No Torque During Warm Up / Charge Of Battery

[Nicolai]

Hi all and thank you very much for your help so far.

When the car is cold or recharging my Battery from a very low level of energy, typically in the morning, I feel that there is no torque in the "rev range" before I go into pwr mode. Feels like a rubber band effect (delayed response when press the accelerator). Then, when I have been in the pwr range for a very short time, the torque is normally present in the eco and pwr range again. Sort og like the car can't do charge/ warm up and send much power to the wheels at the same time. Is this normal? when charging from a very low level, the engine noise also gets noticeably deeper ( a bit like a small, three cylinder petrol). Noise goes back to normal 4 cylinder petrol noise when the car find the hybrid Battery charge sufficient and stops charge. I take it, this is normal.

Also, is it normal to have a bit of play in/with your brake pedal? Mine can be moved a bit to either side if slight side pressure is applied. I suppose this is normal too?

Please take a moment to read my other post about no voice directions when connected via Bluetooth: http://www.toyotaownersclub.com/forums/topic/160348-voice-from-google-map-nav-not-sent-through-car-audio-speakers/

Thanks for reading.

[korat102]

My Prius always had that 'limp feel' at small throttle openings when cold. After a few miles it was fine. Can't comment on the charge from low though, my traction Battery never actually got that low.

Just as a matter of interest, why is your traction Battery getting 'low'? The Toyota hybrid strives to keep it within a specified range and normal driving should be sufficient to keep it working properly. What sort of driving are you doing that makes it difficult for the system to do its thing?

Don't think I've ever come across a car that didn't have a few mm sideways movement in the pedals. Those bushes don't want to be too tight, sticky throttles are dangerous!

[Grumpy Cabbie]

The gen3/Auris has a 1.8 engine but it's an atkinson engine tuned for economy (to keep it simple). It only has 100 bhp.

The HV Battery gives a lot of assistance (about 30 bhp) when setting off and accelerating, rather like a turbo in a turbo diesel.

When the HV Battery is low it's not going to be able to give the full assistance and thus you lose upto 30 bhp of power. That's half the amount of a 1.0 Aygo or VW Lupo, so it's significant.

That's why you will feel a drop in performance if the Battery is low or if you go up a very very steep hill etc. Use of a/c on full in slow traffic will also cause a performance drop as does a cold engine generally.

Don't worry about it. If there are no warning lights then everything is fine. You don't come across as the sort of person who drives their car hard so it's unlikely to be an issue for you.

[Cyker]

I would have thought it is normal that it feels a bit weak when the ICE is trying to charge the Battery AND drive the car; The electric motor provides the lion's share of the torque in the HSD and without it, the ICE has to do all the work. Since the ICE was designed to sacrifice torque for better efficiency, it stands to reason it'll struggle a bit...

All you can do is try to keep the Battery charge higher; Abuse the regen braking more - That is the best way to keep the Battery charged! ;)

[johalareewi]

All you can do is try to keep the battery charge higher;

This will happen during normal driving from excess electricity from the HSD (Hybrid Synergy Drive), and regenerative braking.

Torque comes from the electric motor which gets its energy from the ICE via the generator. The HV Battery is used as a float to soak up excess electricity and to provide a little extra when needed. If the HV Battery SOC drops too low, the ICE will run to bring the HV Battery SOC up. If this happens while you are driving up a hill, the electricity from the ICE via the generator has to go to both the electric motor, and the HV battery so the ICE has to rev a bit more. There are limits to how many revs the ICE, generator and electric motor can do (and electricity flow to and from the HV battery) so if you hit any of those, things can go a bit limp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

[Nicolai]

Another question:

My car has NEVER found a left hand side space for parallel parking (although numerous times spaces have been available on the left hand side) whilst it is PRETTY good at finding spaces on the right hand side. My car i LHD but I have been told in an e-mail from Toyota that the car should scan for both left and right hand spaces.... Makes me wonder... The spaces used on the dash to indicate potential spaces ONLY appear on the right side of the car symbol. Will a LHD car not allow parallel parking on the left side of a road (as this would be against the direction of travel?

[kithmo]

Isn't there a setting to chose which side ?

[Nicolai]

According to German site, you need to use the left indicator and then press IPA. Then the car should know that it needs to scan on the left hand side. Will have to test that out. perhaps it works activating the emergency light as well (to tell the car to scan for both left and right spaces at the same time).

[johalareewi]

Another question:

My car has NEVER found a left hand side space for parallel parking

How is that related to no torque during warm up?

You should start a new topic. ;)

[Fecn]

I have noticed the same lack of torque with my Auris - It gets me at the first roundabout I encounter every morning about 0.5 miles from my house... Push on the accelerator for a bit of power and the car slowly lumbers it's way onto the roundabout without putting in much effort at all even though I pushed the accellerator.... and then three seconds later it realised I wanted some power and revs the engine high to deliver. I've only ever noticed it in the first mile of my journey and it happens for me regardless of traction Battery state (my traction Battery is always at full power at the start of my journey due to the pattern of my commute).

A minor annoyance, but still an annoyance.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Without trying to bore you or knowing the exact details, but the hybrid has about 5 different stages of warmup, all to do with reducing fuel consumption and emissions. I understand the official fuel economy stats are calculated from a cold start.

In the first or is it second stage warm up the car will run almost like a diesel electric train using the engine as a generator and the electric motor for movement. If you accelerate slowly (not going into the red zone) then the car will be fine. If you do enter the red/power zone, then the car drops out of that warmup stage and move up one. 'Forcing' it out this way results in a bit of a ***** rather than just letting the car enter the next stage when it wants.

Some of the US owners actually allow their car to sit idling for a minute or two until the car has warmed up a little, before setting off. They indicate it doesn't affect fuel economy too badly and allows for better driveability from the off.

I have 'borrowed' the following from a website, but it gives an idea of what's happening;

   S1:   In Stage 1 the ICE is cold. If not prevented by use of the EV switch,   the ICE will start a few seconds after the car is powered On. Until   the system reaches the S1/S2 transition temperature, the ICE will run   continuously. This accounts for the anomalous observation of electric   regeneration or no arrows (coasting) at the same time as a low   instantaneous mpg reading. No power is being drawn from the ICE, but   it is running. Also in Stage 1 you will notice that Battery power is   used for even mild acceleration. In Stage 1 the HSD prefers not to   draw power from the ICE if it is not necessary. You cannot enter EV   mode while in Stage 1.   S2:   When the system temperature reaches 40 degrees C. the   computer goes to Stage 2 operation. The original Japanese poster gave   more detail than I clearly remember, but it appears that in Stage 2   the ICE will shut off if it is not needed to provide power. At a   stoplight, in S2, the ICE will stop immediately and fairly smoothly.   However, the car will not go into golf-cart mode in Stage 2. It can   draw power from the Battery or it can recharge the Battery, but will   not use the battery without the ICE. I have not ascertained if you can   enter EV mode from S2.  [Update: you can.]   S3:   When the system temperature reaches 73 C. (163.4 F.) the computer goes   into Stage 3a. In S3a the ICE will not shut off unless you come to a   full stop for 5 or 10 seconds. Paradoxically, it is more reluctant to   shut off than it was in S2, and in S3a it shuts off very roughly. You   will feel the car shudder. But once it does shut off at a full stop in   S3a, it will then be in Stage 4 operation.   Once the car is in S3a, if you reach 34 mph without having come to a   full stop for 5 or 10 seconds, the car will go into S3b operation. S3b   is identical to Stage 4, except that if you slow down below 34 mph and   apply the brakes, you will be back in S3a. In S3 you can engage EV   mode providing that you meet all the conditions for EV mode.   I have observed that at the full stop in S3a sometimes the ICE stops   after 5 seconds, and other times runs for 10 seconds before stopping.   I do not know what determines the difference. I have also observed   more than one rough shut-down in a trip, suggesting to me that perhaps   the ICE may sometimes stop roughly in S2, and may not stop immediately   when you let off the accelerator in S2. I repeat that I do not clearly   understand Stage 2 operation.   Coming to a full stop while in EV mode does not seem to trigger S4.   You must be in normal mode when you stop in order to enter S4 operation.   S4:   Stage 4 is normal, full hybrid operation. The Prius is most efficient   in S4. The car will go into golf-cart mode at the computer's   discretion. You can encourage it to do so by lifting your foot off the   accelerator pedal for a moment, and then pressing on the pedal very   lightly. This is known as "feathering" the pedal. Feathering does not   force the car into golf-cart mode, nor is it necessary for the car to   go into golf-cart mode. It merely encourages the car to do so a little   bit sooner than it would otherwise do on its own. The benefit of   feathering the pedal is questionable, since the computer is deciding   when it thinks Golf-Cart Mode is most desirable. Increasing the time   spent in Golf-Cart Mode may only increase the efficiency losses   involved in charging the battery and drawing power from it. On the   other hand, encouraging Golf-Cart Mode when the SOC is very high may   be useful, as it creates head room in the battery to accept charge   wheen needed.   Above 42 mph the ICE must spin, and will generally provide power. It   is possible for the ICE to spin without providing power to the car   above 42 mph, and this has been observed. But since the ICE is more   efficient at these higher speeds, Golf-Cart Mode above 42 mph (Super   Golf-Cart Mode) is unusual. So the maximum speed in EV Mode is 34 mph,   cutting out at a tiny fraction over 34 mph, and the maximum common   speed in golf-cart mode is 42 mph. You can go faster in non-EV   golf-cart mode than you can in EV mode.

Golf cart mode is the same as Milk Float mode in the UK :)

[Fecn]

Thanks for the explanation GC. I'd certainly be in S1 when I hit that first roundabout after 0.5 miles, so that nicely explains why it lumbers acround the roundabout as if there's no power coming from the ICE for a few seconds until the system realises that power from the ICE is actually necessary to continue going up the hill and around the roundabout.

[Nicolai]

Yeah, thanks. Useful information indeed.

[Joseph D]

Thanks for the explanation GC. I'd certainly be in S1 when I hit that first roundabout after 0.5 miles, so that nicely explains why it lumbers acround the roundabout as if there's no power coming from the ICE for a few seconds until the system realises that power from the ICE is actually necessary to continue going up the hill and around the roundabout.

If you need to have power in S1 (now you know that you are in S1) you need to stomp on the accelerator pedal quite deliberately to tell the computer you want power now. If you do that, it will not phaff around as much and give the requested power quicker.

Generally the problem the OP highlighted is that a driver gets used to using the accelerator in the S4 environment (as this is where you will be most often) and in S4 you tend to press the accelerator more conservatively.

Just be aware that stomping on the accelerator will give you a lurch of power, but you will, quite quickly, get used to driving in S1 when power is required.

Finally, the 'borrowed' information posted by GC relates to the Gen II. The tenor of what it says is pretty much applicable directly to the Gen III, except the cutover speeds mentioned (35 mph and 42 mph) are higher for the Gen III -- the lower one I think is around 40-42 mph, but I'm not sure what the higher speed is, but closer to 50, I believe.

I know that understanding 'the stages of hybrid warm-up' helped me immensely to relax and let the car just do its thing.

Three things I have noticed:

1. When you are in stage 3b and you come to a complete stop, it generally will not shut down within the 5-10 sec if you are running the a/c;
2. When you are in stage 3b and you come to a complete stop, it will not suit down within the 5-10 sec if you are in 'N'. If the engine is running when you stop in S3b and change to 'N', the engine will run ad infinitum, so select 'P' or leave it in 'D' until the ICE stops, then select 'N'.
3. If you have been in S4, you can drop back into S3b, if the ICE does (or is forced to) not run enough during the course of normal driving -- usually at slower speeds under the 35/42 mph thresholds.

Hope that also helps.

[johalareewi]

Finally, the 'borrowed' information posted by GC relates to the Gen II. The tenor of what it says is pretty much applicable directly to the Gen III, except the cutover speeds mentioned (35 mph and 42 mph) are higher for the Gen III -- the lower one I think is around 40-42 mph, but I'm not sure what the higher speed is, but closer to 50, I believe.

More info on Gen 3 stages...

http://priuschat.com/threads/gen3-warming-up-stages.76501/

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Actually that link to Priuschat is the one I was looking for but couldn't find.

What I was trying to show was that the Prius (or hybrid) is much more complicated than a traditional car with regards to its warm up etc. These links help you understand it - to a point. I had 80,000 miles of hard driving and got to know how my car runs quite intimately, but even now it surprises me.

It's almost alive :)

[korat102]

That was actually something I didn't like about the Prius. I don't like surprises¹ when I'm driving and I never really knew exactly what it was going to do next. In the 9 years I owned the car, it still had the odd unexpected new thing to throw in my direction.

¹ Well, depends on the surprise I suppose. Rachel Weiss magically appearing in the passenger seat would be an acceptable surprise, though I'd probably crash the car in shock! Otherwise, I like things nice and predictable.

[Nicolai]

Just for clarification: the different stages described earlier in this thread applies to the Auris Touring Sports Hybrid as well, right (as it is the same drivetrain as the Prius I tend to think they do).

[Grumpy Cabbie]

I'd imagine so, or at least very similar.

But with such complicated programming, you can see that tinkering by the European arm might not be prudent. I only recently realised that the Yaris HSD uses the basis of an Auris HV Battery but reduced by 20%. That's a significant loss. Have they changed the programming significantly to accommodate that smaller Battery or just left it alone? Either way it's a concern to me. Get the programming wrong and you end up with issues with economy and reliability and keep the programming as it is from the Prius/Auris and risk it over utilising the smaller Battery and affecting economy, reliability and longevity.

[johalareewi]

One of my friends saw one of these at a UK charging point the other day...

http://www.bydeurope.com/vehicles/e6/index.php

Slighty bigger than a hybrid yaris though.

[Grumpy Cabbie]

Keep seeing reports and articles about how they're being tested here or there or in cab company, but you can never find the follow up article of how well they actually did!

It has a 200 mile range which is more like it. I cynically wonder why traditional car manufacturers appear to restrict their EV models to a 200 km range (about 110 miles or 80 in real life). A 300 km or 200 mile range would be much more useful without the extra cost of a Tesla S. It also gives a little leeway in winter etc where a Nissan Leaf range falls to 50 miles!

It is reported that a Nissan Leaf Battery is about £6,000. So if that were increased by 50% to give a 200 mile range, then the extra cost would be 50% or £3,000. Add £3k to the £22k price of a base Leaf and you have £25,000. Much more useful and still easily affordable and the Leaf does have extra room to put the cells too. Why don't they do this? Maybe it'll take sales away from their traditional petrol/diesel offerings.

So maybe we do need a company like BYD to come along and give the market a more useful shove up the ****. Bring it on :)

Link: http://www.nextgreencar.com/news/6239/BYD-trials-e6-electric-vehicles-in-UK

and a UK RHD e6 test drive review: http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk/blog/index.php/2013/09/06/tesla-model-s-vs-byd-e6-an-unusual-test-drive-mash-up-with-one-clear-winner/