Avensis Starting Problems D4d

[RicB]

Hi , can anyone out there offer any advice?

My Avensis is a 3.5 year old 2.0 D4D Estate with full service history

The car starts first thing every morning , but once warmed up if is very poor at starting taking between 5-10 times to start.

It has been into a dealership who reported that there were no error codes from the diagnostics. They could not be sure what the problem was and offered a solution of changing parts (at ever increasing cost) until they found the problem. Needless to say I was not very impressed. Starting with the fuel filter and housing followed by the fuel pump , and then maybe the starter motor by which time I would be in the thousands of pounds.

I have looked at this forum and there appears to 2 front runners

A starter motor fault with the avensis mentioned by http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66166 But this was quite some time ago.

or the various messages about air in the fuel system. I have tried priming the button mentioned and the pressure is soft initially , but it does not always result in a clean start. I have tried (as someone suggested) replacing the clip on the fuel inlet with a jubilee clip.

I guess there are 2 main questions I have

Can the starter moter be tested to eliminate that as an issue?

or

What really needs to be replaced if it is air in the system?

I would welcome any advice out there - the car has only NOT started once and that was at the dealership , but I worry about long journeys or perhaps inadvertantly stalling the car in traffic!

Ric

[cmia]

Lets help you then!

1) if starter motor problems then you will have issues with

- Clicking noise when you turn key

- clicking noise, combined with a splutter

- slow turning of the starter motor...

2) Possible problem with svc control valves.

- Again, continued cranking

- pumping fuel filter helps.

How to test svc control valves...

well you can take them out and mesure ohm's

You can even clean them...

what kind of noise does it make when you are cranking... is it slow or normal ?

[cmia]

dont go to the dealers, your problem is fuel or starter related.

[RicB]

Lets help you then!

1) if starter motor problems then you will have issues with

- Clicking noise when you turn key

- clicking noise, combined with a splutter

- slow turning of the starter motor...

2) Possible problem with svc control valves.

- Again, continued cranking

- pumping fuel filter helps.

How to test svc control valves...

well you can take them out and mesure ohm's

You can even clean them...

what kind of noise does it make when you are cranking... is it slow or normal ?

--------------

Thanks for the prompt response

Starter.

You need to hold the key hard and long in the start position to get it started , it seems to shudder and is laboured , but I did not notice clicks!

I will try to listen more carefully next time.

The Fuel pressure

The Garage said pumping of the filter helped but then could not get the car started!

They said they had drained the Battery and did not allow me to see how they started it but suggested a good charge would help

Last time it struggled to start I opened the bonnet and primed the filter , it did not start any better (that time) . Should the buttom always be firm?

I do not know where the SVCs are or how to change them Is there anywhere I could get a book ? see Haynes do not have a newer Avensis book yet.

Thanks

Ric

[cmia]

Ok...

pushing the fuel filter primer ....

will damage the filter if it is pushed to hard.

If they started it will continous cranking, they might as well have started to damage components.

(ie cat)

you did not answer - if the starter was spining slowly ? on a good charge Battery.

[davestringer]

Hi , can anyone out there offer any advice?

My Avensis is a 3.5 year old 2.0 D4D Estate with full service history

The car starts first thing every morning , but once warmed up if is very poor at starting taking between 5-10 times to start.

It has been into a dealership who reported that there were no error codes from the diagnostics. They could not be sure what the problem was and offered a solution of changing parts (at ever increasing cost) until they found the problem. Needless to say I was not very impressed. Starting with the fuel filter and housing followed by the fuel pump , and then maybe the starter motor by which time I would be in the thousands of pounds.

I have looked at this forum and there appears to 2 front runners

A starter motor fault with the avensis mentioned by http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66166 But this was quite some time ago.

or the various messages about air in the fuel system. I have tried priming the button mentioned and the pressure is soft initially , but it does not always result in a clean start. I have tried (as someone suggested) replacing the clip on the fuel inlet with a jubilee clip.

I guess there are 2 main questions I have

Can the starter moter be tested to eliminate that as an issue?

or

What really needs to be replaced if it is air in the system?

I would welcome any advice out there - the car has only NOT started once and that was at the dealership , but I worry about long journeys or perhaps inadvertantly stalling the car in traffic!

Ric

Ric, I just fixed mine so here is what I experienced. The car started OK most of the time from cold but not hot. When hot, it would take several goes to start. On each of these goes, it sounded like a petrol car would if it had poor ignition. It sort of coughed and spluttered a bit as if it was going to start but didn't. I changed the glow plugs with no effect. Eventually bit the bullet and bought a new starter motor from Manchester Auto Electrical for £80 plus £10 delivery (via ebay). Fitted it myself in about an hour. Since then, starts perfectly from cold and hot every time. I also noticed that the new starter turns the engine over much faster. Now, I see that several people ask you if the starter turns slow. If anybody had asked me that, about the old starter, I would have said no! I suppose I had got used to it and it didn't sound especially slow. But the new one does sound a LOT faster. So I would suggest that unless the starter sounds as if its turning the engine really fast, its the starter.

Dave

[igormus]

Hi , can anyone out there offer any advice?

My Avensis is a 3.5 year old 2.0 D4D Estate with full service history

The car starts first thing every morning , but once warmed up if is very poor at starting taking between 5-10 times to start.

It has been into a dealership who reported that there were no error codes from the diagnostics. They could not be sure what the problem was and offered a solution of changing parts (at ever increasing cost) until they found the problem. Needless to say I was not very impressed. Starting with the fuel filter and housing followed by the fuel pump , and then maybe the starter motor by which time I would be in the thousands of pounds.

I have looked at this forum and there appears to 2 front runners

A starter motor fault with the avensis mentioned by http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66166 But this was quite some time ago.

or the various messages about air in the fuel system. I have tried priming the button mentioned and the pressure is soft initially , but it does not always result in a clean start. I have tried (as someone suggested) replacing the clip on the fuel inlet with a jubilee clip.

I guess there are 2 main questions I have

Can the starter moter be tested to eliminate that as an issue?

or

What really needs to be replaced if it is air in the system?

I would welcome any advice out there - the car has only NOT started once and that was at the dealership , but I worry about long journeys or perhaps inadvertantly stalling the car in traffic!

Ric

Hello RIC

As to the starter -- it has twoo or three points for checking;

As to an air in fuel injection system ---- you can change filter many tiimes; pump it by booster ---- but as vissible this is not cure.

Look --- you must to know that a normal or even oil resist rubber seals fine unless it will be deteriorated due to service time giving some rubber cracks especially in the hose bands. Myy advise is to be focused on these rubber hoses condition ---- sometimes you have done all your best but the problem is still exist. Another problem might be with booster diaphragm or conections on the lid. Besides --- you have to inspect all steel tubes responsible for fuel supply/returning line ----- if they are rorughly corroded -- the air might be sucted into the line.Investigate it, as well.

Cheers/Igor

[RicB]

sorry for the delay , I thought I would try to record the starter sound to see what people think

Be intouch shortly.

Ric

FYI and IGORMUS the dealer insisted on changing the fuel filter (as a possible cause) and claimed that the service garage (toyota but not them) had not put a seal in so the filter and seals are brand new. My car has 46K so I did not think the pipes would be corroded yet!

Ric

Ok...

pushing the fuel filter primer ....

will damage the filter if it is pushed to hard.

If they started it will continous cranking, they might as well have started to damage components.

(ie cat)

you did not answer - if the starter was spining slowly ? on a good charge battery.

[igormus]

sorry for the delay , I thought I would try to record the starter sound to see what people think

Be intouch shortly.

Ric

FYI and IGORMUS the dealer insisted on changing the fuel filter (as a possible cause) and claimed that the service garage (toyota but not them) had not put a seal in so the filter and seals are brand new. My car has 46K so I did not think the pipes would be corroded yet!

Ric

Ok...

pushing the fuel filter primer ....

will damage the filter if it is pushed to hard.

If they started it will continous cranking, they might as well have started to damage components.

(ie cat)

you did not answer - if the starter was spining slowly ? on a good charge battery.

please up date developments after that

cheers/Igor

[RicB]

Hi Davestringer , could you take a listen to the attached video (only way I could record the sound) and give me your view?

Ric

Hi , can anyone out there offer any advice?

My Avensis is a 3.5 year old 2.0 D4D Estate with full service history

The car starts first thing every morning , but once warmed up if is very poor at starting taking between 5-10 times to start.

It has been into a dealership who reported that there were no error codes from the diagnostics. They could not be sure what the problem was and offered a solution of changing parts (at ever increasing cost) until they found the problem. Needless to say I was not very impressed. Starting with the fuel filter and housing followed by the fuel pump , and then maybe the starter motor by which time I would be in the thousands of pounds.

I have looked at this forum and there appears to 2 front runners

A starter motor fault with the avensis mentioned by http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66166 But this was quite some time ago.

or the various messages about air in the fuel system. I have tried priming the button mentioned and the pressure is soft initially , but it does not always result in a clean start. I have tried (as someone suggested) replacing the clip on the fuel inlet with a jubilee clip.

I guess there are 2 main questions I have

Can the starter moter be tested to eliminate that as an issue?

or

What really needs to be replaced if it is air in the system?

I would welcome any advice out there - the car has only NOT started once and that was at the dealership , but I worry about long journeys or perhaps inadvertantly stalling the car in traffic!

Ric

Ric, I just fixed mine so here is what I experienced. The car started OK most of the time from cold but not hot. When hot, it would take several goes to start. On each of these goes, it sounded like a petrol car would if it had poor ignition. It sort of coughed and spluttered a bit as if it was going to start but didn't. I changed the glow plugs with no effect. Eventually bit the bullet and bought a new starter motor from Manchester Auto Electrical for £80 plus £10 delivery (via ebay). Fitted it myself in about an hour. Since then, starts perfectly from cold and hot every time. I also noticed that the new starter turns the engine over much faster. Now, I see that several people ask you if the starter turns slow. If anybody had asked me that, about the old starter, I would have said no! I suppose I had got used to it and it didn't sound especially slow. But the new one does sound a LOT faster. So I would suggest that unless the starter sounds as if its turning the engine really fast, its the starter.

Dave

[RicB]

Hi

I have posted a vid of the car trying to start.in the Davestringer reply

Ric

Hi , can anyone out there offer any advice?

My Avensis is a 3.5 year old 2.0 D4D Estate with full service history

The car starts first thing every morning , but once warmed up if is very poor at starting taking between 5-10 times to start.

It has been into a dealership who reported that there were no error codes from the diagnostics. They could not be sure what the problem was and offered a solution of changing parts (at ever increasing cost) until they found the problem. Needless to say I was not very impressed. Starting with the fuel filter and housing followed by the fuel pump , and then maybe the starter motor by which time I would be in the thousands of pounds.

I have looked at this forum and there appears to 2 front runners

A starter motor fault with the avensis mentioned by http://toyotaownersclub.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=66166 But this was quite some time ago.

or the various messages about air in the fuel system. I have tried priming the button mentioned and the pressure is soft initially , but it does not always result in a clean start. I have tried (as someone suggested) replacing the clip on the fuel inlet with a jubilee clip.

I guess there are 2 main questions I have

Can the starter moter be tested to eliminate that as an issue?

or

What really needs to be replaced if it is air in the system?

I would welcome any advice out there - the car has only NOT started once and that was at the dealership , but I worry about long journeys or perhaps inadvertantly stalling the car in traffic!

Ric

[Laimis]

Hi , can anyone out there offer any advice?

Just an idea. mine Avensis is being checked because of another problem but one check may sound interesting for you.

Mechanic checked fuel pressure using Avensis data link socket. I told this fact because what electronics reports and what reality is may differ.

However the computer reported that fuel pressure rises fast when starting. I was told that this is good because common rail can start only when fuel pressure is sufficiently high. For that reason common rail takes more time to start: fuel pump has to build the pressure before everything starts to roll.

this must be one of the reasons why air in the system is bad.

just my 2cents.

[davestringer]

Hi, I couldn't see any attached video.

[RicB]

Dave,

Sorry I thought the file had uploaded but I've tried again (twice) it does not seem to work , not good , can't start the car , cant upload videos!!! what next...

Seriously, the car does seem to struggle to start so it could the be starter motor , there was another post saying almost exacly the same as you did.

So I may just do this to eliminate it!!

Did you need any special tools or a pit to do the job? I used to look after my old cars 30 years ago but I've not worked on them for w while.

I have ramps and spanners and a socket set. I guess space can also be tight? did you have to disconnect or move anything else to do the job?

It maybe nothing - but it has been starting better in the last few days , perhaps because I give the glow longer after the light is out and I depress the acc pedal a few times , it tends to start 1, 2 or 3rd shot. It could just be coincidence or the warm weather here in Scotland!!

Regards

Ric

[RicB]

sorry for the delay , I thought I would try to record the starter sound to see what people think

Be intouch shortly.

Ric

FYI and IGORMUS the dealer insisted on changing the fuel filter (as a possible cause) and claimed that the service garage (toyota but not them) had not put a seal in so the filter and seals are brand new. My car has 46K so I did not think the pipes would be corroded yet!

Ric

Ok...

pushing the fuel filter primer ....

will damage the filter if it is pushed to hard.

If they started it will continous cranking, they might as well have started to damage components.

(ie cat)

you did not answer - if the starter was spining slowly ? on a good charge battery.

please up date developments after that

cheers/Igor

Igormus - the starter is turning slowly. I may repalce it to eliminate it. I will look at the pipe work for the fuel supply to check for leaks and corrosion etc..

I don't know what or where the SCV is and have no book to help me! Sorry I'm not a mechanic. Also are there 2 fuel filters (fine and normal) or just one , if only one it has been replaced 2 weeks ago with new seals.

The car seems to be starting a little better this week , I turn the ignition key and wait for a while (sometimes on and off twice) without starting it to let the glow light go off for a minute. I also push the accelerator pedal a few times and it starts 1 , 2 or 3rd time . Could be coincidence or maybe the warm weather in Scotland thes week!!

Thanks for you continued help and advice

RicB

[igormus]

Igormus - the starter is turning slowly. I may repalce it to eliminate it. I will look at the pipe work for the fuel supply to check for leaks and corrosion etc..

I don't know what or where the SCV is and have no book to help me! Sorry I'm not a mechanic. Also are there 2 fuel filters (fine and normal) or just one , if only one it has been replaced 2 weeks ago with new seals.

The car seems to be starting a little better this week , I turn the ignition key and wait for a while (sometimes on and off twice) without starting it to let the glow light go off for a minute. I also push the accelerator pedal a few times and it starts 1 , 2 or 3rd time . Could be coincidence or maybe the warm weather in Scotland thes week!!

Thanks for you continued help and advice

RicB

Hi RicB

-the starter is turning slowly. -----> check with Battery voltage; check with grease availability in the bearings bushes.

-just have the HP pump located -- you'll see one or two plastic contact mounted in this pump --- these are contacts for SCV (normally shut off)-----each valve has solenoid that might be tested easily.

- there are fine and primer fuel filters available -- the primer one is mounted inside the fuel tank, with strainer mesh more than in fine fuel filter --- this enablles to serve more than 100k (as scheduled) ---- as far as I understood you've changed the fine filter. WHen chenged -- one was to pay atentiono on the all O-rings positionning. The air might only be sucted to the injection system from either small micro hole (not vissible by eye)

Cheers/Igor

[RicB]

Thats the problem sorted thanks :)

The Answer

Appears to be a new Starter Motor , fitted today and after a 90mile drive it started first time.

The starter does seem to turn faster.

Summary and warning!

Local Toyota Dealer

Reported No diagnostic warning errors - £50

Changed fuel filter as it may not have been changed at the last service - £30, no difference made

Next suggested replacement of filter housing Cica £200 , no guarantee to fix the problem.

This would be followed by replacement fuel pump and pipes at circa £1500 , if housing did not fix the problem.

Needless to say I was uncomfortable with this guesswork approach at my cost.

Two examples on this site suggested the started Motor

Eventually the car let me down and I had to call out the RAC who hinted it could be the filter housing.

So my local garage replaced the filter housing £80 , this did not make any difference

Same garage replaced the starter motor £320 this appears to have sorted the problem.

I dread to think how much my bill would have been at the Toyota dealer by the time they eventually got to the starter motor!!!

Waiting for the RAC in -5C that night , I really started to consider maybe Golf would be a better option!!

Regards for your help

Eric