Oil Sump Re-seal - £230 Quoted By Toyota !?

[Zincubus]

Just passed the MOT today and had an interim service but a few problems were unearthed !

Toyota say that there is an oil leak coming from the sump and it needs re-sealing at £230 !!

We have never notived ANY oil on the flags on the driveway so does that mean it is only a slight leak and not important OR could the leak have just started today when they drained and changed the oil ??

Could it be something to do with today's oil change or have we just to bite the bullet and pay the £230 ??

Any ideas ??

[mrbilly]

keep an eye on oil levels and see how much goes down i think min to max on dip stick is 1 liter you could possibly get the area stem cleaned better if you can get it up on the ramp and clean it then check it again

[Zincubus]

keep an eye on oil levels and see how much goes down i think min to max on dip stick is 1 liter you could possibly get the area stem cleaned better if you can get it up on the ramp and clean it then check it again

Any suggestions as to which type/grade/ make of oil I should be putting in ??

Don't want the cheapest.

[anchorman]

It would be better if you knew what had been added at the last service but 5W/30 semi synthetic is very good quality and will mix with other grades quite nicely.

[Zincubus]

As you can see I am CLUELESS about cars ,

Is it an engine oil oe sump oil I am asking for - or are they the same ?

[anchorman]

As you can see I am CLUELESS about cars ,

Is it an engine oil oe sump oil I am asking for - or are they the same ?

They are the same but you would normally ask for engine oil

[Zincubus]

We have never EVER noticed any oil on our path or driveway so decided to keep an eye on the oil levels ... there is a low oil warning light anyway hopefully.

Anyway , I checked today one month after the service and the dip stick indicated EXACTLY in the middle of LOW --- FULL .

Is that an ideal level considering we have an "oil leak" ???

Should I top it up to FULL ??

The reading was done on a flat road and with a cold engine .

The garage said that I should add 10 /40 oil ... as that is what they use - I presume my Castrol GTX 10/40 will be ok ??

[anchorman]

We have never EVER noticed any oil on our path or driveway so decided to keep an eye on the oil levels ... there is a low oil warning light anyway hopefully.

Anyway , I checked today one month after the service and the dip stick indicated EXACTLY in the middle of LOW --- FULL .

Is that an ideal level considering we have an "oil leak" ???

Should I top it up to FULL ??

The reading was done on a flat road and with a cold engine .

The garage said that I should add 10 /40 oil ... as that is what they use - I presume my Castrol GTX 10/40 will be ok ??

Good for you, that is exactly what I would do until it becomes a noticeable problem. I saw one of these leaks and it amounted to a damp stain around the sump and there is no way I would start tearing it apart for that (as they won't do it under warranty).

If it is in the middle of the marks that is fine - there is no need to have it on the full mark, just don't let it go below minimum.

Your garage speak forked tongue. Although 10W/40 will do it no harm it should have been refilled with 5W/30.;

rav_service_data.pdf

http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=81467

[Zincubus]

Thanks for that !

Incidently isn't 10/40 thicker or better than 5/30 ??

I'd rather have good quality oil in the engine .

[mrbilly]

anchorman do you have one of those pdfs for the earlier rav4 with the 3sfe engine

cheers

[jedi134]

Is Zincubus`s Rav 4 a 4.1? if so it may have to use the thicker 10/40 oil?

[anchorman]

Firstly there is no pdf for the 4.1 I'm afraid, Mr T didn't start putting that stuff out until forced by legislation so they are available for 4.2s and newer. That doesn't mean to say we can't do our own so if I get chance I might put one together but you'll have to be patient because I'm on with all sorts of other things. If anyone wants to have a go I can convert it to pdf - feel free. The recommended oil is also 5W30.

As for oil you need to change the way you think about it. In modern engines, thinner is better. I can remember when I started as an apprentice mechanic the new models emerging were Marinas, Avengers and Cortinas and in those days an engine which lasted 80k was doing well. These days we would all be up in arms if we had a mechanical engine failure at less than 150k and taxis with 500k are not uncommon (although the rest of the car is just about shot and they do not make a "comfy" ride).

What has changed with engines is the very fine tolerances to which they are made and the consistency of these fine tolerances. The engines are fundamentally unchanged but they are consistently made to tolerances that in the 70's could only be dreamed of. So the days of using thicker oil to fill large and inconsistent voids or even attempt to extend engine life by taking up excessive wear are long gone. Imagine a high pressure oil pump working 2 engines. The first is using modern low viscosity oil to quickly achieve working pressure around every nook and cranny but these gaps are tiny and quickly filled. Now think of the second engine where all of the fine gaps have been machined out to create big gaps. It doesn't matter if you pump thick or thin oil (it pumps like a solid in each case) it will take much longer to fill all those voids and if anything the thicker oil will confound the progress by causing fuel deficient friction. If you look at really high performance engines like VW V12s they are on fully synthetic 0W/5 oil and warranties are invalidated if not used.

So - what you want is an engine with very small gaps and thin oil to get around it quicker. Having said that, don't beat yourself up about the difference between 10W40 and 5W30, it is really the operating ambient temperature range which restricts the use and you will see in this chart that both are suitable for our climate. I use the "preferred" 5W30 and I know Kingo recommends and supplies it. The 5W relates to the "Winter" viscosity or cold viscosity. They simply pour some oil down a tilted board and measure how far it has run. Clever technology now allows a "multigrade" oil to combine a summer or hot viscosity. As the oil is heated it changes the structure to provide more reinforcing which affectively stiffens or thickens it to give more support when the engine is hot. These thinner and more viscous oils are particularly good at reducing the amount of condensation as they cling and insulate. They are very good cleaners and flush out carbon and wear debris and more importantly keep it in suspension so it gets drained with the old oil instead of letting it settle in the engine - you don't want any of that garbage wearing working surfaces and other things like timing chains etc.. They positively do not foam and when you consider what a thrashing it gets when the engine is revolving at only a modest 100 times a second (6000rpm) that is no mean feat and absolutely necessary as bubbles do not separate working surfaces. In short modern oil is astonishing technology and if there is one thing that will extend the life of the engine it is regular oil changes. Don't forget these things work under hostile conditions and can you imagine how many billions of times an engine revolves in 150k?

[three5]

Firstly there is no pdf for the 4.1 I'm afraid, Mr T didn't start putting that stuff out until forced by legislation so they are available for 4.2s and newer. That doesn't mean to say we can't do our own so if I get chance I might put one together but you'll have to be patient because I'm on with all sorts of other things. If anyone wants to have a go I can convert it to pdf - feel free. The recommended oil is also 5W30.

As for oil you need to change the way you think about it. In modern engines, thinner is better. I can remember when I started as an apprentice mechanic the new models emerging were Marinas, Avengers and Cortinas and in those days an engine which lasted 80k was doing well. These days we would all be up in arms if we had a mechanical engine failure at less than 150k and taxis with 500k are not uncommon (although the rest of the car is just about shot and they do not make a "comfy" ride).

What has changed with engines is the very fine tolerances to which they are made and the consistency of these fine tolerances. The engines are fundamentally unchanged but they are consistently made to tolerances that in the 70's could only be dreamed of. So the days of using thicker oil to fill large and inconsistent voids or even attempt to extend engine life by taking up excessive wear are long gone. Imagine a high pressure oil pump working 2 engines. The first is using modern low viscosity oil to quickly achieve working pressure around every nook and cranny but these gaps are tiny and quickly filled. Now think of the second engine where all of the fine gaps have been machined out to create big gaps. It doesn't matter if you pump thick or thin oil (it pumps like a solid in each case) it will take much longer to fill all those voids and if anything the thicker oil will confound the progress by causing fuel deficient friction. If you look at really high performance engines like VW V12s they are on fully synthetic 0W/5 oil and warranties are invalidated if not used.

So - what you want is an engine with very small gaps and thin oil to get around it quicker. Having said that, don't beat yourself up about the difference between 10W40 and 5W30, it is really the operating ambient temperature range which restricts the use and you will see in this chart that both are suitable for our climate. I use the "preferred" 5W30 and I know Kingo recommends and supplies it. The 5W relates to the "Winter" viscosity or cold viscosity. They simply pour some oil down a tilted board and measure how far it has run. Clever technology now allows a "multigrade" oil to combine a summer or hot viscosity. As the oil is heated it changes the structure to provide more reinforcing which affectively stiffens or thickens it to give more support when the engine is hot. These thinner and more viscous oils are particularly good at reducing the amount of condensation as they cling and insulate. They are very good cleaners and flush out carbon and wear debris and more importantly keep it in suspension so it gets drained with the old oil instead of letting it settle in the engine - you don't want any of that garbage wearing working surfaces and other things like timing chains etc.. They positively do not foam and when you consider what a thrashing it gets when the engine is revolving at only a modest 100 times a second (6000rpm) that is no mean feat and absolutely necessary as bubbles do not separate working surfaces. In short modern oil is astonishing technology and if there is one thing that will extend the life of the engine it is regular oil changes. Don't forget these things work under hostile conditions and can you imagine how many billions of times an engine revolves in 150k?

Nice one Anchorman - you should write for a living. If we are having a "look after your engine" day, can I add a plea to think about the thrashing that a turbo charger gives the engine oil? The shaft runs at something like 150,000 rpm in hydrodynamic bearings. Running the wrong oil or running short of oil dosen't bear thinking about. If you really need an excuse for checking your oil regularly, lift the bonnet and observe the position of the turbo. Keeping that position in mind, go sit in the drivers seat. Now think, what happens if the turbo goes bang in a big way? Which part of my anatomy is nearest? They can go bang - the manufacturers test them to see the results. It would be very unlucky indeed to have one explode in a vehicle under normal running conditions, but if it runs short of oil, all bets are off! For the same reason, if you have a blast on the motorway and pull into the services for a break, let the engine run at idle for a couple of minutes to let the oil get some of the heat away from the turbo bearing as when under full load it is likely to be about 20mm from the hot end of the unit which will be at or near a dull red glow.

[Zincubus]

Yes our Rav is a 4.1 W reg - year 2000 .

I rang Toyota again today and spoke to a different bod who assured me that they use 10/40 in Rav 4.1's and said it would be OK to top up with my Castrol GTX 10/40 .

Thanks for taking the time guys !

[anchorman]

Hi Chris

Good point about the turbo and again this needs to be fed very quickly upon cold start up. Luckily when a turbine fails the turbo body usually contains all the bits as they are extremely lightweight and not positively driven so it can lock unimpeded but I know what you mean - there isn't much between you and it should it decide to disentegrate!!!

In any case you don't want fragments of turbine making their way into the engine so your advice is well heeded.

There should be a glass cover on the bulkhead so you can see that manifold glow in the dark - it would make a good talking point!!!

It is easy to forget how much we take for granted with a vehicle. All of the main and crank bearings are only separated by a thin film of oil even when for instance you are pulling a caravan up hill there is never metal to metal contact.

[Zincubus]

Just got the local garage to the the job .... £187.00

Job description

Strip gearbox mount / S*ing ?

Strip exhaust and sump , drain oil .

Renew gasket/ seal.

Rebuild and renew oil ( 10/40 Semi synthetic ( comma oil)

We left it in Monday morning and collected Tuesday dinner so that the "seal" could set or dry up or somthing .. overnight .

[Parts-King]

Yep we use 5/30 in our own workshops and 5/30 or 10/40 through the parts department, 5/30 is our most popular.

For the first time ever we are now seeing several grades of 0/20 and 0/30 being introduced, especially on the 1.33 engines, gone are the days of only a couple of types of oil to stock

Kingo

[jedi134]

I was always under the impression that the thicker oils give better protection, when the engine is being used hard, The top racing oils are 10w/50, 20w/50 and even a 20w/60, I also thought that the thinner oils like 0/30, 5/w30 and 0w/20, could not compete in a high performance engine? Although I know they are used in them.

I know of so many manufactures now using these thinner oils, and people are complaining of excessive oil consumption, having to top up every 1K miles or sooner, the manufacturer says this is quite acceptable and nothing to worry about.??? I don`t think so, 1liter of 5w30 Castrol edge around £10? You do the maths.

The reason for the high oil consumption (and I`m talking newish 1-5 year old cars) the oil is being burnt up as it’s so thin. So in my eyes it’s not up to the job, A few people I know have upgraded to thicker oil (10w/40) and the oil consumption has droped dramatically.

Are these thinner oils just so the manufactures can pass stringent emission test etc. I tend to suspect so.

[anchorman]

The thin oil is to get around the thin gaps quickly but it is true that they claim to reduce friction and improve fuel consumption. The reason more oil is used is that it clings like glue to surfaces. Fully synthetic can be really bad but it isn't considered a detrimental thing because it is lubricating all the time.

RAVs have had several mods to the pistons and rings to address this issue and as far as I know the later ones use negligable oil.

[jospom]

Hi all

In italy until a few months ago there was only 10w-40 and synthetic 5w-40 toyota TGMO http://www.toyota.it/toyota/service/assist...io/pdf/olio.pdf Now with DPF and 'available to the 5w-30 devoid of sulfur.

In some oil consumption RAV arrives 1L every 3000km in 1l every 15000km for the first there is a problem and responds with toyota replacement piston rings, pistons, etc. in the second and 'consumption right. Now expect if the new oil will improve the situation

Jos

[jedi134]

That seems like excellent info on the PDF, just a shame I can`t understand it. :P Do you have one in english?

As for these thinner oils, I have my own views about them, Manufactures low cost way to pass new Euro IV emission tests, Much cheaper for them to get the end user to keep buying expensive oil, then them to re-designing new engines. :D

I wonder how thin these oils will get in the future, as 0w/20 is already here I belive?

Just found this too: http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

[jospom]

Do you have one in english?

No :(

Just found this too: http://www.smartsynthetics.com/articles/5w20oil.htm

Oil 5w-30 is devoid of sulfur and not ruin the DPF or fap. oil TGMO <=> It It Ultron ESP Formula P 5W-30

http://www.esso.com/Italy-English/Lubes/PD...ula_P_5W-30.asp

http://www.esso.com/Italy-English/Lubes/PD...ula_p_5w-30.pdf

[jedi134]

Are so its specially designed so that when it burn`s up in the piston bore it won`t harm the Cat or DPF, why not stick to oil that won`t burn up?

Are there DPF only on the newer 4.3 Rav`s?

[anchorman]

Are so its specially designed so that when it burn`s up in the piston bore it won`t harm the Cat or DPF, why not stick to oil that won`t burn up?

Because they don't lubricate the piston walls and rings

Are there DPF only on the newer 4.3 Rav`s?

Only on the T/SR180 and the new SR150