Bad Gear Selection

[redrob]

Hi, We were ever-so pleased with our previous Rav4 that we had for three years from new that we decided to purchase another brand new Toyota Rav4 XTR in Sept 09. Now with only 6500mls on the clock things are not as they should be. We were more than please with our purchase until approx- 2/3 months ago, when we both noticed that things weren’t feeling as good as they did when we first bought the car. We both noticed the gear selection from 1-2nd was getting very clunky, but intermittent! The car also shudders or shakes around 2000rpm. This is worse from time to time. There has also been 3-4 occasions when we have pulled up to either park or stop the car (idling) that the engine was much louder than normal, making a chattering noise (similar to an old engine with off-set tappets but worse) the car was also shaking at this time. When this has happened I've switched off the engine and restarted it. The engine has then gone back to normal idling. My wife has also experienced a dead spot or jolt while cruising at a steady speed on a motorway.

Since these problems were reported to Toyota (Minories) our car has been in for repair. They say they have replaced the clutch and fly wheel. This has made no difference what-so ever in fact its worse. The 1st-2nd gear selection is still clunking, also its more difficult (stiff) to get out of 1st gear and reselect 1st gear, more-so when the engine is still cold.

Monday gone (22/11/10) we returned to the dealer for another test run. but also to say we have noticed a burning smell which is quite strong. The smell only lasts for max- a minute! We have noticed this smell on numerous occasions in the past couple of months but having leather seats we just thought it was the heated seats until last week when we didn't have them switched on.

Our car is going back in next week for repair again, but we are not sure if they know what they are looking for.

Does any one have any ideas or advice?

[anchorman]

Well!

OK you need to undestand that 1st to 2nd is never as precise as we would like it to be but to be honest this is hard to judge without trying it. You could always ask for a run in their demonstrator. Give them the impression you are considering going for the facelifted model rather than compare it with yours. Rest assured that the facelift is just that and it should drive no better than yours.

All I can suggest with the noise is that when it does it you turn everything off, lights heater the lot and just see if that takes the load off the errant parts. You may be able to determin if its the engine or some associated noise like the A/C compressor or alternator. You will still end up with the dealer but you might be able to narrow it down.

Is it the 150 engine with chrome around the front foglights?

[redrob]

Yes its the 2.2 XTR diesel with chrome around fog lights. The thing is that the gears were perfect when we bought the car brand new 14 months ago. Just like the Rav4 we traded in. The crunching is bad, but its intermittent so I'm struggling to prove my point at the dealer. A friend says it sounds like a syncro-mesh problem. Its stared to crunch slightley going from 4th-5th. What about the car shudder and smell, any ideas? I am just after ideas to put forward to the dealer on wednesday! What I have read on other sites the symptoms are so much related to a transmittion problem.

[anchorman]

I have no doubt the problem originates from the transmission but it is trying to determin what is normal. If it has deteriorated from new then I tend to agree with your mate that it is a synchro problem. Has anything else been done since it was new like a service at a garage where the gearbox oil has been changed, any warranty work. Has it happened from a certain time? Does you use it for towing? The clutches make a fowl smell when they are slipping and that would cause your gears to crunch too. Is there any free play right at the top of the stroke or is it firm as soon as you touch it?

Synchros will play up if the clutch isn't right so they can send you hunting in the wrong place. Try to think if anything triggered it.

[redrob]

Nothing been done from new! Only just had its first service done, thats when I first reported these faults. I don't use it for towing, and it's had no waranty work done. The burning smell which has just been pointed out to the dealer, this was there before the new clutch and fly wheel was fitted, but it's still there! Thats if a replacement was done or just an adjustment. How will I know if a new clutch was fitted with the car being so New?

[anchorman]

Well you won't - you'll have to trust them. I would have expected the smell to have gone by now though so maybe they will find another clutch fault. My new RAV can give a little clutch judder on occasions so maybe they've changed something from the last model.

Keep us informed please.

[redrob]

Will do! Thanx for your time and also your info-. I hope I have better news for you after my car has been back to the dealer. Thats if I get to the dealer on Wednesday, theres nearly a foot of snow here. keep in touch! Thanx again.

[redrob]

Had to cancel my appointment at the dealer for Wednesday (1st Dec) due to weather conditions. Not because I couln't get out of my street with a 4x4, but because I wouldn't be able to get in and out with the courtesy car they were going to give me (Yaris). I can not get an appoinmet now with a courtesy car until the 13th Dec.

My report on my situation will now be at a later date than expected!! Flaming Weather!!!!!! What next!!

[redrob]

Just collected my car from dealer today! Well they say they have another fine tune adjustment on clutch, adjusted some linkage, changed the gear box oil "again" and thats about it. I thought every thing was fine until I arrived home. I had to pull over in our street to let the bin wagon pass, when I pulled away and changed to second gear there was that horrible crunch again as I selected 2nd gear.

The car is now back to the way it was before it went into the dealer the first time!!!!

After the first visit to the dealer (new clutch and fly wheel fitted) the gear selection between 1-2 also became stiff and difficult to reselect first gear + the crunch was still there. Now after the second visit to the dealer, the stiffness seems to have gone, but the crunch is still there. So now back to the drawing board! Its driving us mad! We are worried sick that further damage could be caused if this is not rectified.

Do you have any ideas that I can put to the dealer please?????

[anchorman]

OK you really should insist on driving another. When you are completely satisfied AND you have collected that evidence you can approach TGB. You should write to them and detail what has been done and that you have tried another that proved to be as you would expect. Let them know you are not satisfied and that you would like them to change the gearbox under warranty or provide you with an alternative vehicle.

Be polite but let them know you expect it to be resolved.

Don't worry, they usually bring things to a satisfactory conclusion.

[redrob]

Thanks for that!! Yeah I agree, I should of asked for a test run in another Rav4. I will get back onto them! I am feeling as though the service manger thinks I am complaing about nothing, even though he has experienced my fault himself on a test run. I asked him on Monday when I took the car in, what his plan of action was? He just said we will have a tinker around and see what he can find. Surely he should have some idea or suspicions of what the fault may be. He keeps on mentioning the clutch, but its had a new clutch and fly wheel and now they have made further clutch adjustments. I have spoke to a couple of car mechanics, one says its got nothing to do with the clutch, another says synchromesh problem, what do I know!! If I do a comparison test run and that one feels ok, can I insist on a gearbox replacement under waranty or will I have to contact TGB first?

[Craig Simpson]

Thanks for that!! Yeah I agree, I should of asked for a test run in another Rav4. I will get back onto them! I am feeling as though the service manger thinks I am complaing about nothing, even though he has experienced my fault himself on a test run. I asked him on Monday when I took the car in, what his plan of action was? He just said we will have a tinker around and see what he can find. Surely he should have some idea or suspicions of what the fault may be. He keeps on mentioning the clutch, but its had a new clutch and fly wheel and now they have made further clutch adjustments. I have spoke to a couple of car mechanics, one says its got nothing to do with the clutch, another says synchromesh problem, what do I know!! If I do a comparison test run and that one feels ok, can I insist on a gearbox replacement under waranty or will I have to contact TGB first?

Everything you are experiencing is exactly what I'm experiencing about the gear changes, down to the Manager and his condescending attitude.

Craig

[xr650]

got an 09 rav 2.2 180Dcat had a bad situation last year,gear change went really stiff between 1&2 3&4 crunching into 2 badley thought gearbox was blown,under warranty the local dealers found the gear change cables grease had turned to somthing like chewing gum,they did something like clean & re grease ( sounded like crap to me but it worked)they showed my wife this glue like substance so it must have some credance.been ok all year but starting to get a bit worse mow its getting cols again.no smells or vibration just stiff & clunky.

[anchorman]

Listen guys, these are notchy boxes at the best of times. All I can say is - if you can prove that another vehicle is better than yours you might be able to convince them you should be able to expect the same. You have to collect some evidence first to support your case. Then you have to lean on them and not ease off until they do what is necessary to get rid of you. If they prove yours is no different than another you have no case. If you prove it is then you do.

Most gearboxes are stiff when very cold due to the thick oil.

These 6 speeds are very complex;

rav box2.pdf

They were very innovative with this box but the complexity of using 2 countershafts stack against getting clean shifts - especially with the lower gears.

rav box2.pdf

[anchorman]

I've just changed my browser to windows 9 whatever that is and its like looking at this site through fun house mirrors - nothing works :ffs:

[shcm]

Think you got another browser on that machine ;).

Back on topic(ish). I'm certain the box has improved. With -12C down here a week or so ago, I'm sure the earlier box on the XT5 would have bit a bit temperamental 1st to 2nd with the vehicle cold, but this one was fine cold.

[redrob]

I had a XT-4 (56 plate) for 3 years from new, no problems what-so-ever. The gear box was perfect! So what do I do? Trade it in for a new (59) XTR, this was perfect until approx- 2 month ago. I am now thinking its one big mistake. :ffs:

I would like to know if they both have the same gear box????

If a gear box is notchy as standard/normal, wouldn't it be notchy from day one?? Sorry! just a quote!! I'v had the odd car in the past that's had a notchy gear box, but this is not the same!

This problem I'v got started after approx- 10>11 months. Its more of a harsh crunching noise, which can also be felt through the gear stick during 1st-2nd gear selection.

Well!! Av to go - I hope we all get our faults rectified without to much grief!!!!!!!!!

Keep you informed -

Dave

[anchorman]

Yes it is essentially the same box but as shcm suggests your new one should if anything feel slicker (smoother and more precise) than the 56 plate did. I have to say that the only explanation I can give to your particular problem would be a fault with the clutch which is preventing clean changes. The clutch is more likely to change than the gearbox and I would want to know more about exactly what was done. When they say "clutch" do they mean the actual clutch or something from the actuating mechanism.

As I mentioned, mine does sometimes feel like it has a judder which the last one didn't and I know the clutch has a different part no but not how it differs.

Just keep going back until it is sorted.

[redrob]

What the dealer said they had done the first time was a £2000 job, a full new clutch system and fly wheel replacement. This time they said they have done some fine tunning on the clutch, and then said this would slightly adjust the bite point. It doesnt feel any differents what-so-ever!!

Iv just bin on the phone to dealership and requested a comparison test run. Going through tomorrow to test drive the executives Rav4! They said its slightley newer than ours! but what he means by that I dont know. Lets see what happens!!

I have both job sheets if you want to take a look, but not sure how to attach the files on here!

[redrob]

Have a glance at the repair sheet files I have attached, see what you think!!!

[anchorman]

Nice work - they filled it with the wrong gearbox oil. It MUST have straight 75W oil or it will be a cow to change gear. I have posted this so many times recently.

[redrob]

Is that write - straight 75W oil ???

I'v been to the dealer today for a comparison test drive. The rav that I drove was the same as mine, a xtr but a 60 reg with 2,500mls on clock. The gear selection from 1st-2nd on this car was the same as mine. I could'nt beleive it! So I asked to drive another one that was there for sale. This rav was a xtr, a 10 reg with 6800mls.

The following link will take you to this car.

http://minoriesdurham.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/generic_editorial.jsp?navRoot=toyotaDealers&dealerId=06798&fullwidth=TRUE&edname=D_usedcars&catname=null&menuid=59734&zone=-1&id=D_used_cars

Guess what!!!! the same again. I cant beleive that my car was perfect for approx- 10 mths and now its the same as those i'v just test driven.

What Now!!!! The service manager said keep a record of any changes, and to just basically keep an eye on things. If I feel that it becomes worse, to return to the dealer.

One thing thats confusing is why did they replace the full clutch system and fly wheel (£2000+ job) when they could of asked me to do a comparison test drive. (I had to ask them)

Do you think I should request an oil change to what you have said? (straight 75W) Maybe the others I drove today have got the same oil in as mine! I don't know!! All I do know is that it does'nt sound or feel write!

[anchorman]

Well there is no way I would want 75W90 in mine. It isn't right and could cause it to be awkward especially when cold.

The trouble is that the mind is a powerful weapon and it can convince you of all kinds of things. It would have certainly felt better than your 56 plate then if it catches a gear from time to time like mine does, you can soon believe it has deteriorated.

I would want the correct oil in (see the data sheets) which will help in the cold but don't expect a radical improvement.

Try changing up to 2nd soon after starting and take your time pulling it through the gate.

[redrob]

If I take my time pulling through the gate it is better, but it still will crunch intermittently. Its at its worst when I pull away quickly to get onto a roundabout or out of a juction. :ffs:

I suppose I will have to grin and bare it until turned the year, I will then ask them to change the oil to see if this will make a little difference.

Many Thanks for your info-

I will get back with any update

[redrob]

If I take my time pulling through the gate it is better, but it still will crunch intermittently. Its at its worst when I pull away quickly to get onto a roundabout or out of a juction. :ffs:

I suppose I will have to grin and bare it until turned the year, I will then ask them to change the oil to see if this will make a little difference.

Many Thanks for your info-

I will get back with any update