the same by just changing the fluid/bleeding the brakes. Anyhow, the main thing is you are sorted and even if the chance of "dissolving seals" is rather slim you have erred on the right side of caution.

[dawesy]

it could well have been that it just needed a fluid change, it should be carried out every three years as brake fluid is hydrascopic (absorbs water) this then boilds under braking releasing air which will compress (hence the creep and spongee feel) it is possibe that the master cylinder was worn but it would creep engine running or not.

[Parts-King]

So the spotty P..... was correct, the cylinder did need changing???

[jibbbbbb]

As I have learnt over the last couple of years the Toyota rav 4 has many characteristics well that how Toyota put it , for one you get the creeping brake pedal which is a characteristic of the car ( a PROBLEM not my words but the mechanics at Toyota Stratford ) and yet another characteristic of the car is the dual mass flywheel braking down all in all I have come to the conclusion the rav 4 is and it hurts me to say this a poor car , parts are very expensive , and I don’t care what part kings says they are ( no offence mate but they are ) , labor changers are also very expensive . I do love the look of the car and the design but all in all my faith in Toyota has gone... I have all ways own fords up till about two years ago, they to have there problems but parts are cheaper and labor is cheaper,, as the rav 4s have depreciate so much in value over the last year, im stuck with the car for the near future. So if you are thinking about buying a rav 4 think about it very hard you might end up the same as many people on here paying out thousands of pound to put them right.

Don’t mean to have ago at any one on here, you have all been so helpful and the forum is great, I read with interest ever day. But I have come to the conclusion the rav 4 aren’t all that it’s made out to be

[anchorman]

I'm not sure I agree with that opinion although you are very entitled to have your say.

It is not easy for somebody when they have to put their trust in a repair shop to keep the car going. In the case of your brakes, the bottom line is that they all do it. It is not a problem with a RAV it is something that most modern cars do. I had a new series 3 BMW and with not much effort you could press the pedal to the floor - there are many other examples.

The same goes for dmf's and in fact some cars suffer much more. It is not a problem with a RAV it is a problem with the dmf's.

However, when you have to put your trust in somebody and they guide you in the wrong direction it causes nothing but bad feeling. I can understand that you feel rather bitter but I maintain that had you have had the fluid changed long before it was discoloured then the kwikfit guy wouldn't have noticed and might not have made his inane comments. The disolving rubber theory is absurd - does he not realise that the system is full of rubber seals from the master cylinder through the ABS unit to the calipers or is he able to detect by smell a particular type of disolving rubber?

Don't be discouraged by recent events. You have one of the better cars available and hopefully you will have no trouble from now on. I would hunt around for a good local independant to look after and MOT your car in the meantime.

Keep your chin up mate.

[Bodgit-fixit-run]

I agree with A.m. the Rav is overall a great car. Some car manufactures possibly older cars used to and possibly still do recommend changing hoses etc every two years. Personally I have never bothered unless they have been perished or corroded at the unions around MOT time. They've always recomended changing brake fluid every two years which I have always done. It's not a massive job and can easily be done by most car owners if you take your time. You can even get pressurised kits to make the job a lot easier.

Don't let this put you off. Any car has it's own quirks and you can bet your bottom dollar that something will go wrong. It's called Sods law. If it can go wrong it more than likely will easpecialy as cars age. At least if youve owned it for a while you get to know your own vehicle. Better the enemy you know than the enemy you don't.

Any car is only as valuable as it would cost to replace it in the long run. Often it's more economical to repair.

[jibbbbbb]

I'm not sure I agree with that opinion although you are very entitled to have your say.

It is not easy for somebody when they have to put their trust in a repair shop to keep the car going. In the case of your brakes, the bottom line is that they all do it. It is not a problem with a RAV it is something that most modern cars do. I had a new series 3 BMW and with not much effort you could press the pedal to the floor - there are many other examples.

The same goes for dmf's and in fact some cars suffer much more. It is not a problem with a RAV it is a problem with the dmf's.

However, when you have to put your trust in somebody and they guide you in the wrong direction it causes nothing but bad feeling. I can understand that you feel rather bitter but I maintain that had you have had the fluid changed long before it was discoloured then the kwikfit guy wouldn't have noticed and might not have made his inane comments. The disolving rubber theory is absurd - does he not realise that the system is full of rubber seals from the master cylinder through the ABS unit to the calipers or is he able to detect by smell a particular type of disolving rubber?

Don't be discouraged by recent events. You have one of the better cars available and hopefully you will have no trouble from now on. I would hunt around for a good local independant to look after and MOT your car in the meantime.

Keep your chin up mate.

As far as the master cylinder goes the mechanic from Toyota, who was my fathers apprentice going back years did tell me that on my model car this was an issue and Toyota now about this but wont just come out and say it, same goes for the dual mass fly wheel, in fact when it comes down to the master cylinder, on the Toyota avantis, Toyota have even put this in writing to vosa, just to cover there on backs, on mot failures. So you might be able to see why I have had enough of Toyota

[bothwell_buyer]

As I have learnt over the last couple of years the Toyota rav 4 has many characteristics well that how Toyota put it , for one you get the creeping brake pedal which is a characteristic of the car ( a PROBLEM not my words but the mechanics at Toyota Stratford ) and yet another characteristic of the car is the dual mass flywheel braking down all in all I have come to the conclusion the rav 4 is and it hurts me to say this a poor car , parts are very expensive , and I don’t care what part kings says they are ( no offence mate but they are ) , labor changers are also very expensive . I do love the look of the car and the design but all in all my faith in Toyota has gone... I have all ways own fords up till about two years ago, they to have there problems but parts are cheaper and labor is cheaper,, as the rav 4s have depreciate so much in value over the last year, im stuck with the car for the near future. So if you are thinking about buying a rav 4 think about it very hard you might end up the same as many people on here paying out thousands of pound to put them right.

Don’t mean to have ago at any one on here, you have all been so helpful and the forum is great, I read with interest ever day. But I have come to the conclusion the rav 4 aren’t all that it’s made out to be

I've had a lot of Fords over the years as well - Escorts, Sierras, Granadas, Galaxy, and so on

The ONLY car I have ever kept for over 4 years has been

Toyota...... actually 2 cars.

The Previa I had from 1994 to 2003

and my Rav which I have had from new in 1994. And I like it so much I bought a twin to keep it company!!

With my 4.1 RAV4 I have seriously abused it over the years; given it a hammering; and now having fitted a racing engine into it, demanding the rest of the car copes with more than double the bhp it was designed for.

Labour charges? Well I use a small expert garage who charge me a fair rate and do an excellent job. I'm welcomed there anytime, and whenever possible they will sort a fix for the car than buying/replacing with new....unless new is essential.

If I remember my times with the Fords - oh and I had Mondeos as well, they all spent a lot of time in garages being repaired as they just could not put up with my high mileages.

Peugeot ? A few stories there. Renault - ? Even more stories. Citroen - great car but no-one knew how to fix it. And i could go on.

However, the only oily burner I have now is the landrover and a more chronically ill car one could not meet. Spares are very cheap cos the turnover is massive - a clutch master cylinder for £13 !!!

So

If I were you, buy a landrover. Enjoy its fantastic off-road ability ---- marvel at the cheap spares ------------go on holiday with the savings you make by being able to use out of work joiners to fix the car

And the good news is that you will be able to trade your RAV in and buy 2 landrovers to replace it - one for driving whilst the other is getting fixed :lol:

Apologies for any offence taken - none has been meant - its a bit like Jeronimo Clarksons apology I suppose???? :P :P

[bothwell_buyer]

Oh, and don't buy a Ford Transit cos their dual mass flywheel is naff so I'm told.

Avoid the Peugeot 307 cos its brake master cylinder and servo is mightily prone to faults

Avoid Volvos cos they have problems with servos.

Fiat Puntos burn out clutches for breakfast

And a horse & cart is harmful to CO2 emissions as Horse flatulence can be toxic.

And have a check on how many oily burners have problems with the dual mass flywheel concept - dieselly oil burners were invented for trains and generators. Try a Petters diesel engine - these things run for decades so a farmer told me - (think it was some clown in Chipping Norton???)

[Plutus]

I understand your disappointment. When cars go wrong it's always at the wrong time and more expensive than you think. I'm not a Toyota fan boy, just someone who objectively thinks that with Toyota you are getting a vehicle more reliable than nearly all others, with more longevity than a Merc or BMW at a cheaper price to buy and repair.

I've had quite a few Fords over the years (all company cars) and all had major faults - two gearboxes to name but 2. Both my Audi A6's had major component failure after 80k (Audi dealer was useless and would not help - these were my own so they cost a lot). I've also had Vauxhalls (not bad but rusty) and well Mercedes - some pre 2004 have problems with lack of galvanising and the wiring can degrade.

So, nothing is perfect and the grass on the other side is always greener.

Regrettably you have to put your trust in the dealers/repairers and whilst there are good ones there are also plenty bad. (in general I mean)

Hope you keep the RAv.