Egr Or Scv Issue

[Windinherhair]

Hi folks.

Looking for your thoughts on this...

About a month ago, whilst accelerating up a steep hill, the Rav cut out and went into limp home mode. The engine warning light came on. I sat at the side of the road for a few minutes, restarted the car, and drove home no problem.

Took it into our local (very trustworthy) garage (by this time the engine warning light had gone off). He ran diagnostics and it indicated an issue with the electronic wastegate actuator, which our car doesn't have (he said).

Anyway, it was running absolutely fine again, so he reset the ECU and told us to give it some good long runs to see if anything shows again.

Well, last week it started having issues. When driving up hills or simply pushing it to go (not necessarily hard) it intermittently loses boost. It doesn't altogether lose power. I can keep my foot steady on the accelerator, holding it at same demand, and the boost can suddenly kick in again. This is happening intermittently, but was particularly obvious on Monday morning after the car had been sitting all day Sunday.

Back to the garage yesterday. They kept it all day, ran it 3 or 4 times, and nothing showed up. They suggest we take it to a Toyota dealer to get their diagnostics done. I called the dealer yesterday and got talking to a very helpful guy in servicing.

From what I told him, and the many questions he asked me, he is pretty sure it's either the SCV or EGR valve. They will charge £55 plus vat to run diagnostics. I can't remember which way around but it will cost a ballpark figure of £300 or £400 depending on which one it is.

Do you think this sounds reasonable?

I saw the pinned article on cleaning the egr yourself. Would these symptoms come from that kind of blockage? We're not very technical with the engine.
Thanks for reading. I'd appreciate any input!

Linda

[Davrav]

Linda, if you are reasonably competent cleaning the EGR will help to rule it out as a cause. It certainly doesn't cost £300 to £400 to do that!

Then go from there.

[Tech01]

I had exactly this on our 2003 D4D - hard acceleration up a lengthy gradient would bring on limp mode. Otherwise, engine was fine.

Finally simply blanked off the EGR (fitted thin stainless steel plate under the EGR valve - a simple job for a mechanic), and the problem is completely gone. Also benefiting by additional 2 mpg.

Search "EGR blanking" for several articles on the topic. Particularly easy on the 4.2.

Chris

[Windinherhair]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Well, the Royal "we" removed the egr (quite easy apart from a rounded nut!), and gave it a clean out.

It didn't seem too dirty, but there was a bit of soot coming away.

Otherwise the valve seemed to be moving fine...if being quite stiff but smooth is normal?

Took it for a good blast last night, and it was running like a dream.

Took it back out to the same "test site" this morning, and it's hitting that flat spot in fourth again.

We're going to fashion a blanking plate, and see if that helps.

If not, I suppose we are maybe looking at an scv issue?

I should have said in my first post, the car broke down in February this year, it would drive and keep cutting out completely. We managed to limp down to the garage. The fuel filter had collapsed internally. They replaced it, cleaned out the air flow sensor and added Forté fuel treatment. (not sure if any of this has any bearing on the current issue, but thought I'd mention it).

Linda

[the fox]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Well, the Royal "we" removed the egr (quite easy apart from a rounded nut!), and gave it a clean out.

It didn't seem too dirty, but there was a bit of soot coming away.

Otherwise the valve seemed to be moving fine...if being quite stiff but smooth is normal?

Took it for a good blast last night, and it was running like a dream.

Took it back out to the same "test site" this morning, and it's hitting that flat spot in fourth again.

We're going to fashion a blanking plate, and see if that helps.

If not, I suppose we are maybe looking at an scv issue?

I should have said in my first post, the car broke down in February this year, it would drive and keep cutting out completely. We managed to limp down to the garage. The fuel filter had collapsed internally. They replaced it, cleaned out the air flow sensor and added Forté fuel treatment. (not sure if any of this has any bearing on the current issue, but thought I'd mention it).

Linda

Have you got any fault codes,

[the fox]

If your fuel filter collasped I would suspect you may have a small blockage, it may be worth looking at, you would get a drop of fuel pressure this would cause your fault at high loading but you need the fault code, you managed to clean the EGR why not try cleaning the SCV's and check the fuel filter housing etc for contamination from the old filter

[Parts-King]

If it is SCV you rarely get a fault code, you need to measure the resistance of the valves first

Kingo

[Windinherhair]

If your fule filter collasped I would suspect you may have a small blockage, it may be worth looking at, you would get a drop of fuel pressure this would cause your fault at high loading but you need the fault code

I just phoned the garage, and they haven't kept a record of the fault code. What they did say at the time, is that it pointed to the electronic wastegate actuator. They said Toyota should have the program to give a more accurate diagnosis.

They mechanic tells me that he will change the fuel filter again if we like, but that the Forté cleaner should break down any particles in the system.

[the fox]

You can't check the resistance under load un-less you have a rolling road machine, the fault seems present under loading,but if it's going into limp mode you should have a stored code, the garage seems to have reset the ECU once, so a code must have been there, this is first thing to check, and if you have to machine you can bridge out two wires of the OBD2 plug and count the code, can't remember what to wires (I have a reader) but it can be found with a little searching...

[Parts-King]

Take a read of the following thread

http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/87986-42-d4d-scv-valve-replacement/

Fault code did not show at first, lack of power, as per OP but resistance was out. Checking the resistance should be the first port of call, easy to do, no rolling road required to check it

Kingo

[the fox]

Sorry for the confusion, I was meaning using the rolling road for checking the fuel pressure under load, I assumed the garage she used knew there was a fuel shortage, thats why they checked the filter, if the code for the SCV's was there they would have changed them, it just seems to be a fuel starvation issue under load, If she gets a warning light and limp home she should most times get a fault code,

[Parts-King]

As with any fault, you should start with the basics, and with a fuel starvation "feel" to the car, changing the fuel filter should be a first, but the SCV issue can be a bit tricky to diagnose, particularly if it does not store a code, or throws up a code which is not much help. I agree though, if it has gone into failsafe, then a code SHOULD be stored, you need that code

Kingo

[Windinherhair]

Just had a look at my invoice for the fuel filter work in February.

"Interrogate the engine management system for fault codes etc"

"Reset fault codes and test"

I guess that means I can't get the code now?

"We'll" try the ohmmeter on the scv valves tonight.

I'll let you know how we get on.

Thanks folks.

[Windinherhair]

Wee update:

Hubby checked the SCVs with meter. There is no leak to ground, and both are measuring 2 ohms.

Car has been driving like a dream again...for now...

I think we'll perhaps blank off the egr, even temporarily, to see if that makes any difference?

If we're looking at a small blockage in the fuel, how do we treat that? Wouldn't the Forte Diesel Treatment (done in February along with new fuel filter) have taken care of that?

Hmmmm

[anchorman]

The easiest way to check is to take the outlet pipe off the filter and pump the black primer button to see how dreely the fuel flows. If you take the pipe off the high pressure pump and place it in a glass jar you can also watch for air bubbles that would also cause problems.

[the fox]

Glad it's running OK, the resistance of the SCV's being OK does not mean they are working, I have had them reading fine but don't work under high loads, they are not hard to take out and clean etc, putting Forte in will not dissolve any filter particles, but I would try blanking the EGR it cost nothing, It can give the effect you have, good luck, or wait for a code to come on it would help, hopefully,

[Windinherhair]

Went to the local recycle centre today and got the stainless steel casing off an old microwave oven.

Hubby has made a blanking plate, using the gasket as a template.

We need the car for a couple of important things tomorrow, so he was reluctant to fit it tonight...just in case...and much to my frustration! "Let's try it now!"

So, tomorrow evening is test time.
Will keep you informed!

Oh, incidentally, the loss of boost has been a bugger again today!

[Windinherhair]

Is this the kind of sealant we want to be using?
http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_173139_langId_-1_categoryId_255217

Should we keep the gasket on with the blanking plate?

Should we apply the sealant to both sides of the gasket and blanking plate?

So many questions!

Thanks and goodnight,

Linda
(off to dream about EGRs )

[anchorman]

I would use a thin smear of this on either side of you new gasket;

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_164909_langId_-1_categoryId_255217

[Tech01]

Linda,

Anchorman is quite right about the sealant - Firegum is perfect for this "hot" area.

If your new blanking plate is decently flat, I wouldn't fit the original gaskets as well. Just use the new plate, with sealant on both sides.

Chris

[Tony Barnsley]

And be prepared for a couple of fault codes to show up . . . . although they may not . . .The EMU may have to learn the new parameters . . . Disconnecting the Battery for 30 minutes and reconnecting it will 'force' (encourage is probably a better term) it to do this from the beginning

[Windinherhair]

Thanks Anchorman and Chris...

Tony, should we disconnect the Battery after or during fitting? (then leave for 30 minutes)

[Tony Barnsley]

Thanks Anchorman and Chris...

Tony, should we disconnect the battery after or during fitting? (then leave for 30 minutes)

The thing is some people report engine fault codes after blanking the EGR and others do not it appears to be a lottery. Generally after resetting them a few times (Handy if you have an OBC reader) then they don't occur again. It's been suggested that this is down to the EMU learning the new 'parameters'. As I said if you disconnect the Battery (and you may as well do it before fitting the EGR blank, as that can count as part of the time) for 30 minutes means the EMU has to relearn the normal running parameters anyway (without fault codes) .. . Of course it will probably run a bit rough while it does it's learning.

[Windinherhair]

Thanks Tony!

[Windinherhair]

Here's the latest...

We haven't yet had a chance to put the blanking plate on (evenings full of Primary 7 proms n whatnot!)

Hubby is starting to doubt whether the one he has made is thick enough anyway. It is 0.5mm thick stainless steel. His fear is that it might blow out under pressure, and leave debris in the system? So he's going to fashion one out of casing from a pc.

The car drove really badly yesterday, and this morning was it's worst ever...just not happy under any demand.

I drove around for about half an hour on country roads and motorway...all of a sudden, it's was like some kind of release, and the car kicked into life and drove like a dream again. Good news is the Engine Management Light has come on.

I think it's time to purchase a reader. Any recommendations? Or would I be better having it read by Toyota themselves for accuracy?

So, 0.5mm stainless good enough for egr blanking plate? And what reader...or to Toyota?

Thanks folks...you've been great with this!

Linda